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On March 23 2012 09:04 Baum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:33 VTPerfect wrote:On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player  The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss. I think there is alot of bias in your assessment. Firstly Terran Units may require more baby sitting on average than Protoss units, but Terran macro mechanics are extremely easy and forgiving. Terran starts out with Detection as soon as the OC is made This makes Build Order loss due to lack of detection highly unlikely. If a Protoss player does the Parting build and Terran went Cloak Banshee, game over. You think the Terran deserved to win cause he blindly decided to gamble cloak? Terran economies are very hard to damage, Protoss has 20 probes vs 50 scvs? game over so badly its not even funny. Protoss has 50 probes to 20 SCV? Terran actually might just win. We've all seen in it. Another advantage Terran has over Protoss is the opening build order, If I know without a shadow of a doubt you are going to no gas 1 rax CC, there is nothing I can do to punish you. If I no gas Nexus and u do anything but no gas 1 rax fe or 1/1/1 im dead game over. Having to get detection in most of your games doesn't put Protoss behind at all. You have to account for the fact that most of the time Protoss players want to get a robo and an observer anyway. The Parting build is designed to be used against a gasless expansion and even if a Terran plays incredibly greedy and goes for cloak after this you can still come out ahead because he has a miniature ground army and your counter attack can do a lot of damage while you get detection. You think the Protoss deserves to get a free advantage cause he blindly decided to gamble a fast third without detection? Sorry to say but if you are really arguing that Terrans are able to come back when they are 30 workers behind you are full of shit. Show me a couple examples where that happens without horrible mistakes from the Protoss player. Also you have to always account for OCs when counting worker differences. If a player is 15 workers down but has 3 OCs his situations is obviously not as bad as it seems if you only look at the difference in workers. Why should there be a blind counter to a gasless fe? It would only make the game worse. There is no blind counter to a 1 gate expand neither. Protoss doesn't have to go nexus first to be even with a no gas 1 rax CC. Also there are a lot of ways to pressure or kill a Terran who goes for a fast expand(3/4/5/6 gate, 3gate voidray, blink all in, immortal bust). The equivalent of a nexus first would be a cc first which is a lot more flimsy. You could even turn around your argument and say: As a Terran I have to get gas to be able to punish a nexus first build a Protoss can scout and react accordingly to a CC first. Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 06:33 VTPerfect wrote:I may be able to punish you if you went double gas factory off 1 rax CC but vs 1 rax CC 2 rax into double gas its safe vs everything. But there is no way ever for me to know which one you did because by the time an Obs or Hallu sees what you went the opening is closed where as your Scan mechanic as a good chance of identifying what tech tree im going which doubles as your hardly ever lose to cloak mechanic. Terran scouting is pretty bad until you can move out on the map around 10 minutes. To truly know what your opponent is doing you have to hit a lucky scan while a Protoss player gets map control with stalkers early against anything but a 2rax and has an obs in the terran base at around the 7 minute mark. So I have the same Problem against 1gate expand into quick collosus or anything like that.
Let's not forget scouting late game tech switches, I always LMAO when a protoss says that he was so smart because he chose to tech switch to 3 robo colossus and I didn't see it coming, as if I could scan around everywhere to get a colossus count/robo count or even have the same strategy in my arsenal in the first place, the only tech switch available to terran takes 5 years to finish(bcs), is easily scoutable and apparently doens't even win(GSL).
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... You think a transition to 3robo colo isn't a smart tech switch? The fact you didnt see it/notice it happen/let it happen is your own awful fault.
A tech switch that is generally viable is having your army composed of 3-4 colo,many blink stalkers and a few templar/archon/zealots (but meat is in blink/colo) than when the battle happens you warp in 20 gates worht of templar/zealot and tech switch from this colo/storm/blink'esc army into chargelot/archon army.
3 robo + production time? that's a pretty big investment of time, you just played bad.
