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On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. 
I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players.
I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans.
Terran is awesome.
:D
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On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 17:34 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 17:21 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 14:40 dignitas.merz wrote:
I feel I should shed som light on at least my own opinion here. I do whine a lot recently, guilty as charged. I did not use to whine, for a very long time, I kept imbalance issues out of it for the most part. Why I'm whining at this day is because I look around and I see the only terrans being successful are koreans. I look at the koreans play and try to figure out why they still maintain such a high success with this race, and the conclusions I draw is that they're really just abusing the strong terran early game. I do very much so believe Protoss is stronger than Terran in the lategame, Zerg is too since the ghost nerf. However I'll be the first one to admit right here that the early game is imbalanced in favour of Terrans. Terran has a variety of 1 base openings that are sick strong, hard to identify, and all the units (hellions, marauders, marines) benefit a great deal from good control, which can make them ridiculously cost efficient.
People will argue "Then just resort to using the strenghts of your race" or "If Terran is so strong early but weak late, why do you even play for the lategame?" It's simple. All races should be equally capable in each stage of the game, they should have racial strenghts and weaknesses of course, but having a race who CLEARLY excells in the early game and slowly crumbles in the lategame is problematic for many reasons. Terrans early game strenght comes much from our ability to wall off early, which denies the opponent important intel early on. It also comes from us having a ranged tier 1 unit (the marine) so denying scouting probes/drones are a lot easier compared to zealots or zerglings . It's also due to our racial mechanic which is the mule, basically giving us a sick income boost of minerals on which we can spend towards powerful units early game such as hellions or marines. It also allows us to incorporate workers into our all-ins because mules compensate for the mining time lost if we bring scvs.
Now why this is problematic is because if one race clearly excells at the early game, the other races main objective will always be to just survive and take it til the lategame where they are stronger, while our objective is kill them as soon as possible. This basically results in P and Z tailoring their builds towards all-in play blindly, they even play overly safe sometimes (i.e. protoss going 3 gate before expand just because they scouted gas). This creates some really random scenarios at times which I don't think belongs in game where skill should excell above all else.
just a small question, because you are somewhat implying TvZ to be similar: Isn't it a concious decision in TvZ to not go for a good lategame, but instead play for the early wins? Mech is viable in this matchup and does have a very strong lategame, that can deal pretty well with everything a zerg can throw at you at this time, yet I somehow get the feeling that Terrans don't want to change style, because their winrates are still >50% with bioplay, because it still gets a ton of early-midwins, while not getting crushed in the lategame a lot of times. (And I'm not standing alone with this opinion. Various progamers have said things along those lines as well) I do believe that this is somewhat the best (designwise) it can get for a race that is basically 2races (techpaths) combined in one and the question should not be "how does blizzard balance the current game out so that bio works better in the lategame vs Protoss/Zerg", but rather it should be "blizzard should ensure that Mech becomes viable vs Protoss and maybe even more viable vs Zerg - and possibly even nerf down bios early game a little more vs Zerg" Imo, Mech can't ever work in WoL on most maps because of how immobile it is, especially against Mutas Mech is so bad, you need to put up a bajillion turrets everywhere because if the Zerg ever find a weak spot somewhere he can kill of your entire main until your army eventually gets there. And mech won't ever work against protoss either, unless they remove blink, charge, immortals, speed prisms, nexus recall from the game. And then you also have the problem of hard counters. Zerg goes mass roach, you mass tanks, then he switches into mutas, you mass thors, then back to roach, then goes broordlords and even if you instantely scout it, it takes you ages to mass up the counter to the specific unit. You also can't harrass zerg at all, if he just puts up spine crawlers at his expo. And by the way, if you count Mech and Bio as 2 in 1, you could very well count infestor and muta as 2 in 1 and chargelot archon and robo as 2 in 1. Mech would have to be buffed to no end to become viable in SC2, I would of course be ok with bio getting nerfed, but only if you massively buff every single mech unit and give us something to overcome the immobility of the mech army. Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL. To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice. Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless.
for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it.
Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is)
Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out.
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On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D
Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out.
On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 17:34 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 17:21 Big J wrote:
[quote]
just a small question, because you are somewhat implying TvZ to be similar:
Isn't it a concious decision in TvZ to not go for a good lategame, but instead play for the early wins? Mech is viable in this matchup and does have a very strong lategame, that can deal pretty well with everything a zerg can throw at you at this time, yet I somehow get the feeling that Terrans don't want to change style, because their winrates are still >50% with bioplay, because it still gets a ton of early-midwins, while not getting crushed in the lategame a lot of times.
(And I'm not standing alone with this opinion. Various progamers have said things along those lines as well)
I do believe that this is somewhat the best (designwise) it can get for a race that is basically 2races (techpaths) combined in one and the question should not be "how does blizzard balance the current game out so that bio works better in the lategame vs Protoss/Zerg", but rather it should be "blizzard should ensure that Mech becomes viable vs Protoss and maybe even more viable vs Zerg - and possibly even nerf down bios early game a little more vs Zerg" Imo, Mech can't ever work in WoL on most maps because of how immobile it is, especially against Mutas Mech is so bad, you need to put up a bajillion turrets everywhere because if the Zerg ever find a weak spot somewhere he can kill of your entire main until your army eventually gets there. And mech won't ever work against protoss either, unless they remove blink, charge, immortals, speed prisms, nexus recall from the game. And then you also have the problem of hard counters. Zerg goes mass roach, you mass tanks, then he switches into mutas, you mass thors, then back to roach, then goes broordlords and even if you instantely scout it, it takes you ages to mass up the counter to the specific unit. You also can't harrass zerg at all, if he just puts up spine crawlers at his expo. And by the way, if you count Mech and Bio as 2 in 1, you could very well count infestor and muta as 2 in 1 and chargelot archon and robo as 2 in 1. Mech would have to be buffed to no end to become viable in SC2, I would of course be ok with bio getting nerfed, but only if you massively buff every single mech unit and give us something to overcome the immobility of the mech army. Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL. To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice. Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out.
And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs.
Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play.
And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose.
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On March 22 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 17:34 ChaosTerran wrote:
[quote]
Imo, Mech can't ever work in WoL on most maps because of how immobile it is, especially against Mutas Mech is so bad, you need to put up a bajillion turrets everywhere because if the Zerg ever find a weak spot somewhere he can kill of your entire main until your army eventually gets there. And mech won't ever work against protoss either, unless they remove
blink, charge, immortals, speed prisms, nexus recall from the game. And then you also have the problem of hard counters. Zerg goes mass roach, you mass tanks, then he switches into mutas, you mass thors, then back to roach, then goes broordlords and even if you instantely scout it, it takes you ages to mass up the counter to the specific unit. You also can't harrass zerg at all, if he just puts up spine crawlers at his expo.
And by the way, if you count Mech and Bio as 2 in 1, you could very well count infestor and muta as 2 in 1 and chargelot archon and robo as 2 in 1. Mech would have to be buffed to no end to become viable in SC2, I would of course be ok with bio getting nerfed, but only if you massively buff every single mech unit and give us something to overcome the immobility of the mech army.
Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL. To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice. Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out. And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs. Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play. And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose.
I guess it's not the point of this thread to discuss the details of why Mech vs Protoss is not viable (especially as we agree on that), but just to put it like I think it is:
-) I think the mobile strategies are exactly what makes Mech bad on high level in this matchup, but somewhat viable on lower level (people are not likely to have the multitasking to outplay you with harass); on highlevel you simply can't be prepared for everything and you can't know everything he is doing exactly, so you often have to overprepare against blinks, airswitches, Prisms, allins, and then you get rolled because your opponent just maxed out and as I said: Mech does not crush Protoss armies the way it would have to, to justify all the extra preparedness and volatilities it has.
