|
On March 25 2012 05:08 Genetic wrote:
Finished rank 7 masters last season as Terran.
This season, I'll be lucky if I hold top 20, and that'll probably just because of shear number of games played.
I don't know what to say. I understand at the top tier level Terrans seem to be doing okay (I think anyways?), but at my level, I am finding the game impossible. If I had another game to play, I'd quit SC2 until a better patch or HoTs comes out. As it is, Protoss and Zerg race mechanics rape Terran.
My personal opinions:
Zerg - Remaxes way too easily, and quickly. Additionally, broodlords have no counter. If the Zerg has good control, he can micro those infestors with lings, press forward with the broodlords, and once the tank line goes, the game is over.
Protoss - Can do whatever the hell they want generally lol Can go Nexus first, and even if you scout it, unless you have a second Rax already on the way, there isn't anything you can do about it. If you decide to go CC first though, the Protoss can easily end you in a heart beat. Why is that fair? Then in the late game lol... oh man the late game. Colossi/HT/Archon with 30 food instant warp ins... LOL It makes so sense at all. None. EMP all day, again, if the Protoss isn't a retard, you won't be able to EMP all of the HT. 3 storms later plus colossi and u the warp in mechanic, and you can qq all day long.
I'm tempted to start a petition to have David Kim fired from balancing SC2. Extremely shitty job.
You only see what beats you as terran and you need to look at things from the opponents point of view. For example: nexus first is punishable as ling as you have taken gas. But you should not be making a second rax to punish it. You should be making a factory to punish it.
|
On March 25 2012 06:48 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 05:08 Genetic wrote:
Finished rank 7 masters last season as Terran.
This season, I'll be lucky if I hold top 20, and that'll probably just because of shear number of games played.
I don't know what to say. I understand at the top tier level Terrans seem to be doing okay (I think anyways?), but at my level, I am finding the game impossible. If I had another game to play, I'd quit SC2 until a better patch or HoTs comes out. As it is, Protoss and Zerg race mechanics rape Terran.
My personal opinions:
Zerg - Remaxes way too easily, and quickly. Additionally, broodlords have no counter. If the Zerg has good control, he can micro those infestors with lings, press forward with the broodlords, and once the tank line goes, the game is over.
Protoss - Can do whatever the hell they want generally lol Can go Nexus first, and even if you scout it, unless you have a second Rax already on the way, there isn't anything you can do about it. If you decide to go CC first though, the Protoss can easily end you in a heart beat. Why is that fair? Then in the late game lol... oh man the late game. Colossi/HT/Archon with 30 food instant warp ins... LOL It makes so sense at all. None. EMP all day, again, if the Protoss isn't a retard, you won't be able to EMP all of the HT. 3 storms later plus colossi and u the warp in mechanic, and you can qq all day long.
I'm tempted to start a petition to have David Kim fired from balancing SC2. Extremely shitty job. You only see what beats you as terran and you need to look at things from the opponents point of view. For example: nexus first is punishable as ling as you have taken gas. But you should not be making a second rax to punish it. You should be making a factory to punish it.
You can't just punish a nexus first by taking a gas. The best thing to do is to 5 rax scv all in. They should almost never be able to hold. Don't try to kill the nexus but go straight into their main. You just scout around 14 supply and on most maps you should be in time to scout the nexus first and still be able to throw down 4 rax instead of a command center(if you were gonna 1 rax FE that is)
|
On March 25 2012 06:05 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 05:43 Yosho wrote:On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote:One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler +Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... You just made my favorite post too, for showing that most people that post here aren't actually reading and just skimming things then making half assed arguments. Read more carefully. I stated that MORE TOP koreans play terran. Yes they play all 3 races... I never implied they didn't. Let me present a scenario for you. Suppose a game has 2 races, one is the same as the other, except it does 100 more damage with every unit. Which race will have more top players? Probably the OP race. So saying that a race is better than another because it has more top players is just silly. Clearly an OP race will have more top players, but instead you are arguing that the OP races players are better because they have more top players.