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On March 23 2012 05:10 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 22 2012 22:08 Hossinaut wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Khr91.png) This was lolzy :D There are no terrans? This may be too much evidence You're joking right? Yesterday morning I was looking for a stream and there were 0 Protoss and about 5 Terrans (most of which were Korean). What does that mean to you? Right now there's Tarson and Kas and Naruto and merz for Terran, and only... desrow for Protoss -____- Silliest "evidence" ever. In fact, there are almost always fewer Protosses than Terrans and Zergs who stream. But I would never say that implies imbalance. 12,000 posts and you can't see that it's clearly a joke? Come on man.. And I have to agree with everything Avilo said. Terran is forced to make a wide array of units to deal with different tech paths P/Z can throw at them. It can be insanely hard for Terrans to scout correctly and many rely on a lucky scan or drop for that information. Every unit is so specialized that if you over make one, under make another, it will almost always cost you dearly. We've all seen it, the Pro Terran who builds vikings blindly b/c if you don't you'll 100% lose to any collosus play and then promptly get rolled by gateway/immortal or something along those lines. I wish SC2 rewarded micro and mechanics more over "decision making".
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths).
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On March 23 2012 10:03 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
... You think a transition to 3robo colo isn't a smart tech switch? The fact you didnt see it/notice it happen/let it happen is your own awful fault.
A tech switch that is generally viable is having your army composed of 3-4 colo,many blink stalkers and a few templar/archon/zealots (but meat is in blink/colo) than when the battle happens you warp in 20 gates worht of templar/zealot and tech switch from this colo/storm/blink'esc army into chargelot/archon army.
3 robo + production time? that's a pretty big investment of time, you just played bad.
What does 3 robo have anything to do with the production time?If you didn't know, the production time remains the same regardless of how many buildings you have!!!
Also, 3 colossus are good enough to finish a game if there aren't any vikings being built ( if you actually preemptively build vikings and end up facing no colossus, you die anyway), and it isn't smart because it's very easy to pull off, standard, and very hard to scout, how can you ever know that there are 3 robos separetely building colossus if they aren't put together?And you can't simply scan everywhere, you need the mules to keep up in econ in the first place, because you've already sacked a ton of scvs getting into the late game.
Another thing that should be considered, is it even useful to scout with scans in the late game?What impedes the toss from cancelling the colossi* as soon as the scan runs out and you from dying after you thought you correctly responded by building tons of vikings?
On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone.
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On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths).
You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success.
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On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:The validity of the post, all gone.
Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post.
Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem.
But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies.
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United States13143 Posts
On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies.
Underused is not the same word as unused. By saying underused, you're implying that you think it should be used more.
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On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success.
And I think that's a big problem.
I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity).
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On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies.
I meant that even suggesting mech as something usable in TvP is extremely naive, tanks, the core unit, melts to anything protoss related, though I should've pointed out that "mech", to me, means a full blown macro strategy, not some silly 1-2 base strats that that can't survive anything past a certain point.
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On March 23 2012 10:26 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies. Underused is not the same word as unused. By saying underused, you're implying that you think it should be used more.
I think everyone (especially Terran) wishes that each race could have the option to use all their units in each match-up. I even posted that I thought Terran uses the fewest number of their race's units in general. And it's a pity that mech isn't viable in TvP, and so we don't see it very often. (In fact, we almost never see it.) Optimally, it would be an option, and mech would be useful. Therefore, it's both underused and unused, as it's underused because it's unused and it would be ideal if it could be used (lol). But that would require patching.
Regardless, it's pretty damn clear that he ignored my post, thought I said mech was viable, and then posted a one-liner. As, again, shown by this:
On March 23 2012 10:30 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies. I meant that even suggesting mech as something usable in TvP is extremely naive, tanks, the core unit, melts to anything protoss related, though I should've pointed out that "mech", to me, means a full blown macro strategy, not some silly 1-2 base strats that that can't survive anything past a certain point.
...because this I did not say -.-'
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On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity).
What exactly are you getting at?
Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all.
Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason.
