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On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it.
I don't think you understood what he meant. Being the race that always has to make something happen or die in the late game is more mentally taxing then playing defensively (especially if you know the timings of the agressions), at least for the majority of average gamers. "Pick another race?" Isn't it already happening? lol. Isn't that the whole point of this thread (where did all terran go?)?
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On March 22 2012 19:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues.  I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out. On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL.
To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice.
Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out. And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs. Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play. And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose. Whoa, whoa whoa... Protoss will put up with a lot of sillyness in this thread, but saying phoenix/carrier being viable against anything is going to far. That is like me telling terrans that Raven, Banshee is a good mix us units to counter anything. If you see a protoss going this route, you have about 9 years game time to get out the appropriate counter. Seriously, I am not going to argue that mech is totally viable, but phoenix/carrier is not good either.
When you split map with Mech, you can't ever attack so the Protoss has infinite time to tech to whatever he wants. and in such a scenario phoenix/carrier is insanely strong, because phoenix kill vikings and carriers kill every single mech unit. That was my argument and it is still true. Just try it, make 120 supply phoenix carrier and 120 supply viking thor and see what happens.
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On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem.
Mech is pretty damn viable against Zerg at least.
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On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem.
Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them.
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On March 23 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem. Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them.
You say that the toss has no option of playing greedy to a point where the zerg has to attack them or being behind? I'd say fast three nexi will trigger an attack by most zergs because they know that off 6 gas Protoss will reach their own maxed army with great upgrades ahead of them.
If terran opens CC/CC/rax, then most zergs or toss will attack because it's an easy win and not because they are at a disadvantage otherwise. If Zerg/Toss just throws down two expands of their own and use the time Terran cannot attack to tech, then they win as well.
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On March 23 2012 02:55 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:49 Plansix wrote:On March 22 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out. On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
[quote]
But that's a bad thing more than anything.
And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here.
[quote]
Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him.
[quote]
That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied.
[quote]
Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable.
And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out. And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs. Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play. And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose. Whoa, whoa whoa... Protoss will put up with a lot of sillyness in this thread, but saying phoenix/carrier being viable against anything is going to far. That is like me telling terrans that Raven, Banshee is a good mix us units to counter anything. If you see a protoss going this route, you have about 9 years game time to get out the appropriate counter. Seriously, I am not going to argue that mech is totally viable, but phoenix/carrier is not good either. When you split map with Mech, you can't ever attack so the Protoss has infinite time to tech to whatever he wants. and in such a scenario phoenix/carrier is insanely strong, because phoenix kill vikings and carriers kill every single mech unit. That was my argument and it is still true. Just try it, make 120 supply phoenix carrier and 120 supply viking thor and see what happens.
Not that i know exactly how this works but doesn't terran need a whole lot less workers at that point compared to the protoss? Isn't the whole remax thing the complete opposite when it comes to protoss depending on Phoenix/Carrier as vikings aren't that expensive and can be made two at a time?
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On March 23 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem. Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them.
Well, it's still one matchup, instead of every non mirror. So you do that 40% (I'm guessing) of the games while T does it like 80% (maybe even more considering T numbers are dropping).
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On March 23 2012 03:22 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem. Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them. You say that the toss has no option of playing greedy to a point where the zerg has to attack them or being behind? I'd say fast three nexi will trigger an attack by most zergs because they know that off 6 gas Protoss will reach their own maxed army with great upgrades ahead of them. If terran opens CC/CC/rax, then most zergs or toss will attack because it's an easy win and not because they are at a disadvantage otherwise. If Zerg/Toss just throws down two expands of their own and use the time Terran cannot attack to tech, then they win as well.
There is a big thread about this in the strategy forum at the moment. To summarise: since pvz starts at 2 base vs 3 base, if the protoss goes for a fast third then the zerg can be maxed on +1 speed roaches by the 12 minute mark. It isnt about being scared of protoss tech units as lategame zerg (broodlord tech) beats lategame protoss. It is that a fast third is punishable with just mass roaches. This is why you see protoss do 2 base attacks against zerg.
And while CC/CC/Rax is stupid, terrans can and sometimes do open rax/CC/CC against protoss. The third CC has to stay in their main for a long time, but they can at least produce extra scvs and mules.
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On March 22 2012 22:08 Hossinaut wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Khr91.png) This was lolzy :D There are no terrans? This may be too much evidence
You're joking right?
Yesterday morning I was looking for a stream and there were 0 Protoss and about 5 Terrans (most of which were Korean). What does that mean to you?
Right now there's Tarson and Kas and Naruto and merz for Terran, and only... desrow for Protoss -____-
Silliest "evidence" ever. In fact, there are almost always fewer Protosses than Terrans and Zergs who stream. But I would never say that implies imbalance.
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On March 23 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem. Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them.
