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France1954 Posts
On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard.
*while splitting and kiting...
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On March 24 2012 04:13 _Search_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:04 Recognizable wrote:On March 23 2012 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On March 23 2012 07:05 Poopi wrote:
Lol VTPerfect, terran's macro is the easiest and most forgiving? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?
Terran's supply mechanic is the hardest and most unforgiving, first of all, the production / barracks timings are hard to master (especially because you can't play passive). Oh and you have to balance your production / power up with income greatly affected by mules, thus lower when attacking (cuz of scans) and higher while harassing/defending.
Bio's macro is hard, mech's might not be but you can't mech in every MU anyways Terran's have the roughest supply mechanic? Are you joking? You have supply drop, a 50 energy spell that gives you 8 supply for free and is almost as cost effective as a MULE (given mining time lost, the fact that the 100 minerals are retroactive since you'd have to start building the supply depot a while ago, and other factors). I don't think building supply depots are inherently any harder than building pylons or overlords. You just look at your supply to see if you need to build them, then spend the money, and then you wait for it to build. Production for terran is no harder or easier than production for protoss (I might suggest that protoss has it a little harder since you don't have the option of queuing a little bit before the unit finishes so that you don't miss out on production time with warp gates, and you have to look away from the battle to warp units in so you can't micro as much). You get punished twice as hard with Terran by being supply blocked than with Protoss or Zerg. Just reflect about it for a moment from a Terran perspective what happens when you get supply blocked and what happens with Protoss and Zerg if they get supply blocked. Just something funny, protoss pylons build faster than supply depots and overlords. Supply Depots cost ~140 minerals because of lost mining time. They also take longer than overlords and pylons to build, but make up for that a bit by providing one extra supply. Also, you can't spam depots as easily as overlords and pylons. One other thing that everyone forgets: Terran requires the most space for buildings. Not only do they need add ons, they need viable exits from every production structure, making barracks actually require twice the space of a gateway. Now think about a map like XC and imagine fitting 20 depots in with 2 eng bays, armoury, reactored starport, 8-10 rax with add-ons, ghost academy and still maintaining a clear path from your mineral line to the ramp without putting buildings on the edge to be picked off by colossus.
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
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On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard.
You make it sound like he has the templars at the front of his army dancing infront of the zealots or like he doesn't have an observer to scout for cloaked ghosts. Have you been reading any of these TvP micro issue posts? Because you're still arguing something that's been discussed to death in this 100+ page thread.
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They really need to do something about lategame tvp. It gets to the point where the terran can never trade cost efficiently when the protoss has templar/archon/colossus and a bunch of gateway units. Unless you have pro level micro, you cannot kill enough of the toss army so their reinforcements can't kill you. add that to the fact that terran build time is reinforce time is longer, all of our units are super mineral heavy, and we have no real defenders advantage, it gets really really tough. It gets old having to micro 5x better, only to get steamrolled by amoved zealot/archon/colossus with one or two storms mixed in.
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On March 24 2012 04:15 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. I'm interested what you, as a random player, think of PvZ vs ZvP. I think the match up is balanced at the highest level but I feel like at lower levels defending against mass mutas with blink stalker/templar and trying to get a third base, takes a lot more skill to execute than microing the muta ball around (I used to play zerg myself). I feel like I have to try to all-in every game because I don't have the skill to play against mass muta which so many zergs go for now. I'm not whining about it because I know pro level is more important than my level but I'm just wondering how you see it.
I think PvZ and ZvP is a pretty balanced matchup. The protoss don't have a lot of options though so it can be predictable. To defend muta play just get cannons at each base and leave a templar or 2. Makes it really easy if you are quick on the minimap ^^
If he's being really annoying and you just can't get to him, try to get a third and go mass defend until you get a mothership. Then try to get a 4th ^^. vortex is really good late game.
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On March 24 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
while i agree with you over all, a supply block still affects protoss as much as a terran.
because as long as you don't warp in, you lose production time equally as a terran that can't build, when he is supply blocked. You argument would make sense, if all protoss warpgates were currently fresh in cool down, (which would mean they would have been all somewhat in a sync), this is almost never the case if you macro properly.
assuming both races macro properly, this effects them both equally if the production building is ready to build something new.
