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On March 23 2012 10:53 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity). What exactly are you getting at? Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all. Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason. Well first of all, you were complaining that you have too many different types of units to make, and I demonstrated that that's simply not the case. You have to carefully adjust your unit composition between 5 main units, sure, but that's not even remotely close to the same thing. Second, while I agree with you that vikings aren't versatile (marauders are pretty damn good against a lot of things; they just can't shoot up), marines and ghosts are two great examples of things that *are* versatile. You really can't go wrong with having too many ghosts. Third, I was the one who agreed that mech was worthless in TvP, but was hoping that it eventually will become viable (although it'll probably take patching). Yea, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that mech should be used more because it's some super secret amazing strategy. After reading your later posts I kinda came to the conclusion that we were actually in agreement about mech. Sorry XD. And just to clarify, I'm not complaining about having too many units to make. Obviously, it would be great if I had so many great units to make that I couldn't choose, but that's not the case here, not at all. My complaint is more along the lines of why in the current meta game are Terrans forced to make Vikings in TvP and TvZ when they're sole purpose is to counter a single unit. The Viking is utterly useless outside of it's one role and over-committing/under-committing to vikings is a common theme in Terran losses nowadays. It's not an imbalance or OP whine, just a silly metagame issue IMO. As it is right now, Terran can possibly avoid making a fleet of vikings in TvZ to combat BL, by using more aggressive strategies and trying to abuse BL immobility. Not nearly the same situation in TvP where the collosus can zip around easily with the rest of the deathball and warpins do well to combat hyper aggressive harass lategame and leave Terran open for a frontal assault. There is no other way to go against collosus outside of making vikings or hitting a good timing before range finishes or before protoss gets more than 1 collo. To me it just seems silly that Terran's only viable option for certain unit comps is a completely one dimensional pos.
I agree with you about the viking. I remember when players were really testing whether the banshee could be used viably against Protoss who go colossi, but the viking was pretty much significantly better (you can make two at a time, the range is so much better, etc.). The only thing that the banshee had over the viking was that it had multiple functions (harrass unit in mineral lines, cloaking, could be used against ground, etc.) I don't know if some sort of Sky Terran build is useful anymore, but vikings are certainly the best counter to colossi, and then they're essentially functionless (in the same way that corruptors are- until that greater spire finishes). And that kind of sucks.
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On March 23 2012 11:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity). What exactly are you getting at? Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all. Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason. Well first of all, you were complaining that you have too many different types of units to make, and I demonstrated that that's simply not the case. You have to carefully adjust your unit composition between 5 main units, sure, but that's not even remotely close to the same thing. Second, while I agree with you that vikings aren't versatile (marauders are pretty damn good against a lot of things; they just can't shoot up), marines and ghosts are two great examples of things that *are* versatile. You really can't go wrong with having too many ghosts. Third, I was the one who agreed that mech was worthless in TvP, but was hoping that it eventually will become viable (although it'll probably take patching). Yea, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that mech should be used more because it's some super secret amazing strategy. After reading your later posts I kinda came to the conclusion that we were actually in agreement about mech. Sorry XD. And just to clarify, I'm not complaining about having too many units to make. Obviously, it would be great if I had so many great units to make that I couldn't choose, but that's not the case here, not at all. My complaint is more along the lines of why in the current meta game are Terrans forced to make Vikings in TvP and TvZ when they're sole purpose is to counter a single unit. The Viking is utterly useless outside of it's one role and over-committing/under-committing to vikings is a common theme in Terran losses nowadays. It's not an imbalance or OP whine, just a silly metagame issue IMO. As it is right now, Terran can possibly avoid making a fleet of vikings in TvZ to combat BL, by using more aggressive strategies and trying to abuse BL immobility. Not nearly the same situation in TvP where the collosus can zip around easily with the rest of the deathball and warpins do well to combat hyper aggressive harass lategame and leave Terran open for a frontal assault. There is no other way to go against collosus outside of making vikings or hitting a good timing before range finishes or before protoss gets more than 1 collo. To me it just seems silly that Terran's only viable option for certain unit comps is a completely one dimensional pos. I agree with you about the viking. I remember when players were really testing whether the banshee could be used viably against Protoss who go colossi, but the viking was pretty much significantly better (you can make two at a time, the range is so much better, etc.). The only thing that the banshee had over the viking was that it had multiple functions (harrass unit in mineral lines, cloaking, could be used against ground, etc.) I don't know if some sort of Sky Terran build is useful anymore, but vikings are certainly the best counter to colossi, and then they're essentially functionless (in the same way that corruptors are- until that greater spire finishes). And that kind of sucks.
