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On March 24 2012 08:05 aXel92 wrote:
OMG... this is so stupid. T_T
i think people saying "watch mkp and learn" didn't understand which all the terrans are complaining about. there wasn't a lategame scenario in one of the both matches...
in game one, mkp destroyed the third of mc and killed a lot of units in the following engagement. so he was way ahead for the rest of the game. he expanded faster and got more and more ahead.
in game two mkp went for double upgrades whereas mc skipped upgrades and threw down a pretty fast third base. after this he fighted with 1-0 upgrades against 2-2 bio. this shouldn't work at all. mc picked up anyway. mc storms made the game almost close again...
overall you could see that storms almost turned around a lost game for mc...
He also didnt micro against the storms and ate ALL of the storms which did way more damage then they SHOULD have.
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On March 24 2012 13:54 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 13:44 oxxo wrote:On March 24 2012 12:45 Resistentialism wrote:
It's kind of funny, too, because people have been theorizing that maybe there are a lot of terrans that were getting wins maybe without having the ability to match. After the race gets brought in line and maybe they drop down a league - maybe where they really belong - they decide they don't like playing so much. This is a little something like what you're describing now. Or more like as many have said, including Masters RANDOM players like myself, TvP/Z is not enjoyable because of the 'playing against the clock' problem. T late game comp is extremely weak and they have by far the worst late game macro mechanic. I think the thing I find more enjoyable about TvZ vs TvP, even though they're both a race against the clock type game, is that when Zerg loses his army (you can see easily in Stephano vs Polt), you can go and abuse it as Terran - at least to some extent. If you win a battle against Protoss, you can't cause of warp ins unless you come out so incredibly ahead. And if you lose your entire army to the Protoss, you're just gonna lose, especially if closer to your base. And this is all late game stuff.
Usually late game zerg have plenty of spines at their hatch rallies just for those types of situations, stephano didn't place them during the game.
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This is how most TvP's go now, right? 1 rax expo into 3 rax, attack when you get double medivacs and then try to put on nonstop pressure until you win, or the protoss defends and gets 3 bases and you lose. That's what it always feels like to me. MarineKing does the same exact thing as other Terrans, but his micro is just so much better that he can use his bio/medivacs way more effectively than almost every other Terran.
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On March 24 2012 13:56 Picklebread wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 08:05 aXel92 wrote:
OMG... this is so stupid. T_T
i think people saying "watch mkp and learn" didn't understand which all the terrans are complaining about. there wasn't a lategame scenario in one of the both matches...
in game one, mkp destroyed the third of mc and killed a lot of units in the following engagement. so he was way ahead for the rest of the game. he expanded faster and got more and more ahead.
in game two mkp went for double upgrades whereas mc skipped upgrades and threw down a pretty fast third base. after this he fighted with 1-0 upgrades against 2-2 bio. this shouldn't work at all. mc picked up anyway. mc storms made the game almost close again...
overall you could see that storms almost turned around a lost game for mc... He also didnt micro against the storms and ate ALL of the storms which did way more damage then they SHOULD have.
You have to be fucking kidding me. He micro'd against over 3/4 of the storms. I don't know what games you were watching. The problem with storm is also that dodging it is pretty much pointless anyways. The damage is done REALLY fast and your reaction has to be before the storm goes down, and even then, it's a guessing game where he's gonna drop them.
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On March 24 2012 14:41 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 13:56 Picklebread wrote:On March 24 2012 08:05 aXel92 wrote:
OMG... this is so stupid. T_T
i think people saying "watch mkp and learn" didn't understand which all the terrans are complaining about. there wasn't a lategame scenario in one of the both matches...
in game one, mkp destroyed the third of mc and killed a lot of units in the following engagement. so he was way ahead for the rest of the game. he expanded faster and got more and more ahead.
in game two mkp went for double upgrades whereas mc skipped upgrades and threw down a pretty fast third base. after this he fighted with 1-0 upgrades against 2-2 bio. this shouldn't work at all. mc picked up anyway. mc storms made the game almost close again...
overall you could see that storms almost turned around a lost game for mc... He also didnt micro against the storms and ate ALL of the storms which did way more damage then they SHOULD have. You have to be fucking kidding me. He micro'd against over 3/4 of the storms. I don't know what games you were watching. The problem with storm is also that dodging it is pretty much pointless anyways. The damage is done REALLY fast and your reaction has to be before the storm goes down, and even then, it's a guessing game where he's gonna drop them.