In my experience that is actually not true.
It is a bit hard to say in starcraft as the races are very closely balanced (give or take a few percent). In Age of Mythology there was no doubt which of the 9 or 12 'races' was overpowered in any given patch era. It was so imbalanced that players did not even try to argue about it. Yet, the most powerful race was probably not the most played.
|
On March 25 2012 06:50 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 06:48 hzflank wrote:On March 25 2012 05:08 Genetic wrote:
Finished rank 7 masters last season as Terran.
This season, I'll be lucky if I hold top 20, and that'll probably just because of shear number of games played.
I don't know what to say. I understand at the top tier level Terrans seem to be doing okay (I think anyways?), but at my level, I am finding the game impossible. If I had another game to play, I'd quit SC2 until a better patch or HoTs comes out. As it is, Protoss and Zerg race mechanics rape Terran.
My personal opinions:
Zerg - Remaxes way too easily, and quickly. Additionally, broodlords have no counter. If the Zerg has good control, he can micro those infestors with lings, press forward with the broodlords, and once the tank line goes, the game is over.
Protoss - Can do whatever the hell they want generally lol Can go Nexus first, and even if you scout it, unless you have a second Rax already on the way, there isn't anything you can do about it. If you decide to go CC first though, the Protoss can easily end you in a heart beat. Why is that fair? Then in the late game lol... oh man the late game. Colossi/HT/Archon with 30 food instant warp ins... LOL It makes so sense at all. None. EMP all day, again, if the Protoss isn't a retard, you won't be able to EMP all of the HT. 3 storms later plus colossi and u the warp in mechanic, and you can qq all day long.
I'm tempted to start a petition to have David Kim fired from balancing SC2. Extremely shitty job. You only see what beats you as terran and you need to look at things from the opponents point of view. For example: nexus first is punishable as ling as you have taken gas. But you should not be making a second rax to punish it. You should be making a factory to punish it. You can't just punish a nexus first by taking a gas. The best thing to do is to 5 rax scv all in. They should almost never be able to hold. Don't try to kill the nexus but go straight into their main. You just scout around 14 supply and on most maps you should be in time to scout the nexus first and still be able to throw down 4 rax instead of a command center(if you were gonna 1 rax FE that is)
Not taking gas. As long as you have already taken the gas so you can start a factory shortly after the barracks finishes. A nexus first delays the core enough for hellions to do terrible things.
|
Apologies for harping on a discussion from a few pages back, but it's quite irritating to me when the players who advocate mech TvP are shot down as being stupid or unknowledgeable.
GoOdy-style pure mech has been discredited, but players like ThorZain have plenty of success against Protoss going mech/bio hybrid. Even if that weren't the case, that doesn't mean there will never be a shift in the metagame. Remember SaviOr in Brood War? The adage for him was that "it doesn't matter what you do, he'll just 3hatch and kill you." There wasn't a massive patch that changed it -- it's just Bisu invented a way of using a synergy of corsairs and DTs that were never used like that before, and then Bisu 3-0'd SaviOr at the 2007 MSL, who was previously considered invincible.
What I'm saying is, just because our current Terran icons like MVP and Jjakji don't go late-game mech TvP, doesn't mean it's an unusable style.
|
On March 25 2012 06:59 LightSpectra wrote:
Apologies for harping on a discussion from a few pages back, but it's quite irritating to me when the players who advocate mech TvP are shot down as being stupid or unknowledgeable.
GoOdy-style pure mech has been discredited, but players like ThorZain have plenty of success against Protoss going mech/bio hybrid. Even if that weren't the case, that doesn't mean there will never be a shift in the metagame. Remember SaviOr in Brood War? The adage for him was that "it doesn't matter what you do, he'll just 3hatch and kill you." There wasn't a massive patch that changed it -- it's just Bisu invented a way of using a synergy of corsairs and DTs that were never used like that before, and then Bisu 3-0'd SaviOr at the 2007 MSL, who was previously considered invincible.