Correct me if i am wrong, but i tought sc2 wanted to be a balanced and dynamic game. What is "played the way they should?". I never read anything that said how you should play any of the races. Most terrans just want to play without the late game time bomb pressure.
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On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle.
Everyone that thinks of Goody as a bad player should stop listening to casters so much. Yes, his mechanics may not be the best but obviously they are good enough to beat players like Nestea, Stephano and many others because his sick decision making makes up for it. He just won a game against Sjow with his Protoss so you can decide if it's because of the race or because he knows how to play the game.
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On March 23 2012 03:30 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:22 Thrombozyt wrote:On March 23 2012 03:16 Plansix wrote:On March 23 2012 02:51 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem. Well in PvZ the protoss has to attack or apply some pressure. You cannot sit back and try to out macro the zerg, or you will face the A-move army to end all A-move armies. And it will be no fault to the zerg at all, since they played the way they should and won because of it. There are other issues with TvP, but having to apply pressure in the early/mid game not one of them. You say that the toss has no option of playing greedy to a point where the zerg has to attack them or being behind? I'd say fast three nexi will trigger an attack by most zergs because they know that off 6 gas Protoss will reach their own maxed army with great upgrades ahead of them. If terran opens CC/CC/rax, then most zergs or toss will attack because it's an easy win and not because they are at a disadvantage otherwise. If Zerg/Toss just throws down two expands of their own and use the time Terran cannot attack to tech, then they win as well. There is a big thread about this in the strategy forum at the moment. To summarise: since pvz starts at 2 base vs 3 base, if the protoss goes for a fast third then the zerg can be maxed on +1 speed roaches by the 12 minute mark. It isnt about being scared of protoss tech units as lategame zerg (broodlord tech) beats lategame protoss. It is that a fast third is punishable with just mass roaches. This is why you see protoss do 2 base attacks against zerg. And while CC/CC/Rax is stupid, terrans can and sometimes do open rax/CC/CC against protoss. The third CC has to stay in their main for a long time, but they can at least produce extra scvs and mules.
It's exactly the point I'm arguing. Zerg scouts Protoss going fast third nexus, Zerg thinks "I better kill him now while he is vulnerable or I'll be behind as soon as the eco kicks in."
Zerg scouts Terran go for a fast third, he can punish the terran, but it's just as good to put down two expands of his own and use the free time to drone and tech with 2 zerglings total army.
It's the same when Toss scouts a fast terran third. He can say "I 4gate his ass" or he can take a fast third nexus and will be ahead.
There is no greedy build that forces aggression from Toss/Zerg or they are behind. Counter-Expanding will always lead to the toss or Zerg ahead in the game.
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I'd like to vouch for Naruto's mass ghost lategame - tried it on ladder, worked extremely well against 900 pt-ish (S6) protoss masters players on NA. The P army just evaporates under the mass emp and ghost/rauder dps, and the storms are less effective cause they can't actually 1 shot any of my units. When I get more practice I'll start snipe spamming too.
Some ghost dps math:
assuming marine is always stimmed.
+3 marine vs +3 armor/0 shield zealot: 15.8 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot: 10.526 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot: 15.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot: 17.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 7.018 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 12.28 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 14 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 16 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
Now, consider this:
+3 marine vs 3 armor stalker /w guardian shield: 7.018 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor (as above)
+3 ghost vs 3 armor stalker /w guardian shield: 5.33dps to shield, 4.66 dps to armor
In a super-late game situation where you have a fuckton of resources banked, and massive infrastructure, a mass-ghost/rauder/etc army is VASTLY more powerful than a pure marine army.
The ghost has approximately 2x the post-stim health of a marine.
The ghost has no type.
The ghost can emp, cloak, and snipe.
The ghost has approximately triple the dps of a marine vs a guardian shielded zealot, and 0.6 less dps vs a stalker.
^^
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On March 23 2012 03:55 Fission wrote:
I'd like to vouch for Naruto's mass ghost lategame - tried it on ladder, worked extremely well against 900 pt-ish (S6) protoss masters players on NA. The P army just evaporates under the mass emp and ghost/rauder dps, and the storms are less effective cause they can't actually 1 shot any of my units. When I get more practice I'll start snipe spamming too.
Some ghost dps math:
assuming marine is always stimmed.
+3 marine vs +3 armor/0 shield zealot: 15.8 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot: 10.526 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot: 15.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot: 17.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 7.018 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 12.28 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 14 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 16 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
Did you at least assume equal supply? Because it's only fair to compare at least two marines with a ghost. Suddenly the marine beats the ghost in dps when there is no guardian shield.
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I have considered switching races lately, pretty sure most T pros have as well. Z/P that are very good can force you into going lategame and Terran is on a timer basically.
Imo, one of the huge problems with Terran lategame is vikings vs broods/collosus/high templar aka the "hard counter" system that blizzard implemented for SC2 to make it easier than brood war is finally hugely impacting the game.