Nah dodging storms is good, but people wayyyyyyy overrate moving out of storms. Sure its the right thing to do, but the MAJORITY OF THE DAMAGE is dealt instantly, so moving isn't gonna help you when all your marines are already dead.
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On March 24 2012 12:46 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 12:37 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 24 2012 08:58 zezamer wrote:
The general MKP TvP game plan is something like this:
-2 base attack before aoe, deny 3rd while taking own 3rd
-attacks around upgrade timings
-never let protoss get above 150 supply
Seems to work. Unfortunately this also relies on the fact that his EAPM is something like 200+, so he can keep constant effective aggression with a small amount of units. Also, dat macro is godly. Very few have the ability to use his strategy, unfortunately. This is the exact problem that Terrans are complaining about. Most Master-level players (I'm guessing) have an actual APM of around 100 with an EAPM somewhat lower. I'm around 130 APM myself, but a lot of that's from playing BW for like 4 years. I'm averaging 214 APM with 158 EAPM. (Just opened last replay in sc2gears, but they're all similar). Even with this I'm having a VERY hard time with late game Protoss. I agree, if Terran can do good damage early/mid game, it makes late game playable. The problem is Terran can only do damage two ways; identifying small and crucial timing windows, or depend on the Protoss to make a mistake such as a drop doing more damage than it should, or them pulling their army out of position, etc.
So, I'm guessing you're probably at least mid-masters.
Personally, watching MKP play just makes TvP look easy, lol. I think the only game I saw today that he was actually in any trouble was when Socke hit a good 2-base timing and forced a lift off of MKP's natural. Course, he still won though I feel it was kind of Socke's fault- I was yelling at him to expand forever.
I don't think MKP used anything really gimmicky like timing windows. He just got up to two bases while keeping on good aggression while forcing Protoss to use a lot of gas, and then eventually just overran with his ridiculous macro. I think his willingness to push out without medivacs at first is a pretty big decision-- it makes the army have less survivability, but the increased amount of troops seems to give him the needed advantage over a gateway army which he would otherwise be about even with. Oh, and upgrades. He's really, really good about those.
None of the games went to the lategame, and MKP didn't even really drop either.
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On March 24 2012 14:47 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 12:46 Orracle wrote:On March 24 2012 12:37 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 24 2012 08:58 zezamer wrote:
The general MKP TvP game plan is something like this:
-2 base attack before aoe, deny 3rd while taking own 3rd
-attacks around upgrade timings
-never let protoss get above 150 supply
Seems to work. Unfortunately this also relies on the fact that his EAPM is something like 200+, so he can keep constant effective aggression with a small amount of units. Also, dat macro is godly. Very few have the ability to use his strategy, unfortunately. This is the exact problem that Terrans are complaining about. Most Master-level players (I'm guessing) have an actual APM of around 100 with an EAPM somewhat lower. I'm around 130 APM myself, but a lot of that's from playing BW for like 4 years. I'm averaging 214 APM with 158 EAPM. (Just opened last replay in sc2gears, but they're all similar). Even with this I'm having a VERY hard time with late game Protoss. I agree, if Terran can do good damage early/mid game, it makes late game playable. The problem is Terran can only do damage two ways; identifying small and crucial timing windows, or depend on the Protoss to make a mistake such as a drop doing more damage than it should, or them pulling their army out of position, etc. So, I'm guessing you're probably at least mid-masters. Personally, watching MKP play just makes TvP look easy, lol. I think the only game I saw today that he was actually in any trouble was when Socke hit a good 2-base timing and forced a lift off of MKP's natural. Course, he still won though I feel it was kind of Socke's fault- I was yelling at him to expand forever. I don't think MKP used anything really gimmicky like timing windows. He just got up to two bases while keeping on good aggression while forcing Protoss to use a lot of gas, and then eventually just overran with his ridiculous macro. I think his willingness to push out without medivacs at first is a pretty big decision-- it makes the army have less survivability, but the increased amount of troops seems to give him the needed advantage over a gateway army which he would otherwise be about even with. Oh, and upgrades. He's really, really good about those. None of the games went to the lategame, and MKP didn't even really drop either.