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France12903 Posts
On March 24 2012 05:02 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
while i agree with you over all, a supply block still affects protoss as much as a terran. because as long as you don't warp in, you lose production time equally as a terran that can't build. assuming both races constantly build something, this effects them both equally if the production building is ready to build something new.
No?
You can build multiple pylons with one probe, your pylons build faster, and if you already build before getting supply blocked, your gateways will "recharge" in the mean time.
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On March 24 2012 05:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:02 freetgy wrote:On March 24 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
while i agree with you over all, a supply block still affects protoss as much as a terran. because as long as you don't warp in, you lose production time equally as a terran that can't build. assuming both races constantly build something, this effects them both equally if the production building is ready to build something new. No? You can build multiple pylons with one probe, your pylons build faster, and if you already build before getting supply blocked, your gateways will "recharge" in the mean time.
i see that, just sayin that not all warp gates are on cool down always.
How often you see a protoss on streams, even pros getting supplyblocked, while trying to warp in stuff to defend?
very often, that is directly lost production time despite cooldown recharge or not.
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On March 24 2012 05:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:02 freetgy wrote:On March 24 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
while i agree with you over all, a supply block still affects protoss as much as a terran. because as long as you don't warp in, you lose production time equally as a terran that can't build. assuming both races constantly build something, this effects them both equally if the production building is ready to build something new. No? You can build multiple pylons with one probe, your pylons build faster, and if you already build before getting supply blocked, your gateways will "recharge" in the mean time.
Inconsequential. There are wayyyy bigger problems in the matchup right now. Pylons vs supply depots makes no difference either way.
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France12903 Posts
On March 24 2012 05:09 ander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:04 Poopi wrote:On March 24 2012 05:02 freetgy wrote:On March 24 2012 04:24 Recognizable wrote:
The big thing is, when a Terran get´s supply blocked the units have to start building. Whilst with protoss they can be warped in immediately after a supply block. This is most likely the main reason supply drop is in the game. They also take up space in the production building. What I mean by this is that with Zerg the larva will just continue to increase, so your production after the supply block will be just as strong. This is not the case with Terran. All in all, Terran get´s punished the hardest for supply blocks, but the supply drop mechanics makes it so it´s fair.
while i agree with you over all, a supply block still affects protoss as much as a terran. because as long as you don't warp in, you lose production time equally as a terran that can't build. assuming both races constantly build something, this effects them both equally if the production building is ready to build something new. No? You can build multiple pylons with one probe, your pylons build faster, and if you already build before getting supply blocked, your gateways will "recharge" in the mean time. Inconsequential. There are wayyyy bigger problems in the matchup right now. Pylons vs supply depots makes no difference either way.
I didn't say it causes problems, I just responded to some guy saying that terran's macro was the easiest and most forgiving, then other people responded.
I still don't understand why Blizzard nerfed ghost, it was really the only unit allowing terran to win in the lategame
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On March 24 2012 04:23 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard. *while splitting and kiting...
By that logic all P has to do is amove and spam storms? maybe click G before the fight starts. No.
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On March 24 2012 05:33 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 04:23 Kukaracha wrote:On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard. *while splitting and kiting... By that logic all P has to do is amove and spam storms? maybe click G before the fight starts. No.
Well... yes? I offrace as protoss and that is exactly what I do in every single engagement, I a-move my main army, cast storm with high templars and eventually pull back collossi if they are getting too far ahead (which hardly ever happens).
Or are we going back to the discussion where people claim that putting chargelots in front of your army is "micro", it really isn't and takes literally 2 second. You blink stalkers behind your chargelots. Done.
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On March 24 2012 05:40 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:33 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 24 2012 04:23 Kukaracha wrote:On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard. *while splitting and kiting... By that logic all P has to do is amove and spam storms? maybe click G before the fight starts. No. Well... yes? I offrace as protoss and that is exactly what I do in every single engagement, I a-move my main army, cast storm with high templars and eventually pull back collossi if they are getting too far ahead (which hardly ever happens). Or are we going back to the discussion where people claim that putting chargelots in front of your army is "micro", it really isn't and takes literally 2 second. You blink stalkers behind your chargelots. Done.
Protoss. Attack - Blink back - TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT - warp in, TTTTTTTTTT - warp in, ooh I still have a burger.
Terran - Attack - EMP, EMP, Split 3 ways, move back group 1 , emp, group 2, group 3, make sure vikings are attacking. DODGE THE STORMS. we lose. RUUUN ^^ that protoss was good, had excellent micro...