What I'm saying is, just because our current Terran icons like MVP and Jjakji don't go late-game mech TvP, doesn't mean it's an unusable style.
Ok, well until a player comes along and revolutionizes mech in TvP, we will continue to consider it not worthwhile. Blizz themselves have acknowledged mech's inability to compete against Protoss. It's gonna take a lot more than an EU mid masters player to convince me that mech is viable. Yes, there is the player Lyyna who has begun to write a guide to mech in TvP but honestly, my first impression is that a lot of his success is attributed to the fact that Protoss TvP metagame right now is geared 100% for dealing with bio.
|
On March 25 2012 06:32 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 06:24 oxxo wrote:On March 25 2012 06:05 convention wrote:On March 25 2012 05:43 Yosho wrote:On March 25 2012 05:24 convention wrote:One game I would recommend watching is Thorzain v MC game 2. + Show Spoiler +Thorzain didn't kite in any of the battles, and rolled over MCs army. Similar to what Naruto was saying, he had lots of ghosts, put his marauders in front of the rines, and spammed emp. He wasn't ahead on bases, or army supply, he didn't do a 300+ APM battle that everyone is complaining about. And SupLilson: Big J probably has some of the best posts in this entire thread, he really doesn't deserved to constantly be flamed. There is way too much garbage posting in this thread for you to even consider his bad. How many posts say something along the lines "I have 70% TvZ, 30% TvP, so clearly TvP is imbalance, but TvZ is not"? Or my favorite one from Yosho about how terrans are just better because koreans play terrans... why not call that post out? Last I checked, koreans play all 3 races... You just made my favorite post too, for showing that most people that post here aren't actually reading and just skimming things then making half assed arguments. Read more carefully. I stated that MORE TOP koreans play terran. Yes they play all 3 races... I never implied they didn't. Let me present a scenario for you. Suppose a game has 2 races, one is the same as the other, except it does 100 more damage with every unit. Which race will have more top players? Probably the OP race. So saying that a race is better than another because it has more top players is just silly. Clearly an OP race will have more top players, but instead you are arguing that the OP races players are better because they have more top players. And that scenario doesn't apply because the races do not play the same. Players have race preferences based on play style or other factors (T being popular in Korea BW, Boxer etc.). The scenario does apply to what Yosho was saying: Show nested quote +
When it comes down to it, most of the korean terrans are SEVERALLY BETTER then the other koreans at their race. Terran isn't winning because it's balanced. They are winning because they OUT PLAY their opponent every game. They are just that much better.
No it doesn't apply at all, are you reading everything? seriously? There are more korean pro's that play terran then any other race. Do you know why? I mean do you try to comprehend what we are saying, discussing at all? Do you simply try to make points without really putting much effort into your post? Why are you posting here?
Terran WAS the overpowered race at launch, A lot of korean pro's looked and said oh wow, I have the best potential to make money here as terran. Over the months Terran got nurfed. But to re learn a whole new race, the whole new sense and playstyle as a different race takes time. A lot of time... Especially at the highest levels. Why would they switch when it hurts their growth and they have spent months of investment on what they know now? They just try to work through it. A lot of them can't in specific scenario's. They make the best of a bad situation. Like idra who always felt like zerg had amazing potential but felt Terran was too strong he stuck with zerg because of the HUGE investment and playstyle likes.
Many korean pro's feel this same way. That is why there are MORE TERRAN KOREAN PRO'S THEN ANY OTHER RACE. Can I make it larger so you can understand? Could you re read this a few times before you post? Think about it, sip some coffee. As for me I am done posting in this thread. I've tried to make it very clear with numbers and facts and information for most of the people in bronze league why this is so. Peace.
|
What you forget when you mentioned BW is to quote the date of last balance patch before that 2007 final? How many years?
