EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 128
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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Orracle
United States314 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote: MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. So you want to base your whole argument literally on two matches? Where MC's first match was lost from the start with a lack of AOE vs the 2-2-2? The second game due to another quick 3rd with 0-1 upgrades vs 2-2 upgrades? | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote: MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. | ||
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RandomAccount#106470
Lithuania1506 Posts
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:39 NoctemSC wrote: You're comparing one of the best Terrans in the world to your average player though. This thread is not focused on GSL caliber play. It's focused on the lack of Terrans at ALL levels. Not just GM. If GSL caliber Terrans can win, that's great. It does not reflect the entire population though. What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. | ||
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Yosho
585 Posts
this surprises you? | ||
Poopi
France13018 Posts
MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. Wow terran such a strong race, the player with the best micro in the world won a TvP  | ||
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TG Manny
United States325 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:19 Raambo11 wrote: I think your missing the part where it took like 10 minutes to win when he was ahead in bases, upgrades, tech, and like 50 supply ahead. It was actually game two  MKP gg'd as soon as game 1 started. In either case, MKP showed how you beat Protoss--split up his army, keep tech count under control (even if he trades ineffectively to chase down a collosus or w/e). Zergs lose when terrans have 3/3 marines that are extremely cheap and versatile and 10+ tanks make a huge buffer for them to take map control and trade effectively against any kind of non-broodlord corruptor army. Even then, they have so much ground DPS they can effectively remove all but the tightest to home bases of zerg from the field. When zergs pick off one or two tanks at a time by a retreating terran or sniping them off with mutalisks or breaking a position before it is fully fortified, they not only make a timing less effective but the long term effective of a smaller buffer for ling/bane overruns on forward positions. This is how you win before hivetech kicks in for zerg, and terran must adopt a similar approach to limiting the protoss army to be all HT/Archon/Collosus with some buffer zealots and anti viking/drop stalkers. If the P has 100 food of tech it is bounds stronger than 50 food of tech (ofc) but it makes the full terran army survive long enough to do damage. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:36 Orracle wrote: So you want to base your whole argument literally on two matches? Where MC's first match was lost from the start with a lack of AOE vs the 2-2-2? The second game due to another quick 3rd with 0-1 upgrades vs 2-2 upgrades? You're making excuses, I've seen plenty of games with foreign Terrans in great positions and they wouldn't have finished off MC in either game. There was no gambling or cheese from MKP, just solid play.. which according to this thread isn't possible against Protoss. Herp. | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:41 karpo wrote: What do you base this "lack of terran" on? The responses from terrans in this thread? Because the sc2ranks percentages aren't very different to what they were a year ago as i've shown several times in this thread. Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ | ||
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Zythius
Norway94 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:34 AnalThermometer wrote: MKP is really showing foreign Terrans can't complain, they just aren't on the level required to talk about balance yet. What amuses me is this talk of "foreign" players. First of all, TL might be based in one country, but its users are not from one country. So how does one define foreign? Secondly, why would we think terrans in one country are sooo much different from the ones in other countries? | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:48 Zythius wrote: What amuses me is this talk of "foreign" players. First of all, TL might be based in one country, but its users are not from one country. So how does one define foreign? Secondly, why would we think terrans in one country are sooo much different from the ones in other countries? When people say "foreign" they commonly refer to anyone outside of Korea. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:48 Zythius wrote: What amuses me is this talk of "foreign" players. First of all, TL might be based in one country, but its users are not from one country. So how does one define foreign? Secondly, why would we think terrans in one country are sooo much different from the ones in other countries? Foreign: Not Korean Kim chi terran > foreign terran that was insane micro from mkp, insane aggression. I guess we just need to play like mkp then. ~_~ | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:48 Zythius wrote: What amuses me is this talk of "foreign" players. First of all, TL might be based in one country, but its users are not from one country. So how does one define foreign? Secondly, why would we think terrans in one country are sooo much different from the ones in other countries? Like BW, foreigners are considered non koreans. Terrans in korea are different then terrans from other countries in terms of builds, refinement, multi tasking and macro are just so much superior to foreign ones and is why terran is so strong in korea, but if you look at EU/NA would not think terran is that strong. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote: Like BW, foreigners are considered non koreans. Terrans in korea are different then terrans from other countries in terms of builds, refinement, multi tasking and macro are just so much superior to foreign ones and is why terran is so strong in korea, but if you look at EU/NA would not think terran is that strong. Not only that, but the basic 'T has to play against the clock' complaint isn't disproved by Code S Terrans. They still win the vast majority of their games in early-mid game either outright or by doing heavy damage so they have a huge economic lead. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:46 NoctemSC wrote: Yes, they are very different. I can only speak for my self but I can garner from a lot of people on this thread that they feel TvP is overly hard for their skill levels. I'm not saying Protoss is Imba, I'm saying that Terrans under high Masters lack the control to fight against lategame Protoss effectively. This thread was never supposed to be about balance. It was supposed to be about why Terran is the lowest match race currently. The fact that it turned into a debate on TvP I have no control over =/ Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
On March 24 2012 07:58 karpo wrote: Terran stats average Platinum and up: 1.4.2 - 27.7% 1.3.0 - 30.1% 1.2.0 - 30.5% So between 1.3.0 and 1.4.3 terran lost a whooping 2.4% in the "trouble" leagues, that's in more than a years time. Doesn't sound like a huge difference to me, and that's also considering the fact that zerg had horrible percentages in 1.1.0-1.2.0 which then has climbed every patch, maybe because of map changes, increased viability for everyone who's not Nestea and not being rushed as easily. 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. | ||
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Zythius
Norway94 Posts
So what you are saying is that if one were to do a thorough study I would find that all Korean terrans are 90 % similar and that the "foreign" players have no particular style in common?EDIT: typo PS: and this would of course entail that the Koreans never used "foreign" styles. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 24 2012 08:01 NoctemSC wrote: 3% is huge, the problem with current statistics is they don't factor in players who have stopped playing all together or play 1-2 matches a month. Because of this it shows Terrans that aren't even playing anymore due to changes. If you have some other information to counter this I'd gladly hear it. It's not 3%, if you want to round it to something it should be 2%. You're the one who posted the sc2ranks stats in your OP. You're the one claiming there's a "dramatic" decline of terrans, you're the one that needs to present proof for your claims. Until there's actual numbers on ACTIVE matches there's really no point in trying to say that terrans that are counted on sc2ranks aren't playing. | ||
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