-) Mass Air builds seem somewhat dealable if you scout them and incorporate Terran air (Vikings, Ravens AND Battlecruiser); comment by Lyyna from the "How to Mech thread in TvP":
On March 21 2012 22:36 Lyyna wrote:
Basically,the best way to counter mass air is
-Good amount of ghosts with cloak (8-10)
-Mass BC (yamato is good,and they tank a huge amount of damage
-Mass Raven. Seriously, try HSM versus carriers . This is as effective as vs Broodlords !
-Few vikings and thors. Both get demolished by carriers and VR,so vikings are just here to add some dps, and thors to add some AOE/Tanking.
Of course it questions "Mech" play, because Terran air =/= Mech, but it doesn't seem undealable if you open Mech and scout an air response.
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On March 22 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out. Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 17:34 ChaosTerran wrote:
[quote]
Imo, Mech can't ever work in WoL on most maps because of how immobile it is, especially against Mutas Mech is so bad, you need to put up a bajillion turrets everywhere because if the Zerg ever find a weak spot somewhere he can kill of your entire main until your army eventually gets there. And mech won't ever work against protoss either, unless they remove
blink, charge, immortals, speed prisms, nexus recall from the game. And then you also have the problem of hard counters. Zerg goes mass roach, you mass tanks, then he switches into mutas, you mass thors, then back to roach, then goes broordlords and even if you instantely scout it, it takes you ages to mass up the counter to the specific unit. You also can't harrass zerg at all, if he just puts up spine crawlers at his expo.
And by the way, if you count Mech and Bio as 2 in 1, you could very well count infestor and muta as 2 in 1 and chargelot archon and robo as 2 in 1. Mech would have to be buffed to no end to become viable in SC2, I would of course be ok with bio getting nerfed, but only if you massively buff every single mech unit and give us something to overcome the immobility of the mech army.
Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL. To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice. Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out. And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs. Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play. And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose.
Whoa, whoa whoa... Protoss will put up with a lot of sillyness in this thread, but saying phoenix/carrier being viable against anything is going to far. That is like me telling terrans that Raven, Banshee is a good mix us units to counter anything. If you see a protoss going this route, you have about 9 years game time to get out the appropriate counter.
Seriously, I am not going to argue that mech is totally viable, but phoenix/carrier is not good either.
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On March 22 2012 19:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 19:14 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:09 ZenithM wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 Zythius wrote:On March 22 2012 18:55 ZenithM wrote:
Don't throw in Goody's name as a proof of how a certain strategy doesn't work. For a long time, Goody was for me a proof that Terran was a joke race lol. He is the guy with 80 APM (like your so-called 80 APM top Protoss), and who supply blocks himself at 21 supply while doing a 1rax fe (cf liquipedia: Cordially nicknamed the "Supply Block Terran" by MC during a game vs ReaL). Honestly, he's cool and likes siege tanks and shit, but him disappearing as a progamer is not the worst thing, if anything it means that the game progresses.
Just fyi, I know that mech isn't viable, but I base myself on MVP's comments, not Goody's playstyle :D
In the end, Terran was probably too much awesomeness for Goody to handle. Don't tell us about random errors that Goody made and think that it has any relevance to Terran balance issues. I...didn't say that. Besides I said "for a long time", not currently. Now Terran is the race I like to watch and play the most, and MKP and MMA are my favorite players. I watch a lot of Terran play so I don't think including Goody in the good Terrans does any honor to the race. Call it bashing or something, but really it's just me judging a progamer's skills compared to other Terrans. Terran is awesome. :D Yeah, goody isn't a top terran. But I think the main reason why he was so succesful for such a long time was that people didn't know how to beat his style and how to abuse it, due to a lack of practise against it. I remember a TvP between hasuobs and goody on metalopolis where goody split the map and all hasu had to do was to tech to phoenix carrier since that is 100% unstoppable with mech (vikings and thors just die), but hasu didn't really know that, so he lost. But phoenix carrier transition absolutely destroys mech and more and more people started to figure out how to beat goody so now he kind of disappeared as one of the top players. Which is a good thing, he isn't a top tier player and shouldn't be. But his success was more down to his style not being figured out. On March 22 2012 19:13 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 19:03 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 19:01 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:56 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 22 2012 18:49 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:46 Big J wrote:On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 22 2012 18:03 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Mech is being played against Zerg from the lowest to the highest level. At the highest level I think I have seen less mass mutaplay vs Mech, than Mech vs Protoss in the last months. That's all I'm gonna say about viability of Mechplay vs Zerg and mutaliskplay vs Mech in WoL.