Until Blizard overnerfed terran with the latest two patches did you hear those complaints? No, because terran actually had a surrogate unit for T3, that being the ghost. Now that the ghost was nerfed into oblivion and terran has no T3 the ugly problem of bad design can no longer be hidden.
And hypocrisy is at the maximum when protoss/zerg players NOW say give more time that terran try new things. A couple months ago they were whining all over how terran is OP and they don't want to wait and learn but they want Blizard to act. And act they did, so fast that they didn't even tested it in PTR the patch.
Now it's all about reaping what was sown. Terran time to cry rivers and sure enough Blizzard will react. Patch notes for 1.50 anyone?
|
On March 25 2012 07:11 Kakaru2 wrote:
What you forget when you mentioned BW is to quote the date of last balance patch before that 2007 final? How many years?
Until Blizard overnerfed terran with the latest two patches did you hear those complaints? No, because terran actually had a surrogate unit for T3, that being the ghost. Now that the ghost was nerfed into oblivion and terran has no T3 the ugly problem of bad design can no longer be hidden.
And hypocrisy is at the maximum when protoss/zerg players NOW say give more time that terran try new things. A couple months ago they were whining all over how terran is OP and they don't want to wait and learn but they want Blizard to act. And act they did, so fast that they didn't even tested it in PTR the patch.
Now it's all about reaping what was sown. Terran time to cry rivers and sure enough Blizzard will react. Patch notes for 1.50 anyone?
Yea, that's what pissed me off the most. The fact that Blizz just decided to fuck PTR on half the changes they made, while at the same time 99% of the player base was scratching their heads in bewilderment.
|
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult.
|
On March 25 2012 07:55 YyapSsap wrote:
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult.
You missed the part where Rain failed in literally every way possible before and after that point.
|
On March 25 2012 07:11 Kakaru2 wrote:
What you forget when you mentioned BW is to quote the date of last balance patch before that 2007 final? How many years?
Until Blizard overnerfed terran with the latest two patches did you hear those complaints? No, because terran actually had a surrogate unit for T3, that being the ghost. Now that the ghost was nerfed into oblivion and terran has no T3 the ugly problem of bad design can no longer be hidden.
And hypocrisy is at the maximum when protoss/zerg players NOW say give more time that terran try new things. A couple months ago they were whining all over how terran is OP and they don't want to wait and learn but they want Blizard to act. And act they did, so fast that they didn't even tested it in PTR the patch.
Now it's all about reaping what was sown. Terran time to cry rivers and sure enough Blizzard will react. Patch notes for 1.50 anyone?
I play all three races but Terran is my main. In my opinion (an opinion which is shared by many higher players), the game isn't perfectly balanced like BW, but it's good enough that the crying of imbalance is unnecessary. Just because the current metagame of just going MMMVG against late-game toss is difficult or unfun to play doesn't mean the game is imbalanced. Huge difference there. You can say that only Koreans want to put in the effort to learn how to multitask the way Terran is meant to be played, but that means the problem is in the player base, not the game itself.
On March 25 2012 07:06 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 06:59 LightSpectra wrote:
Apologies for harping on a discussion from a few pages back, but it's quite irritating to me when the players who advocate mech TvP are shot down as being stupid or unknowledgeable.
GoOdy-style pure mech has been discredited, but players like ThorZain have plenty of success against Protoss going mech/bio hybrid. Even if that weren't the case, that doesn't mean there will never be a shift in the metagame. Remember SaviOr in Brood War? The adage for him was that "it doesn't matter what you do, he'll just 3hatch and kill you." There wasn't a massive patch that changed it -- it's just Bisu invented a way of using a synergy of corsairs and DTs that were never used like that before, and then Bisu 3-0'd SaviOr at the 2007 MSL, who was previously considered invincible.
