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On March 23 2012 04:32 Narw wrote:
Im sorry, but what is about that replay? Your terran opponent had half of your's APM, his first succesfull drop happened at 18(!) minute of game when he killed your 4th nexus and before that he sacced like erm, 40 (?) suplly of bio for killing a nexus (just nexus, nothing more). His medevacs very on full energy (couse he was that passive) and he was behind on bases. So yes, i actually guess this is working that when terran plays quite bad (in this case careless and way too passive) he lose.
According to TLers apm means nothing.
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On March 23 2012 03:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 22:08 Hossinaut wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Khr91.png) This was lolzy :D There are no terrans? This may be too much evidence  You're joking right? Yesterday morning I was looking for a stream and there were 0 Protoss and about 5 Terrans (most of which were Korean). What does that mean to you? Right now there's Tarson and Kas and Naruto and merz for Terran, and only... desrow for Protoss -____- Silliest "evidence" ever. In fact, there are almost always fewer Protosses than Terrans and Zergs who stream. But I would never say that implies imbalance.
12,000 posts and you can't see that it's clearly a joke? Come on man..
And I have to agree with everything Avilo said. Terran is forced to make a wide array of units to deal with different tech paths P/Z can throw at them. It can be insanely hard for Terrans to scout correctly and many rely on a lucky scan or drop for that information. Every unit is so specialized that if you over make one, under make another, it will almost always cost you dearly. We've all seen it, the Pro Terran who builds vikings blindly b/c if you don't you'll 100% lose to any collosus play and then promptly get rolled by gateway/immortal or something along those lines. I wish SC2 rewarded micro and mechanics more over "decision making".
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On March 23 2012 04:53 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 04:01 Thrombozyt wrote:On March 23 2012 03:55 Fission wrote:
I'd like to vouch for Naruto's mass ghost lategame - tried it on ladder, worked extremely well against 900 pt-ish (S6) protoss masters players on NA. The P army just evaporates under the mass emp and ghost/rauder dps, and the storms are less effective cause they can't actually 1 shot any of my units. When I get more practice I'll start snipe spamming too.
Some ghost dps math:
assuming marine is always stimmed.
+3 marine vs +3 armor/0 shield zealot: 15.8 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot: 10.526 dps to shield, 8.77 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot: 15.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot: 17.33 dps to shield, 14.66 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 7.018 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 marine vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 12.28 dps to shield, 5.26 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/3 zealot /w guardian shield: 14 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor
+3 ghost vs 3/0 zealot /w guardian shield: 16 dps to shield, 13.33 dps to armor Did you at least assume equal supply? Because it's only fair to compare at least two marines with a ghost. Suddenly the marine beats the ghost in dps when there is no guardian shield. No you don't have to take this into account. Ressources , as I mentioned multiple times are no problem for Terran. You could even go battlecruisers but they are not valid because they take too long to build, are countered by feedback and pure gateway and its just not possible to mass them against a competent Protoss. Its all good that you do the math behind 2 marines vs 1 ghost, yet its useless. You can easily afford those mass ghosts and if you want to play a game and be picky, I can mention that all your marines are gone by 1 swipe from the colossi or a storm , while the ghosts are not. Try it out before you bash it to death.
ghosts only have 100 hp, which aren't much at all. if all marines are gone by one swipe, then ghosts can probably take two and ghosts can't stim, meaning you can't kite with them. i don't think mass ghost is a bad idea, but i hope they cost more gas and less mineral. like 100/150
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On March 23 2012 03:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 22:08 Hossinaut wrote:This was lolzy :D There are no terrans? This may be too much evidence You're joking right? Yesterday morning I was looking for a stream and there were 0 Protoss and about 5 Terrans (most of which were Korean). What does that mean to you? Right now there's Tarson and Kas and Naruto and merz for Terran, and only... desrow for Protoss -____- Silliest "evidence" ever. In fact, there are almost always fewer Protosses than Terrans and Zergs who stream. But I would never say that implies imbalance.