To TvP: There are a ton of threads on TL about Mech vP (from players up to high masters), Mech gets thrown in as kind of cheese by progamers sometimes... I don't think the game needs a lot of changes for it to become playable, but that's all just speculations (just like your counterposition is just a speculation). Pretty much everything you have mentioned has already been figuered, how you can deal with it seperatly, it rather seems like the amount of possibilities combined with toplevel multitasking makes Mech such a tough choice.
Terran is designed with 2seperate groundtechpaths; production, upgrades, costdistribution among units, techlevels inside of the paths, roledistribution inside the paths, broodwar gamplay background... everything screams that. But that's a bad thing more than anything. And no, blink stalkers, speed prism drops, chargelots, immortals, nexus recall hasn't been figured out yet. You can't counter that with mech at all. There is no unit that you can simply send back to deal with any of this. There are threads about Mech, but it doesn't mean it's viable, because it simply isn't. I'm sure we can get Jinro to comment on this. But in all honesty I'm getting tired of you specifically. You certainly haven't even tried Mech in TvP, so for the love of god, stop posting here. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And mutas are extremely viable against Mech, as a tech switch. You cannot mass pure muta obviously, but you tech switch long enough to out produce the terran on every end and then kill move him with broodlords, that is arguably the best way to beat mech in zvt. Yeah, it's a strong way to play vs Mech, but nothing that can't be beaten, just like dropping all over the place/mixing in banshees and then pushing or fake pushing is a strong way to play vs Infestors. It's basically called "outplaying" your opponent, meaning you lean onto the weaknesses of his composition and try to force mistakes out of him. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
And no, mech isn't viable in tvp, the only way it is viable is if you open up cloak banshee and hellion drop and kill 20 probes and are infinitely far ahead (every single game in the day9 daily about mech was like that) in which case it doesn't matter what you follow it up with ur gonna win either way. Show me a game where both players are evenly matched in the midgame, the protoss does blink stalkers backstabs, nexus recalls, speed prism harrass and the terran actually wins. because so far, every replay of mech I have seen the terran win was either when the terran was 30 workers ahead after the early game, or the protoss didn't do anything and made the wrong units. That's why I keep on saying that it isn't viable, but that doesn't mean that it could not become viable through some buffs. Stop missreading and missinterpreting what I'm writing. Your blindly ranting against things that I haven't said or implied. On March 22 2012 18:10 ChaosTerran wrote:
edit: And before you say anything else, the most experienced mech player in TvP on this planet, goody himself, said that Mech isn't viable in TvP and he isn't meching in tvp for quite a while now. so what are we even having this discussion for? You are absolutely deluded, every single one of your posts is mind-boggling, really. Yes and this is completly wrong information. Goody said that he thinks the only way to play Mech in TvP is by Planetary Fortress pushing in superlong games and that he thinks bio is stronger. He did not say that it is not viable. And if you actually watch his stream, you will see that he still plays Mechbuilds against Protoss. (just like he has been mixing in bio builds vs Zerg as well) People keep on talking about Goody, giving him shit for bad mechanics and being slow etc, quoting him on every Mech comment in TvP, but most of them have never actually watched his stream. It's really really annoying. No, you are wrong. Goody isn't even playing Terran vP anymore, because he thinks Mech is bad and he sucks with bio. Goody is actually playing Protoss vs. Protoss now. I think both you and BigJ need to take a quick break and reread each other's posts with a bit more charity. To me you guys seem closer in mind than your hostility makes one believe. I'll use the good will of this post to ask for a favour, anyone know of a good TvZ, TvP mech build I could mess around with to test it in my own scrub games? that's why I'm absolutly not attacking him personally or his post. I just try to defend what I'm saying. That's the most recent "big Mech vs Protoss", thread, but the (high masters) guy that posted the most in it (with lots of replays), said he would make a guide on it in the next days, so I'd watch out for it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311341Mech