He didn't do anything different then most terrans no, his micro is godly however. Something that even a lot of korean pro's can't do. MKP vs other terran pro's is like comparing Flash to fantasy right now with his TvP matchup. He just stands out due to everything being superior then most terrans and most of his opponents.
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1 terran wins with amazing bio play - bio gets nerfed next patch - rest of terrans quit sc2 - GG blizzard
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On March 24 2012 14:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
So, I'm guessing you're probably at least mid-masters.
Personally, watching MKP play just makes TvP look easy, lol. I think the only game I saw today that he was actually in any trouble was when Socke hit a good 2-base timing and forced a lift off of MKP's natural. Course, he still won though I feel it was kind of Socke's fault- I was yelling at him to expand forever.
I don't think MKP used anything really gimmicky like timing windows. He just got up to two bases while keeping on good aggression while forcing Protoss to use a lot of gas, and then eventually just overran with his ridiculous macro. I think his willingness to push out without medivacs at first is a pretty big decision-- it makes the army have less survivability, but the increased amount of troops seems to give him the needed advantage over a gateway army which he would otherwise be about even with. Oh, and upgrades. He's really, really good about those.
None of the games went to the lategame, and MKP didn't even really drop either.
Well, for example he did the 2-2-2 the first game vs MC. There was a timing window that he hit where MC took a load of damage. It was essentially a BO win, as MC took a quick 3rd, multiple tech paths, and had no AOE in time. Can't remember the second game, and missed him vs SaSe. Sounds like SaSe hit a timing on MKP which should have won him the game, but really had no idea how to follow up.
A huge problem is how these EU/NA players play. Prime example I think was MLG Winter Arena(MMA, Bling, Kas, etc)? Each game these EU/NA Terrans would pull a super quick 3rd base, trying to play into the late game essentially on equal footing. I think it comes down to Terran players wanting to play the late game on equal footing which just can't be done. While MKP didn't do any big drops from what I remember, the fact was as soon as he had stim and medivacs he pushed out, and literally didn't stop. His control was insane at certain parts, until I felt he had a huge lead which then he quit trying to dodge storms, etc.
I think a big problem with this style of play is very few have have the control, macro, etc that MKP does. I feel Protoss isn't near as APM intensive as Terran in the late game, which makes it so much easier for Terran to make that simple mistake that cost them the game.
On March 24 2012 14:56 BigBossX wrote:
1 terran wins with amazing bio play - bio gets nerfed next patch - rest of terrans quit sc2 - GG blizzard
Well that's pretty extreme thinking. I doubt that will happen, but if it does, I will be quitting SC2.
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On March 24 2012 14:38 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 13:54 Chaggi wrote:On March 24 2012 13:44 oxxo wrote:On March 24 2012 12:45 Resistentialism wrote:
It's kind of funny, too, because people have been theorizing that maybe there are a lot of terrans that were getting wins maybe without having the ability to match. After the race gets brought in line and maybe they drop down a league - maybe where they really belong - they decide they don't like playing so much. This is a little something like what you're describing now. Or more like as many have said, including Masters RANDOM players like myself, TvP/Z is not enjoyable because of the 'playing against the clock' problem. T late game comp is extremely weak and they have by far the worst late game macro mechanic. I think the thing I find more enjoyable about TvZ vs TvP, even though they're both a race against the clock type game, is that when Zerg loses his army (you can see easily in Stephano vs Polt), you can go and abuse it as Terran - at least to some extent. If you win a battle against Protoss, you can't cause of warp ins unless you come out so incredibly ahead. And if you lose your entire army to the Protoss, you're just gonna lose, especially if closer to your base. And this is all late game stuff. Usually late game zerg have plenty of spines at their hatch rallies just for those types of situations, stephano didn't place them during the game.