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On March 23 2012 09:07 mishimaBeef wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jA0R1.jpg) Hmm where did all the terrans go. -_-
most of those players are koreans
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On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity). What exactly are you getting at? Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all. Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason.
Well first of all, you were complaining that you have too many different types of units to make, and I demonstrated that that's simply not the case. You have to carefully adjust your unit composition between 5 main units, sure, but that's not even remotely close to the same thing.
Second, while I agree with you that vikings aren't versatile (marauders are pretty damn good against a lot of things; they just can't shoot up), marines and ghosts are two great examples of things that *are* versatile. You really can't go wrong with having too many ghosts.
Third, I was the one who agreed that mech was worthless in TvP, but was hoping that it eventually will become viable (although it'll probably take patching).
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On March 23 2012 10:42 HellionDrop wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 09:07 mishimaBeef wrote:Hmm where did all the terrans go. -_- most of those players are koreans
plus their teams submitted one player each to participate, it's not like 100 terrans qualified.
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On March 23 2012 10:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:26 Elyvilon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies. Underused is not the same word as unused. By saying underused, you're implying that you think it should be used more. I think everyone (especially Terran) wishes that each race could have the option to use all their units in each match-up. I even posted that I thought Terran uses the fewest number of their race's units in general. And it's a pity that mech isn't viable in TvP, and so we don't see it very often. (In fact, we almost never see it.) Optimally, it would be an option, and mech would be useful. Therefore, it's both underused and unused, as it's underused because it's unused and it would be ideal if it could be used (lol). But that would require patching. Regardless, it's pretty damn clear that he ignored my post, thought I said mech was viable, and then posted a one-liner. As, again, shown by this: Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:30 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:11 R!! wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
(mech in TvP)
The validity of the post, all gone. Oh really? You think mech in TvP is used to great success in the match up? Because I said it was extremely underused, and surely you actually read my post. Please cite some pro-games where the Terran uses mech, because I would love to see that. Quite frankly, I don't see mech used much at all, and I think Terrans and non-Terrans alike recognize this. It's a problem. But alas, it's your argument to make. Go ahead and post some replays of viable TvP mech strategies. I meant that even suggesting mech as something usable in TvP is extremely naive, tanks, the core unit, melts to anything protoss related, though I should've pointed out that "mech", to me, means a full blown macro strategy, not some silly 1-2 base strats that that can't survive anything past a certain point. ...because this I did not say -.-'
I'm sorry, I probably misunderstood you, but "1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.) " sounded to me like you thought that mech could/should be used more, though now that I look at it again, it seems like you just wanted to say that you don't see much variety coming from the terrans at all, which is kind of a moot point, for a strat/unit to be used, it must have some rate of effectiveness.
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On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:
Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason.
Yeah, this. If anyone is looking for a reason this is true, just look at the complete list of patch notes. Every patch to Protoss and Terran has either made bio better, mech worse, Protoss better at killing mech, or mech worse at killing Protoss.
It's pretty much cemented MMMGV as the only composition outside of timings allins and cheese.
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I honestly have lost interest in playing this game. Maybe the game is balanced or maybe it's not... it's just not a good feeling being nerfed every patch is all
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On March 23 2012 10:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 10:36 SupLilSon wrote:On March 23 2012 10:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 23 2012 10:14 Orracle wrote:On March 23 2012 10:10 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
MMMGV o.O
And that's it.
How can you complain that Terran has to make too many types of units as a reaction to the other player's tech paths, when:
1. So many Terran units are underused (BCs, mech in TvP, etc.)
2. Your units are so damn multi-faceted?
Perhaps it gets boring to go different amounts of MMMGV every game, but I think you're the only Terran who I've seen whine that he has to build *too many different Terran units*.