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o I think SC2 is littered with these niche units and I wish they would move away from trying to force specific units into specific roles and rather allow players to discover the right roles for units based on their ability to use them. But that's just my noob opinion ;o
And yea, I've been experimenting with cloackshees a lot more now in TvP but I think my success can be attributed more to metagame than anything else. With Protoss expecting 1 rax expo all the time they are a lot more negligent about detection. Sky Terran may be viable, I remember seeing QXC play an epic hour long TvP with Sky Terran. It's at least a better option to explore than mech currently. The thing about Sky terran however is that, like the 30 ghost strat, it's pretty difficult to attain it.
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On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o
Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units.
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On March 23 2012 09:04 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 08:58 Fencer710 wrote:On March 23 2012 08:43 EienShinwa wrote:
Everyone acknowledges that Protoss is broken with its core mechanics. Back to Broodwar I go... Fixed IMO. Honestly Terran and Zerg are fine, but Protoss is a bit of a broken race. :\ Not fun to play against forcefields, and colossus are 1dimensional units without a role more than 'I own you with X unit unless you build Y unit, in which case they both die and we reset to before X and Y units were built'. Warpgate is also not a great mechanic. :\ It makes Terran Mech un-viable because if you use it with speed prisms and blinkstalkers against mech, you basically auto-win with good control. And what race do you play? Zerg is very broken in TvZ. Bane + ling/roach allins are super easy to do and extremly hard to defend without super safe builds. And if zerg has 3base eco and hive tech its impossible to win. You need +10 siegetanks and marauders against ultras, but they are completely useless against broods. And even if you have "counter" = +10siege tanks and marauders against ultras, its still very hard to win, you need good positioning and you cant remake 10 sieges while zerg remakes 10 ultras and amoves again. And vikings against corruptor+brood+infestor, you mismicro once and all your vikigns are dead and you cant win anymore.
ZvT is now broken in the late-game the same way PvT is since the Ghost nerf. MMMT works well against any Ground composition Zerg can throw at you, though now Broodlord/infestor into Ultralisk tech switch is a *** to deal with if you let the Zerg get to that point.
Avilo made a thread on Raven usage to help deal with it, though I think it's a bit of a lost cause. 
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On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:53 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity). What exactly are you getting at? Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all. Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason. Well first of all, you were complaining that you have too many different types of units to make, and I demonstrated that that's simply not the case. You have to carefully adjust your unit composition between 5 main units, sure, but that's not even remotely close to the same thing. Second, while I agree with you that vikings aren't versatile (marauders are pretty damn good against a lot of things; they just can't shoot up), marines and ghosts are two great examples of things that *are* versatile. You really can't go wrong with having too many ghosts. Third, I was the one who agreed that mech was worthless in TvP, but was hoping that it eventually will become viable (although it'll probably take patching). Yea, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that mech should be used more because it's some super secret amazing strategy. After reading your later posts I kinda came to the conclusion that we were actually in agreement about mech. Sorry XD. And just to clarify, I'm not complaining about having too many units to make. Obviously, it would be great if I had so many great units to make that I couldn't choose, but that's not the case here, not at all. My complaint is more along the lines of why in the current meta game are Terrans forced to make Vikings in TvP and TvZ when they're sole purpose is to counter a single unit. The Viking is utterly useless outside of it's one role and over-committing/under-committing to vikings is a common theme in Terran losses nowadays. It's not an imbalance or OP whine, just a silly metagame issue IMO. As it is right now, Terran can possibly avoid making a fleet of vikings in TvZ to combat BL, by using more aggressive strategies and trying to abuse BL immobility. Not nearly the same situation in TvP where the collosus can zip around easily with the rest of the deathball and warpins do well to combat hyper aggressive harass lategame and leave Terran open for a frontal assault. There is no other way to go against collosus outside of making vikings or hitting a good timing before range finishes or before protoss gets more than 1 collo. To me it just seems silly that Terran's only viable option for certain unit comps is a completely one dimensional pos. I agree with you about the viking. I remember when players were really testing whether the banshee could be used viably against Protoss who go colossi, but the viking was pretty much significantly better (you can make two at a time, the range is so much better, etc.). The only thing that the banshee had over the viking was that it had multiple functions (harrass unit in mineral lines, cloaking, could be used against ground, etc.) I don't know if some sort of Sky Terran build is useful anymore, but vikings are certainly the best counter to colossi, and then they're essentially functionless (in the same way that corruptors are- until that greater spire finishes). And that kind of sucks. Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o I think SC2 is littered with these niche units and I wish they would move away from trying to force specific units into specific roles and rather allow players to discover the right roles for units based on their ability to use them. But that's just my noob opinion ;o
I think the role of the phoenix after the Zerg stops going mutalisks is to get chain-fungaled  It can do some light harrass at least though.