I don't see it much at my level (mid Diamond) but guess I'll probably see that more soon!
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it's funny to see platinum protoss beating diamond terrans with ease just by spamming units.
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So this thread is going to be talk about TvPs in MLG for the next few days, yeah? I think everyone would do well to analyze the plays of all these pros in this high game-density tournament.
Looking forward to all the TvPs. Thorzain vs nony should be interesting on how to handle zealot archon (which I figure he'll go for at least once) and Thorzain's vanilla builds are awesome and easy to follow imo... and though micro-wise it's not like MKP, that's exactly why everyone should watch non-top-insane-terrans play TvP too, because there's just no way I'm gonna micro like mkp ;_; his 2-2 was so insanely fast._. how'd he get away with that (spoiler: mc greed) but thus only applies really to early 3rd base by MC, with the intent showing both games. Can't believe I missed mkp v sase, ganzi vs MC. o.o
Tomorrow! [Though doubt we'll actually see all/any these on stream]
KR vs WBC (did he cannon rush his way through open bracket again??? lol)
Minigun vs ruff (not predicting a T win here however)
Axslav vs Select. (Select has a sick TvP and even better after Korea, I don't think axslav will deviate from lategame colossi since select is so good with ghosts)
Inori vs Heart (I have absolutely no idea, both from TSL aren't they? Calling for Heart, however, so sick)
Thorzain vs Nony
+ Show Spoiler +
Played like 20 TvPs over the past few, tried/trying mech. The late-game engagements, mech is awesome, never seen protoss just melt like that before. However I still lost to counter-engagements and early rushes wreck mech openers. :< is there anything you can even do vs obs blink pressure (not even allin) with just marines (reactor exp, banshee exp will just die)?
After playing mech I tried bio and won 3for3, which is pretty rare, I feel like playing mech was like running with weights on, just thought "gotta be like MKP... cry" It just took me >200APM, >140EAPM and an emphasis on map presence, even before stim finished. Need more games. I feel unmotivated to go back to mech. It's pointless, I mean you let protoss roam freely around the map and do whatever he wants, then assume your unkillable deathball will win the game, but it doesn't tend to work out like that doesn't it 
Or maybe I'm tired delirious and optimistic.
+ Show Spoiler +
2012:
62% TvZ
58% TvT
33% TvP
Season 5 onward:
61% TvZ
55% TvT
34% TvP
Season 6 onward: Not enough games for solid anything, but
44% TvZ
50% TvT
0% TvP
Some circumstantial evidence that I was never just awful at TvP
Season 4:
54% TvZ
50% TvT
55% TvP ^^
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France13023 Posts
About the MKP vs MC series, I think MKP was able to get away with his super fast upgrades (aka not being heavy gateway allined or something) because him and MC practice often together, and MKP probably won the mindgames here.
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On March 24 2012 20:09 Poopi wrote:
About the MKP vs MC series, I think MKP was able to get away with his super fast upgrades (aka not being heavy gateway allined or something) because him and MC practice often together, and MKP probably won the mindgames here.
Ganzi and MC also have deep mindgames, which I believe is a contributing factor to Ganzi's win. Absolutely nothing against him, I just don't know about his TvP :X (lost to Sase)
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France13023 Posts
On March 24 2012 20:16 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 20:09 Poopi wrote:
About the MKP vs MC series, I think MKP was able to get away with his super fast upgrades (aka not being heavy gateway allined or something) because him and MC practice often together, and MKP probably won the mindgames here.