Protoss - I'm so fucking good.
Terran - I guess I just need to learn to micro better.
Protoss - terran is so easy to play.
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Great example of TvP matchup can be seen in the MLG columbus MC vs MKP game one. + Show Spoiler +Both of the players played really well overall. MKP just exploited various timings and was aggressive constantly. He even got stormed to oblivion once, but contrary to the popular belief in this thread, he didn't even lose because of that. I feel that shows the potential this match up has.
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He got a lead early on, a lot of the time that is not possible, and being aggressive without a lead to fall back on is incredibly detrimental in TvP.
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On March 24 2012 05:56 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2012 05:40 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 24 2012 05:33 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 24 2012 04:23 Kukaracha wrote:On March 24 2012 04:07 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:59 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:57 mazqo wrote:On March 24 2012 03:51 Yosho wrote:On March 24 2012 03:40 mazqo wrote:
Please someone make a poll "is zerg lategame too strong in ZvT". I bet every terran votes yes. Its fucking unbeatable, this matchup makes me wanna quit this game. zvt is fine Well i can say TvP is fine, oh wait guess its not. I have 76% winrate in TvP. So that makes terran imba!! The complain is that TvP wise Terran in the late game has to severally out micro the opponent to win. In the late ZvT game I feel (as a random high masters player on 4 accounts) that it takes equal work on both sides if the game is even, if not equal very close to it. PvT I just roll over my keyboard and laugh profoundly. Does terran really need to outmicro opponent? Not really. Just suicide 25 workers when you are near maxed and start making orbitals. Then you got ~45 workers while protoss has 75 so you have 30 supply more army. Then you put 12-14 vikings on move command to follow your bio army. And in fight you scan protoss army and emp HT's if there is, then spam emp. And while you do this you select(ctrl+click) all your marines and move them a little bit back so marauders takes all the damage and your marines are behind them safe from archon+colossus splash. And protoss army disapears. So what you really do is press stim + move marines back + spam emp, not that hard. *while splitting and kiting... By that logic all P has to do is amove and spam storms? maybe click G before the fight starts. No. Well... yes? I offrace as protoss and that is exactly what I do in every single engagement, I a-move my main army, cast storm with high templars and eventually pull back collossi if they are getting too far ahead (which hardly ever happens). Or are we going back to the discussion where people claim that putting chargelots in front of your army is "micro", it really isn't and takes literally 2 second. You blink stalkers behind your chargelots. Done. Protoss. Attack - Blink back - TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT - warp in, TTTTTTTTTT - warp in, ooh I still have a burger. Terran - Attack - EMP, EMP, Split 3 ways, move back group 1 , emp, group 2, group 3, make sure vikings are attacking. DODGE THE STORMS. we lose. RUUUN ^^ that protoss was good, had excellent micro... Protoss - I'm so fucking good. Terran - I guess I just need to learn to micro better. Protoss - terran is so easy to play.
Basically.
Terran is still over powered in everyone's minds for some reason.
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On March 24 2012 07:17 Darksteel wrote:Great example of TvP matchup can be seen in the MLG columbus MC vs MKP game one. + Show Spoiler +Both of the players played really well overall. MKP just exploited various timings and was aggressive constantly. He even got stormed to oblivion once, but contrary to the popular belief in this thread, he didn't even lose because of that. I feel that shows the potential this match up has.
the complaint is collasai templar.
mkp had a huge advantage early mid game and mc was late on his collasai. just collasai or storm is balanced throw in too many of each is the problem.
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On March 24 2012 07:17 Darksteel wrote:Great example of TvP matchup can be seen in the MLG columbus MC vs MKP game one. + Show Spoiler +Both of the players played really well overall. MKP just exploited various timings and was aggressive constantly. He even got stormed to oblivion once, but contrary to the popular belief in this thread, he didn't even lose because of that. I feel that shows the potential this match up has.
I think your missing the part where it took like 10 minutes to win when he was ahead in bases, upgrades, tech, and like 50 supply ahead.
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Terran builds a midgame advantage with the ability to mostly dictate all of the game flow, but doesn't get the kill. Protoss survives at all, and begins to erode that advantage in the late game.
What's our conclusion here.
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I'd say we see at least as many midgames as we see late games.
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EPT
