EPTJust my 2 cents, I honestly don't see tvp changing at all, atleast from the terran side.
Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 122
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
Just my 2 cents, I honestly don't see tvp changing at all, atleast from the terran side. | ||
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mahi29
United States235 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:31 iAmJeffReY wrote: Even if you miss a warp cycle by a little bit, you can still get 2 warps ins easily before I can produce 2 cycles out of barracks, with queing taking minerals away early. How exactly? Theoretically speaking, if both T and P have a unit that takes 30 seconds to construct. For P, said unit warps in and then the gate cooldown is 30 sec. So in a given minute - both players can construct 2 of a unit. The difference between P and T as far production goes is that P gets their unit first and then waits and for T its the other way around. And for both races, if you forget to build, you lose that time forever. However with T, you can queue up units and not worry about missing production cycles - assume minerals aren't a problem. So in late-game scenarios, a terran can queue up his rax completely - since he has a bank and a protoss would have to hit all his warp ins perfectly to keep up - hypothetically anyway. | ||
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mahi29
United States235 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:36 OrangeSoda wrote: I wonder if terran mech late game would be viable if it shared upgrades with the bio. I always wondered why the protoss forge upgrades affect all of the gateway units + mech(robo tech), im guessing because its how it worked it BW. Where if terran want to add mech to their army they got to get completley different upgrades from another building. Adding 0/0 mech late game tvp would be a silly thing to do, but if mech shared upgrades with bio( like it does with protoss) i wonder if adding 3/3 tanks/thors would help late game tvp. I can see this breaking TvZ because terran go bio/mech anyways, just throwing out ideas. Just imagine if the forge upgrades didn't affect collosus/immortals, where you have to go to another building for seperate upgrades for them. Just my 2 cents, I honestly don't see tvp changing at all, atleast from the terran side. Don't forget that technically for protoss to match terran in upgrades, it has to have 3-3-3. Which is 3 more upgrades than a bioball needs. Still, as a protoss player, I've wondered that too - why our robo units share upgrades w/ gateway units. | ||
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Ice Climber
United States46 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:40 mahi29 wrote: How exactly? Theoretically speaking, if both T and P have a unit that takes 30 seconds to construct. For P, said unit warps in and then the gate cooldown is 30 sec. So in a given minute - both players can construct 2 of a unit. The difference between P and T as far production goes is that P gets their unit first and then waits and for T its the other way around. And for both races, if you forget to build, you lose that time forever. However with T, you can queue up units and not worry about missing production cycles - assume minerals aren't a problem. So in late-game scenarios, a terran can queue up his rax completely - since he has a bank and a protoss would have to hit all his warp ins perfectly to keep up - hypothetically anyway. Except only marines take less than 30 seconds. Marauders take exactly 30, irrc.. Ghosts don't. Reapers don't. Also not to mention all terran units have the slowest fucking possible accel/basespeed for everything sans the hellion. Not to mention your instant cycle is where ever you want, same with 2nd cycle. I have to have mine walk out of a building usually to cross a giant map. | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:42 Ice Climber wrote: Terran really just need firebats. Goliaths with their anti-air and maybe the campaign upgrade with which they can shoot up and down simultaneously. They'll pwn Colossi as well as the zealots =D | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:42 mahi29 wrote: Don't forget that technically for protoss to match terran in upgrades, it has to have 3-3-3. Which is 3 more upgrades than a bioball needs. Still, as a protoss player, I've wondered that too - why our robo units share upgrades w/ gateway units. True, but the shield upgrade helps protoss ground/air/buildings. | ||
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Kamse
Denmark6 Posts
Maps Maps Maps. It would certainly help to get smaller maps back on the ladder. I know this doesnt actually change our weak position in the late game, but having a smaller map from the start would force Z/P into being more defensive and not expanding so fast as they are atm. It would enable us to expand more freely (when we feel like it), keeping the Z/P from expanding as they are now with more pressure, and keep an edge with that enough to make late game more even (we make late game even by getting there faster, so to say). Yes, making T units stronger in lategame would be the prober solution, but this is the easy way out. We all know the feeling of fx. walking across the map for 10 mins with your vulnerable siege army. | ||