But yeah, I agree with you that units shouldn't be only useful for exactly one thing. A unit doesn't need to be amazing at everything (I think the ghost used to be extremely multi-faceted at its peak, and then it got nerfed into oblivion as a result, went from hero to zero, and now nothing else can fill some of its positions), but it should fill multiple roles.
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On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units.
Ah, I'm a little outdated with Protoss play, outside of PvT. I just want to mention that Stephano himself said pheonix upgrade was worthless b/c pheonix are pretty terrible in PvZ. That's just his take, obviously doesn't make it an ultimatum.
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On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units.
Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade.
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On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade.
I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options.
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On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options.
I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD
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On March 23 2012 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options. I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD
I forgot to mention, they are cost effective without any micro. Try it in a unit tester if you don't believe me.
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On March 23 2012 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options. I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD
Phoenix also lack the acceleration of mutas by quite a lot. This may seem like a small issue, but it means that they have a huge problem if they are attempting to fight mutas from a dead stop. They also have a hard time running mutas down before they can get to safety.
But back to the topic that spawned this, the viking. If terrans want to talk about a dumb, poorly designed, limited use unit that protoss will agree is bad, it is the viking. Beyond being necessary to counter colossi and broodlords, the unit does little for the match up. It is much like the colossi in the fact that is just sits there and does damage. You kinda micro it, but mostly it just hangs out and spams rockets. It does have the added bonus of totally ruining carriers for SC2 as a whole. And BCs in TvT. There is nothing better than end game TvT, which is just blobs of vikings launching rockets into each other, with ravens trying to do something interesting.
If you can't tell, I dislike the viking a lot. I would rather terran have a ground counter to air units and was super effective, but not mobile. Give terrans area control to limit the use of the death ball by threatening the colossi. Also, it would be able to shoot units on the ground without transforming. But this is pie in the sky stuff and vikings are not leaving.
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On March 23 2012 12:33 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options. I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD I forgot to mention, they are cost effective without any micro. Try it in a unit tester if you don't believe me.
No offense to you in particular (as I see this argument quite often), but why on Earth would two clumps of units ever be tested without micro? Regardless of the outcome, if Zergs are a-moving their flocks of mutalisks into Protoss territory without paying attention, they deserve to lose them. Same goes for any player sending their units into an enemy base without microing.
That's not to say that the micro has to be perfect (obviously, players will be worried about other parts of the game besides this particular engagement), but I find it to be incredibly unrealistic for non-micro battles to be good arguments.
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The Phoenix upgrade shouldn't be range, it should give splash damage.
BOOM.
Problem solved.
The only reason toss has such a hard time vs Mutas in the first place is they have no aoe that hits air except Archons and Storm and both are relatively immobile. Terran doesn't have such a problem even though Thors move slow because Terran can just repair and make Turrets/Thors a lot more effective whereas Toss only has HT tech which can't be repaired, runs out of energy and less range.
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This is just an idea, but maybe some issues could be solved with a reduction to the Reaper build time- hear me out....
Originally the rate at which you could get Reapers early game was retarded and they were completely stupid. When they got nerfed I was glad even though I was Terran. However, not only did they get nerfed twice in the same patch (build time increase and nitro packs on factory), and not only had earlier patches made them slightly less stupid, but later nerfs to Terran in general and especially the Barracks have added somewhat to the uselessness of Reapers... maybe if they kept the recent nerfs (meant for other issues) but dropped the build time a little, they would be worth building once the proper number of Marauders and Ghosts are on the field.