What I'm saying is, just because our current Terran icons like MVP and Jjakji don't go late-game mech TvP, doesn't mean it's an unusable style. Ok, well until a player comes along and revolutionizes mech in TvP, we will continue to consider it not worthwhile. Blizz themselves have acknowledged mech's inability to compete against Protoss. It's gonna take a lot more than an EU mid masters player to convince me that mech is viable. Yes, there is the player Lyyna who has begun to write a guide to mech in TvP but honestly, my first impression is that a lot of his success is attributed to the fact that Protoss TvP metagame right now is geared 100% for dealing with bio.
"Blizz themselves have acknowledged mech's inability to compete against Protoss"? Sorry, I distinctly remember Naniwa and MC losing games to some stupid thor timing pushes coming from MMA and ThorZain. If Blizzard acknowledged that, they did so incorreclty.
"my first impression is that a lot of his success is attributed to the fact that Protoss TvP metagame right now is geared 100% for dealing with bio." What does that tell you? There's a whole frontier for innovation here.
|
On March 25 2012 08:00 Whynaut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 07:55 YyapSsap wrote:
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult. You missed the part where Rain failed in literally every way possible before and after that point.
Your missing my point. The P has a luxury of just warping in units and A moving them. While for a T, getting rid of those zealot /DT w/e harassments take alot of apm to get rid of unless your main army is nearby.
Look how perfect he has to play. Rain thought we sniped all HTs, yet one HT= one storm that just crushed that T army. Oh now parting just A moves lol and wins.
|
On March 25 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 08:00 Whynaut wrote:On March 25 2012 07:55 YyapSsap wrote:
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult. You missed the part where Rain failed in literally every way possible before and after that point. Your missing my point. The P has a luxury of just warping in units and A moving them. While for a T, getting rid of those zealot /DT w/e harassments take alot of apm to get rid of unless your main army is nearby. Look how perfect he has to play. Rain thought we sniped all HTs, yet one HT= one storm that just crushed that T army. Oh now parting just A moves lol and wins.
You're not speaking impartially. The warp in mechanic is extremely beneficial for Protoss, but getting a warp prism complicated the tech path a lot more than getting medivacs. It means Terran has more offensive-harassment advantages whereas Protoss has more advantages when defending harass, assuming basically equal players.
Angry Terran players harp on how much harder their micro is than Protoss micro, but kiting with a stimmed bio ball is about as hard as making sure HTs and colossae don't wander off and die randomly due to the pathfinding. Keep in mind that EMP is better than storm, because EMP happens instantaneously and comes from a fast cloaked unit, whereas storm damage happens over time and comes from a slow, easy-target unit. Also factor in medivacs.
I think Terran overall is a harder race to play but the ridiculous exaggerations I'm reading in this thread are uncalled for and don't do anything for your case.
|
On March 25 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 08:00 Whynaut wrote:On March 25 2012 07:55 YyapSsap wrote:
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult. You missed the part where Rain failed in literally every way possible before and after that point. Your missing my point. The P has a luxury of just warping in units and A moving them. While for a T, getting rid of those zealot /DT w/e harassments take alot of apm to get rid of unless your main army is nearby. Look how perfect he has to play. Rain thought we sniped all HTs, yet one HT= one storm that just crushed that T army. Oh now parting just A moves lol and wins.
if multi prologed harass is apm intensive, then by pure logic, defending them is equally hard................
|
|
|
On March 25 2012 08:07 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 07:11 Kakaru2 wrote:
What you forget when you mentioned BW is to quote the date of last balance patch before that 2007 final? How many years?
Until Blizard overnerfed terran with the latest two patches did you hear those complaints? No, because terran actually had a surrogate unit for T3, that being the ghost. Now that the ghost was nerfed into oblivion and terran has no T3 the ugly problem of bad design can no longer be hidden.
And hypocrisy is at the maximum when protoss/zerg players NOW say give more time that terran try new things. A couple months ago they were whining all over how terran is OP and they don't want to wait and learn but they want Blizard to act. And act they did, so fast that they didn't even tested it in PTR the patch.