vZ, I think this one shows great details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972 But how should I have a serious discussion with you when you just ignore facts. We both know that goody isn't playing TvP anymore, so why pretend that he is and that his PvP is just a wild adventure? That's just speculation and pointless. for all I know, you are the one that keeps on saying Mech vZ is not viable, when there are people like Thorzain, MVP, DeMuslim, Nada, Strelok which (I know off and) you can watch time and time again playing it. Well, then I guess you are right on the details that Goody doesn't even play TvP anymore. That doesn't make it right that he said Mech is unviable in TvP. (though I think it is) Yet did I never say it was viable, I said it needs a few buffs for vP, but a lot of things have already been figured out. And I think that even if you buff Mech vs. P it still won't work because you can't overcome the immobility problems. The only way I see mech work is if the warhound in HoTs actually gives terran this "core" unit that you can send back to defend back stabs. Also, the reason some players have some success with mech is because protoss players lack practise against it and are generally unexperienced, hence why nobody ever blink stalkers backstabs warp prism drops or nexus recalls against mech, these strategies are unstoppable with the mech units we have in WoL and no buff in the world could change that, only the addition of a new unit in Hots will change that, and that's where the warhound comes into play. And then there also is the problem that phoenix carrier combo is unstoppable with mech, so if you split map and the protoss techs to phoenix carrier, you auto-lose. Whoa, whoa whoa... Protoss will put up with a lot of sillyness in this thread, but saying phoenix/carrier being viable against anything is going to far. That is like me telling terrans that Raven, Banshee is a good mix us units to counter anything. If you see a protoss going this route, you have about 9 years game time to get out the appropriate counter. Seriously, I am not going to argue that mech is totally viable, but phoenix/carrier is not good either.
It's been so long since I've seen mech TvP that idk if this is relevant anymore. But I remember a long time ago when people still messed with mech TvP, the carrier/HT combo was pretty strong against standard mech. Carriers are pretty laughable though, especially vs vikings. Honestly, mass carrier may be a strategy akin to the 30 ghost TvP strategy. Really good in actuality but insanely difficult to get to. Then again, carriers are so sad that I doubt that.
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Anyone can tell the current state of TvP is ridiculous. You can outplay your opponent completely, secure massive advantages but if at any point in the game, pretty much no matter how far behind he is, he hits one storm then the game is even or at his advantage. As soon as protoss has his tech in place, you're only going to thin out the number of chargelots during engagements. If patch 1.5 doesn't bring remarkable changes then I'll just go back to dota2. I have played 90 games this season, I've had 12 TvTs. It's just depressing playing a race that doesn't work past the midgame. I'm sure you can point to this or that terran winning a lategame TvX, but are there any terrans that consistently do well in the lategame? No, 70 % of the time you're going to lose to inferior players if they succesfully stall your pushes until we're both on tier3 (the nonexistant tier for terran.)
User was warned for this post
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Khr91.png)
This was lolzy :D
There are no terrans?
This may be too much evidence
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The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
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This is what Naruto is talking about: Naruto vs Netolip (I hope no one posted it yet)
It looks pretty viable to me, although I didn't try it.
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On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
+1
The roles in BW, was so different. I just hope they make some changes in HOTS that makes terran much more viable in the lategame. Not like you need to trade 50 % more efficently tahan your opponent who can just throw shit at you and reinforce in seconds. And its far more harder to keep mapcontrol against both races. You just need to be SO much more active than your macroing 2-3 base or more opponent usually.
Only MU which i enjoy watching and sometimes playing the most is the TvT, than it can swing in any direction in terms of engagements. Others are just so one dimensional.