If they only didn't take up so much Barracks time, Reapers would be pretty nice high damage fast units at 1 supply, same as a Marine, with a much greater attack vs light and buildings. Keep the factory requirement for speed, and the reapers would probably return to their original design as raiders, but also be nice DPS to float around the bio ball. It would be pretty exciting to watch the pro multitasking happen with that sort of thing.
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On March 23 2012 12:52 BeeNu wrote:
The Phoenix upgrade shouldn't be range, it should give splash damage.
BOOM.
Problem solved.
The only reason toss has such a hard time vs Mutas in the first place is they have no aoe that hits air except Archons and Storm and both are relatively immobile. Terran doesn't have such a problem even though Thors move slow because Terran can just repair and make Turrets/Thors a lot more effective whereas Toss only has HT tech which can't be repaired, runs out of energy and less range.
Turn the phoenix into a corsair? Me likey :D
I wonder if that would kill mutalisk builds. Perhaps not if that upgrade is still ridiculously late and expensive >.>
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On March 23 2012 12:33 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options. I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD I forgot to mention, they are cost effective without any micro. Try it in a unit tester if you don't believe me.
Phoenix with 1/1/1 ups are amazing vs muta unless there are like twice as many mutas, and even then kiss most of those mutas goodbye.
The problem is if you make 12 phoenix vs 16 mutas and they let the mutas die and transition into something else with infestors.
It's a lot of supply and resources which are almost useless now.
I think the important thing with phoenix like that is that if the mutas are dealt with you need to get to work with those phoenix. they have paid for themselves, the mutas are dead, it's ok to lose them now. In fact, it might even be better to.
Go kill overlords, pickup queens, whatever but get the damn phoenix count down and remax on something else.
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Even as a Plat zerg player, i've gotten maybe 2 terrans in my last 20 matches, i miss you little guys, where you go?!?!?!?
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On March 23 2012 12:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 12:25 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 11:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 11:13 memcpy wrote:On March 23 2012 11:09 LightSpectra wrote:On March 23 2012 11:07 SupLilSon wrote:
Or like Protoss building pheonix just to counter Mutas. What are pheonix supposed to do against anything else zerg makes O.o Worker harass, picking up infestors? Players like ST_AcE have plenty of success with late-game PvZ air units. Yes, not to mention it's cheaper for the protoss player in every way even if the phoenix do nothing else. Stargate is cheaper than spire and phoenix is cost effective against mutas, and this is without the +2 range upgrade. I don't actually think that phoenix are cost-effective against mutalisks. Phoenix can chase away a few mutalisks but a good number of mutalisks are still going to force an engagement every few seconds and snipe a phoenix every now and again. Plus, no one ever gets the range upgrade on the phoenix because it's not the range that's the problem- it's the fact that you need a shit ton of phoenix to truly counter the critical mass of mutas if a Zerg player wants to get that many. And that's pretty much not what a Protoss player wants to invest in because of the possibility of a tech switch... so blink and storm and cannons are far better options. I'd have to agree. On paper the pheonix is a great counter to mutalisks, the only problem is they require constant attention and micro to reach that potential. All the while, the mutalisk is fairly well rounded while the pheonix is fairly specialized. It puts the Protoss player is a very similar situations to Terrans making vikings in TvP. Great, you stopped the mutalisks, but what do you do now with 30 supply of pheonix when they are making ultras or roaches? Seems like we've strayed pretty far from the OP topic XD Phoenix also lack the acceleration of mutas by quite a lot. This may seem like a small issue, but it means that they have a huge problem if they are attempting to fight mutas from a dead stop. They also have a hard time running mutas down before they can get to safety. But back to the topic that spawned this, the viking. If terrans want to talk about a dumb, poorly designed, limited use unit that protoss will agree is bad, it is the viking. Beyond being necessary to counter colossi and broodlords, the unit does little for the match up. It is much like the colossi in the fact that is just sits there and does damage. You kinda micro it, but mostly it just hangs out and spams rockets. It does have the added bonus of totally ruining carriers for SC2 as a whole. And BCs in TvT. There is nothing better than end game TvT, which is just blobs of vikings launching rockets into each other, with ravens trying to do something interesting. If you can't tell, I dislike the viking a lot. I would rather terran have a ground counter to air units and was super effective, but not mobile. Give terrans area control to limit the use of the death ball by threatening the colossi. Also, it would be able to shoot units on the ground without transforming. But this is pie in the sky stuff and vikings are not leaving.