Now it's all about reaping what was sown. Terran time to cry rivers and sure enough Blizzard will react. Patch notes for 1.50 anyone? I play all three races but Terran is my main. In my opinion (an opinion which is shared by many higher players), the game isn't perfectly balanced like BW, but it's good enough that the crying of imbalance is unnecessary. Just because the current metagame of just going MMMVG against late-game toss is difficult or unfun to play doesn't mean the game is imbalanced. Huge difference there. You can say that only Koreans want to put in the effort to learn how to multitask the way Terran is meant to be played, but that means the problem is in the player base, not the game itself. Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 07:06 SupLilSon wrote:On March 25 2012 06:59 LightSpectra wrote:
Apologies for harping on a discussion from a few pages back, but it's quite irritating to me when the players who advocate mech TvP are shot down as being stupid or unknowledgeable.
GoOdy-style pure mech has been discredited, but players like ThorZain have plenty of success against Protoss going mech/bio hybrid. Even if that weren't the case, that doesn't mean there will never be a shift in the metagame. Remember SaviOr in Brood War? The adage for him was that "it doesn't matter what you do, he'll just 3hatch and kill you." There wasn't a massive patch that changed it -- it's just Bisu invented a way of using a synergy of corsairs and DTs that were never used like that before, and then Bisu 3-0'd SaviOr at the 2007 MSL, who was previously considered invincible.
What I'm saying is, just because our current Terran icons like MVP and Jjakji don't go late-game mech TvP, doesn't mean it's an unusable style. Ok, well until a player comes along and revolutionizes mech in TvP, we will continue to consider it not worthwhile. Blizz themselves have acknowledged mech's inability to compete against Protoss. It's gonna take a lot more than an EU mid masters player to convince me that mech is viable. Yes, there is the player Lyyna who has begun to write a guide to mech in TvP but honestly, my first impression is that a lot of his success is attributed to the fact that Protoss TvP metagame right now is geared 100% for dealing with bio. "Blizz themselves have acknowledged mech's inability to compete against Protoss"? Sorry, I distinctly remember Naniwa and MC losing games to some stupid thor timing pushes coming from MMA and ThorZain. If Blizzard acknowledged that, they did so incorreclty. "my first impression is that a lot of his success is attributed to the fact that Protoss TvP metagame right now is geared 100% for dealing with bio." What does that tell you? There's a whole frontier for innovation here.
Yes, Thors were nerfed accordingly. I don't recall hearing any Terran's hardcore whine about it. It seemed pretty silly, and wasn't even a commonplace strategy. I'm failing to see your point. Blizz knows that mech is bad vs. Toss, hence the introduction of the "Battle Hellion" in HOTS.
Your second comment makes me think you either misunderstood me or don't understand what meta game is. My new go to strategy in TvP is 1-1-1 cloaked banshee into Thor/Marine/Banshee/Raven all in off 3-base. It works pretty damn well for me in masters. Do I think I'm innovating anything? No. Banshee play fell out of favor with Terrans some time ago in favor of 1 rax expo, 2 rax, and more medivac based play. This means that a lot of Toss are using builds not necessarily tailored to defend my build well because it's really uncommon. Similarly, Lynna isn't really innovating much.
|
On March 25 2012 08:19 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 08:11 YyapSsap wrote:On March 25 2012 08:00 Whynaut wrote:On March 25 2012 07:55 YyapSsap wrote:
Just from MLG, the game against rain vs parting. Parting just 1As the zealots to backdoor the T base to cut reinforcement and forgets about it (it chases a rallied tank). Yet a T has to micro his marines to fend of 5 lots (this is apm consuming) on in a while setting up tanks and containment at the Ps natural.. Some people think 1-1-1 are an ez win, but the execution it requires to get you the win is pretty difficult. You missed the part where Rain failed in literally every way possible before and after that point. Your missing my point. The P has a luxury of just warping in units and A moving them. While for a T, getting rid of those zealot /DT w/e harassments take alot of apm to get rid of unless your main army is nearby. Look how perfect he has to play. Rain thought we sniped all HTs, yet one HT= one storm that just crushed that T army. Oh now parting just A moves lol and wins. You're not speaking impartially. The warp in mechanic is extremely beneficial for Protoss, but getting a warp prism complicated the tech path a lot more than getting medivacs. It means Terran has more offensive-harassment advantages whereas Protoss has more advantages when defending harass, assuming basically equal players. Angry Terran players harp on how much harder their micro is than Protoss micro, but kiting with a stimmed bio ball is about as hard as making sure HTs and colossae don't wander off and die randomly due to the pathfinding. Keep in mind that EMP is better than storm, because EMP happens instantaneously and comes from a fast cloaked unit, whereas storm damage happens over time and comes from a slow, easy-target unit. Also factor in medivacs. I think Terran overall is a harder race to play but the ridiculous exaggerations I'm reading in this thread are uncalled for and don't do anything for your case.