In SC1, can you imagine the scenario lategame TvP, where you have lots of factories, and your opponent is doing a carrier tech. You build goliaths...you have a chance if your micro is good against the carriers, and after the battle, all of the goliaths are not 100% utterly useless.
Now imagine the SC2 scenario. You build 12-15 vikings to counter 4-6 collosus. After the battle, all of your vikings become 100% useless in lategame because protoss warps in 20 chargelots + archons.
In SC1, imagine TvZ lategame your opponent is getting some guardians or making mutas (for some reason) and you are going mech. Golitaths are very useful on the ground vs the air units, AND they are very useful on the ground vs ground units.
Now the SC2 scenario. You build the vikings required to take out broodlords/corruptors. Your opponent can lockdown all your vikings with fungal, finish with corruptors and continue mass broodlord / corruptor production (unlike you could with guardians). Or your opponent can lose their entire air army, and remax on pure ling/ultra/infestor and your remaining 12-13 vikings are utterly trash on the ground (an even worse case scenario in the current metagame is your opponent is on pure mass air and you have to build oftentimes upwards of 15-20 vikings and then they tech switch). After they die, your opponent can simply tech into ground, and then prepare a switch back into air meaning Terran has to have another minute-minute and a half or so worth of viking production again to survive.
That is the huge problem with TvP/TvZ lategame. Vikings are dead supply and the other two races have easy ways to take advantage of this fact by forcing viking production and then just making ground units.
Terran's 200/200 army can basically go from 200/200 to 0/200 almost immediately due to the hard counter system in late game. If there is not enough vikings to stop broodlord/corruptor/infestor, Terran's army supply goes massively down immediately because of the broodlords.
Lategame TvP if the Terran has no vikings and the Protoss has collosus, Terran cannot fight until he waits for vikings, and then if Protoss has templar, Terran has to also wait for ghosts, and then after the big 200/200 fight all of the EMP's are expended, all of the vikings may remain, but Protoss will just warp-in chargelots forcing vikings to land and die and repeat the cycle as protoss gets more collosus again while chargelots become insane against everything Terran has.
I honestly see a lot of this lategame Terran struggle due to the fact we do not have a strong AA unit like the goliath in starcraft 2. The viking sucks on the ground, and it gets Terran into situations where we have invested so much gas/minerals into dead supply that lategame becomes difficult.
Also, now that the game is more figured out, Z/P realized they never need to attack Terran because of these late game strengths of tech switches and such...though they still have more all-ins than Terran's nowadays because most of Terran's all-ins were nerfed, while most warpgate or other P all-ins were left alone.
Hopefully HOTS will help Terran out in lategame...against Protoss right now it's very difficult, and after the ghost nerf TvZ lategame has become a nightmare.
I am most likely gonna stick with Terran, obviously lots of other will too, but i'm considering learning ZvP or PvP for tournaments for obvious reasons right now.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Why you gotta post that replay blehhhhhhh 
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must be nice
to be able to do that
amirite Fission ??
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Im sorry, but what is about that replay? Your terran opponent had half of your's APM, his first succesfull drop happened at 18(!) minute of game when he killed your 4th nexus and before that he sacced like erm, 40 (?) suplly of bio for killing a nexus (just nexus, nothing more). His medevacs very on full energy (couse he was that passive) and he was behind on bases. So yes, i actually guess this is working that when terran plays quite bad (in this case careless and way too passive) he lose.
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Yeah that was pretty fucking awful of me in that game. No doubt.
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On March 23 2012 04:01 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 03:55 Fission wrote:
I'd like to vouch for Naruto's mass ghost lategame - tried it on ladder, worked extremely well against 900 pt-ish (S6) protoss masters players on NA. The P army just evaporates under the mass emp and ghost/rauder dps, and the storms are less effective cause they can't actually 1 shot any of my units. When I get more practice I'll start snipe spamming too.
Some ghost dps math:
assuming marine is always stimmed.
+3 marine vs +3 armor/0 shield zealot: 15.8 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot: 10.526 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot: 15.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot: 17.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 7.018 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 12.28 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 14 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 16 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor Did you at least assume equal supply? Because it's only fair to compare at least two marines with a ghost. Suddenly the marine beats the ghost in dps when there is no guardian shield.
No you don't have to take this into account. Ressources , as I mentioned multiple times are no problem for Terran. You could even go battlecruisers but they are not valid because they take too long to build, are countered by feedback and pure gateway and its just not possible to mass them against a competent Protoss.
Its all good that you do the math behind 2 marines vs 1 ghost, yet its useless. You can easily afford those mass ghosts and if you want to play a game and be picky, I can mention that all your marines are gone by 1 swipe from the colossi or a storm , while the ghosts are not. Try it out before you bash it to death.
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EPT