Ganzi and MC also have deep mindgames, which I believe is a contributing factor to Ganzi's win. Absolutely nothing against him, I just don't know about his TvP :X (lost to Sase)
SaSe is a very very strong and scary player.
The problem with the players in korea is that we don't really know how much they progressed / how strong they really are sincee we don't see them often. So I don't think that GanZi losing to SaSe can give us a clue about his TvP.
edit : typo.
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On March 24 2012 20:19 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 20:16 Ktk wrote:On March 24 2012 20:09 Poopi wrote:
About the MKP vs MC series, I think MKP was able to get away with his super fast upgrades (aka not being heavy gateway allined or something) because him and MC practice often together, and MKP probably won the mindgames here.
Ganzi and MC also have deep mindgames, which I believe is a contributing factor to Ganzi's win. Absolutely nothing against him, I just don't know about his TvP :X (lost to Sase) SaSe is a very very strong and scary player. The problem with the players in korea is that we don't really know how much they progressed / how strong they really are se we don't see them often. So I don't think that GanZi losing to SaSe can give us a clue about his TvP
Def true and I realize Sase's very strong (ST_Sase, right?), but he lost 0-2, then beat MC 2-1? I figure mindgames must've played a role there regardless of how good any of these players are.
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France13023 Posts
On March 24 2012 20:20 Ktk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 20:19 Poopi wrote:On March 24 2012 20:16 Ktk wrote:On March 24 2012 20:09 Poopi wrote:
About the MKP vs MC series, I think MKP was able to get away with his super fast upgrades (aka not being heavy gateway allined or something) because him and MC practice often together, and MKP probably won the mindgames here.
Ganzi and MC also have deep mindgames, which I believe is a contributing factor to Ganzi's win. Absolutely nothing against him, I just don't know about his TvP :X (lost to Sase) SaSe is a very very strong and scary player. The problem with the players in korea is that we don't really know how much they progressed / how strong they really are se we don't see them often. So I don't think that GanZi losing to SaSe can give us a clue about his TvP Def true and I realize Sase's very strong (ST_Sase, right?), but he lost 0-2, then beat MC 2-1? I figure mindgames must've played a role there regardless of how good any of these players are.
GanZi lost to SaSe 1-2 and then procedeed to win against MC 2-1.
I didn't see the games (SaSe vs GanZi was at the same time as MC vs MKP), only read french LR of the games, but since GanZi played often vs MC in the past (I can't remember where but I think GanZi won despite having one of the worst TvP amongst code S terrans when he was still code S) there sure were mindgames in play.
I think the Genius vs MKP series from the last GSL can give us more clues about the TvP, they played a lot of scenarii and their skill level was very close at that time. (no offense to MC or SaSe but they are currently not close to MKP skill-wise)
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On March 11 2012 11:24 Faust852 wrote:
TvP is too hard for a lot of Terran, so they stop playing because they don't want to lose and get demoted.
That makes no sense...
By your logic, there shouldn't be any protoss because they find PvZ too hard as well -.-"
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Fun has been sucked completely out of the game for terrans. Abuse early game windows that take immense game knowledge to know and learn or hope for a huge mistake in the opponents play to give you an opening. There's something fundementally wrong with the game when both P and Z just sit back and turtle every fucking game regardless of how economically the T plays. Fast expand? Get a quick third and wait until the clock says autowin. If 1.5 doesn't bring considerable changes then you can bet on a ton of terrans changing.
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So, MKP played against MC, and won. Conclusion for protoss players: matchup is balanced.
Completely disregarding the facts of course, which for example are that MC did a huge mistake (army completely out of position for the first attack on the 3rd), and that he hold three more attacks with more than 40 supply less (and one base less) than the terran. And the 40 supply were every freaking time. The last push was 50+ supply in favor of MKP, yet he survived barely with ~4-5 marauders and needed reinforcements.
Bare in mind, the first "army" of MC was gifted, as was the first kill on the third base thanks to MC being completely out of position. In my eyes, something is really wrong if you do such a huge mistake and still hang in the game for so long even through constant and insane aggression.
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EPT