What league are you in? In what world do HTs ever wander off and die randomly due to pathfinding? This is total news to me. HTs for once are slower than the rest of the army which makes it practically impossible to lose them to anything simply because they are at the back of your army BY DEFAULT. And collossi aren't faster than the rest of your army and THEY CAN WALK ON TOP OF OTHER UNITS so pathfinding doesn't affect them AT ALL, NADA, this argument can be made for Ultras, but Collossi? No, just no. Bullshit nothing else.
And how exactly are HTs "easy targets"? I find it 10x harder to emp HTs than to storm a bio ball. With storm you can literally hit anything and it's good for you as long as it's a terran unit, with EMP you have to A: get close enough to the HTs to hit them (remember they are behind everything else, which is extremely dumb when you consider the fact that protoss has chargelots which make it impossible to close the gap) and B: Hit HTs specifically, you can't just derp a few EMPs and just EMP all protoss units, you have to target Hts specifically.
And in what world is "controlling" your HTs as hard as stutter stepping, kiting and spliting for 30+ seconds? What control is it that HTs require? They are behind your army by default so they don't need extra protection and like I said collossi don't have any pathfinding issues at all because they can LITERALLY WALK ON TOP OF OTHER SHIT.
edit: And just for the record, a 2 base thor all-in is not mech play. That definition would be completely silly. If building a single mech unit in your army is considered mech play then a terran opening 6 hellions in TvZ is automatically a mech player, same goes for a terran who goes marine tank or a terran who builds a single thor vs. mutas. LOL
|
On March 25 2012 06:33 mazqo wrote:
All your QQ'ing about protoss being easier and overpowered and amoves over terran is just your unknowledge about how your race works and how protoss works. You make wrong unit composition, you dont know few things how you should fight, you dont abuse orbitals etc so you always make the same mistakes even when you dont know that you are making them. When you realize these things, matchup will become much more easier and you dont need to have 200 eAPM in fights and kite the hell out of your units and one misclick wont lose you the game.
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.).
How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's.
So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons.
What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight.
1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc..
2. Press stim
3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash.
4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings.
Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts.
You should never lose a fight when:
- Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's)
- You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily.
Good post, really helpful
|
On March 25 2012 08:31 naama- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 06:33 mazqo wrote:
All your QQ'ing about protoss being easier and overpowered and amoves over terran is just your unknowledge about how your race works and how protoss works. You make wrong unit composition, you dont know few things how you should fight, you dont abuse orbitals etc so you always make the same mistakes even when you dont know that you are making them. When you realize these things, matchup will become much more easier and you dont need to have 200 eAPM in fights and kite the hell out of your units and one misclick wont lose you the game.
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.).
How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's.
So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons.
What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight.
1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc..
2. Press stim
3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash.
4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings.
Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts.
You should never lose a fight when:
- Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's)
- You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily. Good post, really helpful
Helpful? I just couldn't resist one last post.