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On March 23 2012 06:33 VTPerfect wrote: I think there is alot of bias in your assessment. Firstly Terran Units may require more baby sitting on average than Protoss units, but Terran macro mechanics are extremely easy and forgiving. Terran starts out with Detection as soon as the OC is made This makes Build Order loss due to lack of detection highly unlikely. If a Protoss player does the Parting build and Terran went Cloak Banshee, game over. You think the Terran deserved to win cause he blindly decided to gamble cloak? Terran economies are very hard to damage, Protoss has 20 probes vs 50 scvs? game over so badly its not even funny. Protoss has 50 probes to 20 SCV? Terran actually might just win. We've all seen in it. Another advantage Terran has over Protoss is the opening build order, If I know without a shadow of a doubt you are going to no gas 1 rax CC, there is nothing I can do to punish you. If I no gas Nexus and u do anything but no gas 1 rax fe or 1/1/1 im dead game over. Terran macro extremely easy, is this actually a troll? If terran gets supply blocked for 20sec, your unit will come 20sec AFTER you arent supply blocked while protoss unit comes INSTANTLY after pylon is done, I wonder which one is less forgiving. "terran starts with perma detection and free 8 supply crap" - let me explain to you the game. Mules are in game so that terran can keep up with P/Z with chrono/larva, its not free 280 minerals adventage in early game its 280 minerals to cover for chrono/larva, so if you actually use supply drop you took yourself 180 minerals early game and your build will be delayed 180 minerals (100 depo) and having risk of losing that depo and going in red supply which means your 3 marines (150mins) will be delayed for the amount of time needed to mine those 180 minerals and you can lose the game because of it. If protoss goes for Parting build whichever build it is and has no detection I can imagine its some greedy FE with mass upgrades and tech with 0 detection and you whine thats terran not deserved win? What if I go 1 rax into 2 CC's and make no bunker and say "ffs this game is dumb I died to 3g...too much coinflip" - no I was just greedy playing without basic stuff your race needs. "Protoss has 50 probes to 20 scv terran might win?" This ONLY and ONLY can happen if protoss does 6g ALLIN (which is why its called ALLIN because if you dont kill opponent you will most likely lose) and kills 20 scvs and he had 6gates while terran has upgraded bio with stim/shields/shells, medivacs and +1 or +1/1 what is there hard to understand why protoss loses? If terran makes 10 rax with no gas off 2 base and he kills protoss natural while he was teching to colossus, gets 3 colossus and goes to kill terran, do you think terrans will say "derp I had 100 un-upgraded marines with no stim or shields how did I lose to higher tier units with 50 range". Please, think. But please, feel free to post replay of game being completely even in tech and then its 20 scv to 50 probes and terran wins, I'd love to see it. "Another adventage faster CC" - ok so TvZ has zerg adventage every game and terran is behind and needs to do miracle to come back, not really just how the game is. Hit chrono on probes and you will be ahead 10+ workers in 2min. "there is nothing I can do to punish 1 rax fe" - blink stalker allin will kill terran 1 rax fe on 99% of maps if terran doesnt know on start its coming. Also tip - defending 1-1-1 is much easier if you get your natural faster, so I dont see how getting gasless FE as protoss is bad vs 1-1-1. | ||
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TheSamuraj
Netherlands27 Posts
Another point is that the amount of effort to be taken on both sides is imbalanced, i feel. The protoss has the easy part here as they need to amove their gateway+collusi army and aim their storms in the middle. If u want to get better with that u make sure u target fire vikings, feedback ghosts, dont clump up hts and try to get a good angle. The terran has to do more than that. They have to engage in an open area, split up, stim, emp hts(if u miss one u will lose half of ur marines), get ur vikings to attack the collusi (dont get them all in the same hotkey group), kite and preferably all at once. If one of those factors isnt there and the supplies and upgrades are even, u will lose. And even if u manage to win, ur standing army is usually not big enough to take the game because of the chargelot warp in. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:40 mahi29 wrote: How exactly? Theoretically speaking, if both T and P have a unit that takes 30 seconds to construct. For P, said unit warps in and then the gate cooldown is 30 sec. So in a given minute - both players can construct 2 of a unit. The difference between P and T as far production goes is that P gets their unit first and then waits and for T its the other way around. And for both races, if you forget to build, you lose that time forever. However with T, you can queue up units and not worry about missing production cycles - assume minerals aren't a problem. So in late-game scenarios, a terran can queue up his rax completely - since he has a bank and a protoss would have to hit all his warp ins perfectly to keep up - hypothetically anyway. Lets disregard the "given minute" and look what happens at 61-89 seconds, if you may? You also completely disregard the fact that you can even improve the output of your warpgates by chronoboosting them? You dont lose the time with protoss. Even if you miss a circle by 5 seconds, chronoboost the gates, and you make up for the time. You have the chronoboost anyway. So, yeah, a terran can queue up all his barracks (and with that, spend his entire bank with little to nothing left, which actually can hurt you, and you have to "unqueue stuff"), but it doesnt help at all. Please, do the math with chronoboost and for 61 seconds. Would be fun to read, i guess. But i also guess, you pretty much knew that beforehand, just tried to hide that little fact. edit: forgot to mention the fact that terran units take even longer in a real situation, because one needs to run them across the map (with the probability to get intercepted and cut off reinforcements), while protoss gateway-armys pretty much are created at least near the battle, if not directly behind your army. So you can add the walk-time to the productiontime as well, at least if youre attacking as terran - just because a protoss does NOT have to wait that much before the first cycle arrives. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On March 23 2012 08:06 m4inbrain wrote: Lets disregard the "given minute" and look what happens at 61-89 seconds, if you may? You also completely disregard the fact that you can even improve the output of your warpgates by chronoboosting them? You dont lose the time with protoss. Even if you miss a circle by 5 seconds, chronoboost the gates, and you make up for the time. You have the chronoboost anyway. So, yeah, a terran can queue up all his barracks (and with that, spend his entire bank with little to nothing left, which actually can hurt you, and you have to "unqueue stuff"), but it doesnt help at all. Please, do the math with chronoboost and for 61 seconds. Would be fun to read, i guess. But i also guess, you pretty much knew that beforehand, just tried to hide that little fact. Don't forget that you can still rally even if the opponent is next to your warpgates instead of insta-losing all units that trickle out of barracks. | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On March 23 2012 06:58 Bluerain wrote: all i see is a bunch of whine. look at the GSL racial balance. if they can do it, so can you. and if you dont wanna put the effort into it, then dont be a pro gamer. if ur not a progamer, then u shouldnt really care much about balance. sc2 is like life, certain races need to work harder than others to achieve the same amount of success. u wanna give up just cus its unfair then go ahead. Out. Just get out. We've gone over everything in your post over the last 100 pages and established that GSL racial distributions means little to nothing in terms of this discussion. This kid obviously didn't even read a single comment before making such a stupid post. Also, how have people not realized by now that Mules simply allow Terran to keep a relatively even economic footing, nothing more. Sure, in the late late game they have increased potential but overall, there's nothing "forgiving" about Mules. Watch any standard TvP or ZvT. Terran will quickly fall behind 10-15 workers at least. Even while being on top of your Mules, Terran can't stay even in economy without inflicting damage. Anyone who thinks Mules boost Terran eco above a P/Z who is macroing semi well has obviously never played Terran. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On March 23 2012 08:13 Resistentialism wrote: Don't count the chronoboost unless you think chronoboost is the real culprit. Elsewise you need to account for muling in your production comparison which is really complicated. Well i cant mule barracks, can i? I dont even think that its the real culprit, im just saying if you compare the sheer amount of units you can pump, its normal to take that into account. Because its not "two cycles in 60 seconds" if you chronoboost, but its ALWAYS "two cycles for terran". Regardless of how much one mules. But if you want, disregard chronoboost and just tell me the amount of units on both sides at 61 to 89 seconds (which actually is a pretty big window). | ||
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
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Masq
Canada1792 Posts
Just about every person knows the flaws of terran. Obviously Blizzard is unable to balance the races at this point in time, most likely because it would require fundamental changes in the game. Stop bitching and wait for HoTS | ||
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huehuehuehue
Estonia455 Posts
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Aquila-
516 Posts
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