Zerg and Protoss have far more versatile unit compositions from game to game, which is sometimes good (creativity, makes the opponent need to scout, etc.) and sometimes bad (each different unit may be best in certain situations and against certain other units, and so they're occasionally forced down very different tech paths). You're correct, MMMGV is the only tech path Terran has in TvP because it's the only feasible one. How many pros have you seen try a mech style in TvP and win? None that I can think of. I think Supernova and Gumiho tried it with no success. And I think that's a big problem. I'm not sure if Blizzard wants to throw the current balance of the game into disarray though by introducing revolutionary patches, as some pretty drastic changes may need to be made- and I think the new mech units for Terran HotS will make that unit composition a lot stronger... but that obviously doesn't solve the monotonous match-up we currently see in WoL (and that's a pity). What exactly are you getting at? Terran is forced to constantly tailor their unit composition in reaction to P/Z unit choices. I think we've established that somewhere in these 120 pages. And I would hardly call the viking versatile or the marauder. These 2 units are extreme examples of Terran units that essentially serve 1 role in each matchup and can be easily abused because of it. Hardly versatile at all. Again, I'm kinda confused as to what the point your trying to make is. Mech is completely worthless in TvP unless there is some massive revelation waiting to happen. It's not underused, it's not used for a reason. Well first of all, you were complaining that you have too many different types of units to make, and I demonstrated that that's simply not the case. You have to carefully adjust your unit composition between 5 main units, sure, but that's not even remotely close to the same thing. Second, while I agree with you that vikings aren't versatile (marauders are pretty damn good against a lot of things; they just can't shoot up), marines and ghosts are two great examples of things that *are* versatile. You really can't go wrong with having too many ghosts. Third, I was the one who agreed that mech was worthless in TvP, but was hoping that it eventually will become viable (although it'll probably take patching).
Yea, I misunderstood you. I thought you were implying that mech should be used more because it's some super secret amazing strategy. After reading your later posts I kinda came to the conclusion that we were actually in agreement about mech. Sorry XD. And just to clarify, I'm not complaining about having too many units to make. Obviously, it would be great if I had so many great units to make that I couldn't choose, but that's not the case here, not at all. My complaint is more along the lines of why in the current meta game are Terrans forced to make Vikings in TvP and TvZ when they're sole purpose is to counter a single unit. The Viking is utterly useless outside of it's one role and over-committing/under-committing to vikings is a common theme in Terran losses nowadays. It's not an imbalance or OP whine, just a silly metagame issue IMO. As it is right now, Terran can possibly avoid making a fleet of vikings in TvZ to combat BL, by using more aggressive strategies and trying to abuse BL immobility. Not nearly the same situation in TvP where the collosus can zip around easily with the rest of the deathball and warpins do well to combat hyper aggressive harass lategame and leave Terran open for a frontal assault. There is no other way to go against collosus outside of making vikings or hitting a good timing before range finishes or before protoss gets more than 1 collo. To me it just seems silly that Terran's only viable option for certain unit comps is a completely one dimensional pos.
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They realised that they were playing Humans in a game where you could play as badass aliens of immense strenght or intelligence???
I never understood people who'd pick the humans in that scenario 
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In regards to TvP mech: I'm low Masters and had some success with it, though I'm aware that low Masters NA is basically meaningless in the context of the whole game.
That being said: you can't just go mass thor/siege tank. That's a terrible strategy, since it's hard countered by mass immortal (plus blink stalker/zealot of course), in addition to thors being susceptible to feedback. But that's precisely the same reason why MMM frequently falls apart in the late-game, considering storm/colossi is an AoE deathzone that's inescapable with a chargelot surround.
The 1/1/1 push is really powerful because it's easy to climb the entire terran tech tree off of one base, and thus requires a very specific combination of units to counter, which is really easy for Protoss to blunder up at the 100-120 food mark. That's the way mech needs to be done against Protoss, really. Terran players should always get ghosts since EMP is instantaneous AoE damage. You shouldn't get too many tanks, but rather only a handful (I usually stop at a dozen). The rest of the DPS needs to be filled with marine/mauader. Combine this with banshee/drop harass to force micro mistakes on the Protoss' part and you're good to go.
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EPT