Our knowledge on how the matchup works? I think you're serious ^^ So let's try this.
mazqo :
For example, lets take 20 warp gates. You won a fight, but you have 20 units left and no medivacs nor vikigns remaining. Should you push? No because he will warp 20 units and kill your units. What you should do is remax 200/200 again, maybe try to deny his bases because if he warped 20 units to his natural, he cant warp 20 units to his base that he is trying to build. So when is good time to try to finish the game? When you win a fight with many units left. You have medics healing all your units to full hp. You have vikings left to kill colos. You have marines and marauders to kite zealots etc. (in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots, because they will die fast to 3-3 marines and ghosts, but in smaller fights you do.).
Me: You are assuming we won the fight! Nice! But let's go with that. You're saying that we have to keep hitting 200/200 and push out? That's the best way? When it's being stated that with those types of armies terrans lose? I mean I could hit many things here but the biggest point i want to make is this... "in 200/200 you dont need ot kite zealots" Because you obviously understand the matchup. LET'S NOT KITE THE ZEALOTS. my god man you've made a correction all the top pro's have been doing wrong. I salute you. / end sarcasm.
k
You:
How will you win a fight with like that? Play defensive when toss has his 3bases saturated and +8 gateways and few colos, unless you get advantige before that. Max with 10 ghosts, 14 vikings, 1:4 marauder:marines. Leave marauders in front and marines back. Its huge that few marauders tanks colo hits rather than 5 marines that gets instakilled. Then just press stim when your opponent suicides his units to your defensive posture, scan his army and emp/snipe HT's.
Me: Ghosts are expensive... not only that but are only usefull for the emp in the fight. That's a lot off units I'm losing to have 10 ghosts... You're also assuming that the protoss just moves into our defensive army, no good protoss will do that unless they can secure the kill... that's retarded advice. Did you know that in order to get to his Ht's I have to have my ghosts come near charge lots, collasai? What makes you think I can reach his templar? That's why there is constant positioning because protoss wants to get the surround and terran wants to get the tech units. We're not always standing still, we can't just move every marauder to the front every single re move. And if we stand still collasai get more shots, zealots get more shots. even if he doesn't storm we die because we're standing around instead of MICRO'ING. What about ghosts being sniped? feed backed? Anyway lol..
You:
So. What if toss doesnt attack? When you are near maxed. Start building macro orbitals since you will start floating minerals when you are making vikings and ghosts and 3-3 upgrades. Kill ~25scv's so you have around 40-45 scv's vs protoss's 75. Which means you have 30 supply bigger army. Now start moving out and take 4th and 5th etc and fight if toss doesnt camp with cannons at some location. If he does, you can try to move around him and get him in bad position, but dont attack to protoss army when he is spreaded out and sitting over cannons.
What should you do in fight? You can move around with vikings on move command to follow your army. so you can move with 2 control groups, ghosts and bio+medic. You only have to do 4 things to win a fight.
1. Scan his army to see where his ghosts are at etc..
2. Press stim
3. CTRL click your marines and move them behind marauders and press stop, now they are safe from splash.
4. Spam EMP with priority: 1. HT's 2. Rest - its also good to try to emp colos so they die to less hits from vikings.
The only thing that I find correct or even close to being helpfull is this, so congrats I'll give you that.
You:
Only time you would want to kite is when there are ht's and your ghosts are stuck behind your army and you cant emp them because your army is blocking your own ghosts.
Me: Because that's the only reason why my ghosts can't reach his army.
You:
You should never lose a fight when:
- Opponent doesnt get any storms. (because of emp or he has no HT's)
- You get cloaked ghosts next to your opponents army because he has no observer (Observer snipe is bonus, and if you think you are good enough to snipe his observer, then do this) - If you scan him and see he has no observer. You should win the game easily.[/QUOTE]
Me:
It is possible to lose to an opponent who hasn't gotten storm yet, however this thread is about STORM / COLLASAI
You're counting on the protoss making a mistake that lets our ghosts right next to their templar?
I'm sorry. the only thing usefull on this post was the one section with minor micro tips that could be helpfull for lower leagues. everything else was pure shit. literally shit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