Yea, I've experienced first hand the dismay when you tab to your pheonix to realize their in danger and they are so fast but it takes them some time to start moving. In the right hands they may never really stop moving, at least not for very long. I feel like it's comparable in apm and attention as all the maneuvers us Terrans have to practice and for Protoss players in this same skill range (masters down) might find it difficult to use pheonix to counter mutas effectively.
It's nice too see we agree on something heh.
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On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 05:10 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 03:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2012 22:08 Hossinaut wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Khr91.png) This was lolzy :D There are no terrans? This may be too much evidence You're joking right? Yesterday morning I was looking for a stream and there were 0 Protoss and about 5 Terrans (most of which were Korean). What does that mean to you? Right now there's Tarson and Kas and Naruto and merz for Terran, and only... desrow for Protoss -____- Silliest "evidence" ever. In fact, there are almost always fewer Protosses than Terrans and Zergs who stream. But I would never say that implies imbalance. 12,000 posts and you can't see that it's clearly a joke? Come on man.. And I have to agree with everything Avilo said. Terran is forced to make a wide array of units to deal with different tech paths P/Z can throw at them. It can be insanely hard for Terrans to scout correctly and many rely on a lucky scan or drop for that information. Every unit is so specialized that if you over make one, under make another, it will almost always cost you dearly. We've all seen it, the Pro Terran who builds vikings blindly b/c if you don't you'll 100% lose to any collosus play and then promptly get rolled by gateway/immortal or something along those lines. I wish SC2 rewarded micro and mechanics more over "decision making". MMMGV o.O And that's it. How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when: 1. So many Terran units are underused ( BCs, mech in TvP, etc.) 2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted? Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*. Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths).
You are so clueless. I would really like to see in what league(rank) you are, because it's really annoying to see you whining/theory crafting in every single balance related thread, with same stupid arguments who are just to increase your post count.
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On March 23 2012 07:40 mahi29 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:31 iAmJeffReY wrote:On March 23 2012 07:27 Whitewing wrote:On March 23 2012 07:05 Poopi wrote:
Lol VTPerfect, terran's macro is the easiest and most forgiving? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?
Terran's supply mechanic is the hardest and most unforgiving, first of all, the production / barracks timings are hard to master (especially because you can't play passive). Oh and you have to balance your production / power up with income greatly affected by mules, thus lower when attacking (cuz of scans) and higher while harassing/defending.
Bio's macro is hard, mech's might not be but you can't mech in every MU anyways Terran's have the roughest supply mechanic? Are you joking? You have supply drop, a 50 energy spell that gives you 8 supply for free and is almost as cost effective as a MULE (given mining time lost, the fact that the 100 minerals are retroactive since you'd have to start building the supply depot a while ago, and other factors). I don't think building supply depots are inherently any harder than building pylons or overlords. You just look at your supply to see if you need to build them, then spend the money, and then you wait for it to build. Production for terran is no harder or easier than production for protoss (I might suggest that protoss has it a little harder since you don't have the option of queuing a little bit before the unit finishes so that you don't miss out on production time with warp gates, and you have to look away from the battle to warp units in so you can't micro as much). Even if you miss a warp cycle by a little bit, you can still get 2 warps ins easily before I can produce 2 cycles out of barracks, with queing taking minerals away early. How exactly? Theoretically speaking, if both T and P have a unit that takes 30 seconds to construct. For P, said unit warps in and then the gate cooldown is 30 sec. So in a given minute - both players can construct 2 of a unit. The difference between P and T as far production goes is that P gets their unit first and then waits and for T its the other way around. And for both races, if you forget to build, you lose that time forever. However with T, you can queue up units and not worry about missing production cycles - assume minerals aren't a problem. So in late-game scenarios, a terran can queue up his rax completely - since he has a bank and a protoss would have to hit all his warp ins perfectly to keep up - hypothetically anyway.
Uhhh... If you are queuing your rax, you will probably lose anyway...
And I believe what he means is that you can chrono boost your warp gates and get another cycle out quicker.
I'm still laughing at your que theory. LOL
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EPT