BRING THE VULTURES BACK!
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They all went to Korea and got to GSL 
*ahem* It's the dark ages of Terran atm. Nerf after nerf after nerf after nerf after nerf.
Plus, lategame TvP and TvZ isn't easy.
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I think the plan is for Blizzard to mess up WOL so we will have to spend money to buy HOTS in hope for any fixes on skill ceilings.
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I once was a little unhappy playing Terran because "everybody" played Terran.
Now that I am a minority, I am very happy again.
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On March 23 2012 01:34 Cyclone999 wrote:
I think the plan is for Blizzard to mess up WOL so we will have to spend money to buy HOTS in hope for any fixes on skill ceilings.
Why the **** would I buy a expansion which adds boring no micro units into both races. I also hate the uber-thor idea.
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On March 22 2012 03:43 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 03:06 Cyclone999 wrote:I still find it funny how some Protoss players are trying to defend their race as if they needed to do some godly micro to win an engagement. Honestly, Protoss, just please, admit that your armies are so much easier to control than Terran armies (this is about the actual engagement, not the state of macro/expansion management/whatever). Moving zealots in front of your army does not count as "micro". Early on, sure, we have it a lot easier, but it's hard to take advantage of the game early-on when 6 sentries can hold your ramp infinitely. For my TvPs, it's usually me spending 100 extra APM in double drops to force the Protoss to spend 20 more APM to defend it with warp-ins, or me winning three (3!) deathball engagements, but can never take advantage of that because a round of chargelots is warped in and holds off what's left of my army, where when I lose a battle I lose the game because one round of zealot warpins instantly gives them an extra 1,500 HP (10 zealots) in which my reinforcements can't deal with fast enough for you to either kill me OR double expand/whatever all of these whiny terrans making the exact same rank as protoss, or even better With all due respect, I did do this, with my best matchup being PvT. I got up to high diamond with Protoss, then switched to Terran (still high diamond now) because (1) PvP was horrible and (2) I felt guilty winning PvTs (honest, that's what I thought back then). I switched to Terran because I wanted to try my hand at splitting banelings, dodging storms, doing double drops, just like the pro players (this was right before Sad Zealots). I couldn't find a Protoss player that demonstrated the same amount of skill as a Terran player back then, in multitasking and in army control. With this I made my decision to switch to Terran because I felt, at least back then, it would be cooler to feel good when I win due to superior multitasking. When I played Protoss you basically do the same things every matchup (defend, do some "early map presence" and show off your "amazing forcefields", get third base, get deathball, win/lose) and that was just boring. I think you're doing drops wrong. First off, with good positioning (like behind the mineral line), 8 marines/ 6 marines and a marauder can take out a good handful of zealots-- I personally am always surprised at how long Terran drops take to get cleaned up sometimes because of medivac support. Second off, your priority should be distracting the Protoss from the drop, not the other way around. What I do from the T side is have my medivac set to drop behind the mineral line. When its almost there, I use my army and engage his lightly, then we dance our armies together to distract him while my drop does damage. My philosophy is basically the same playing as P, though I feel getting the warp prism in place, in position, warping in and then setting my units to attack workers is more APM intensive.
See, a good protoss will usually have pylon scatter in his base and will usually have observer in good spot that will detect drops coming and they should have good map awareness before the drop even reach your base. It similar to TvZ drops, if you fly by an overlord, then you better drop your unit right there and return home asap which is what all pro does if they pay attention to the drop ship. If you are just praying that he doesnt pay attention and your drop doing alot of damage to win then you are just playing with poor player.
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On March 22 2012 22:14 Operations wrote:This is what Naruto is talking about: Naruto vs Netolip (I hope no one posted it yet) It looks pretty viable to me, although I didn't try it.
And that was actually very badly played by me. I didn't seperate ghosts from my other bio so I suffered a lot of AoE, but yes, thats the idea.
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On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This.
Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc..
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On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc..
Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it.
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On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it.
Vs p or z there are no other viable styles. thats the problem.
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EPT