It was supposed to be a joke dear sir :D
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On March 23 2012 04:01 avilo wrote:I have considered switching races lately, pretty sure most T pros have as well. Z/P that are very good can force you into going lategame and Terran is on a timer basically. Imo, one of the huge problems with Terran lategame is vikings vs broods/collosus/high templar aka the "hard counter" system that blizzard implemented for SC2 to make it easier than brood war is finally hugely impacting the game. In SC1, can you imagine the scenario lategame TvP, where you have lots of factories, and your opponent is doing a carrier tech. You build goliaths...you have a chance if your micro is good against the carriers, and after the battle, all of the goliaths are not 100% utterly useless. Now imagine the SC2 scenario. You build 12-15 vikings to counter 4-6 collosus. After the battle, all of your vikings become 100% useless in lategame because protoss warps in 20 chargelots + archons. In SC1, imagine TvZ lategame your opponent is getting some guardians or making mutas (for some reason) and you are going mech. Golitaths are very useful on the ground vs the air units, AND they are very useful on the ground vs ground units. Now the SC2 scenario. You build the vikings required to take out broodlords/corruptors. Your opponent can lockdown all your vikings with fungal, finish with corruptors and continue mass broodlord / corruptor production (unlike you could with guardians). Or your opponent can lose their entire air army, and remax on pure ling/ultra/infestor and your remaining 12-13 vikings are utterly trash on the ground (an even worse case scenario in the current metagame is your opponent is on pure mass air and you have to build oftentimes upwards of 15-20 vikings and then they tech switch). After they die, your opponent can simply tech into ground, and then prepare a switch back into air meaning Terran has to have another minute-minute and a half or so worth of viking production again to survive. That is the huge problem with TvP/TvZ lategame. Vikings are dead supply and the other two races have easy ways to take advantage of this fact by forcing viking production and then just making ground units. Terran's 200/200 army can basically go from 200/200 to 0/200 almost immediately due to the hard counter system in late game. If there is not enough vikings to stop broodlord/corruptor/infestor, Terran's army supply goes massively down immediately because of the broodlords. Lategame TvP if the Terran has no vikings and the Protoss has collosus, Terran cannot fight until he waits for vikings, and then if Protoss has templar, Terran has to also wait for ghosts, and then after the big 200/200 fight all of the EMP's are expended, all of the vikings may remain, but Protoss will just warp-in chargelots forcing vikings to land and die and repeat the cycle as protoss gets more collosus again while chargelots become insane against everything Terran has. I honestly see a lot of this lategame Terran struggle due to the fact we do not have a strong AA unit like the goliath in starcraft 2. The viking sucks on the ground, and it gets Terran into situations where we have invested so much gas/minerals into dead supply that lategame becomes difficult. Also, now that the game is more figured out, Z/P realized they never need to attack Terran because of these late game strengths of tech switches and such...though they still have more all-ins than Terran's nowadays because most of Terran's all-ins were nerfed, while most warpgate or other P all-ins were left alone. Hopefully HOTS will help Terran out in lategame...against Protoss right now it's very difficult, and after the ghost nerf TvZ lategame has become a nightmare. I am most likely gonna stick with Terran, obviously lots of other will too, but i'm considering learning ZvP or PvP for tournaments for obvious reasons right now. + Show Spoiler +
What if Vikings would recereive a buff to their ground mode so they are actually still useful on the ground after they cleaned up the broodlords/colosses? Would that help at all? Then you could even overmake some without instantly losing because of the lack of ground units. Of course that would require a huge buff to the stats when they are on the ground becuse they wont have the same upgrades like the bio. Maybe even consider turning them into bio units when on the ground so they get good upgrades while beeing slightly worse than marine/marodeurs of course. Am I crazy or could that work?
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lol avilo tries to prove something by offracing and beating a way worse player ... I fully support merz his opinion. He is 100% right in my oponion.
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On March 23 2012 05:52 Kaitokid wrote:
lol avilo tries to prove something by offracing and beating a way worse player ... I fully support merz his opinion. He is 100% right in my oponion.
I think he was primarily trying to prove something with the numerous arguments he provided.
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On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:
Pick another race?
Ladies and gentleman, after 121 pages we finally have a winner!
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On March 22 2012 04:26 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2012 02:30 VTPerfect wrote:On March 21 2012 19:23 Jono7272 wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Says the protoss player The majority of people here realise that terran is capable of winning against protoss, that's not the point of this thread. The point is more that you need to be top Korean Terran, at lower levels the MU is more difficult for the terran. But even then, protoss are doing better and better against T, even in Korea. What's your best MU out of interest? :p Edit: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2236_Perfect According to TLPD its PvT; shocking. I won't deny I have sick PvT, but I have sick TvP as well because I understand the Match up very well. It's true that Terran units are more cost efficient and Protoss units are more supply efficient, naturally Protoss wants survive to Max out without being too far behind of the early advantages Terran has in cost efficiency to steam roll the terran with extreme high tech army. What Terran needs to compete in the super late game is the game knowledge to know when to sack SCV's (preferably in a 180 supply engagement) and replace them with supply less mules, this gives Terran 30-40 more supply in an engagement to help close the supply efficiency. Secondly Terrans need to use Planetary fortresses more liberally in the late game to control areas of the map, as well as have a very healthy production capability. It's not uncommon for me to have 25 gateways in the Late Late game, so Terrans Need to Over Rax as well behind Planetaries. Also, Snipe/Emp still ourtanges Psi storm pretty healthilly so if alot of storms land on your army its because you need to learn how to EMP better. Most of the Terrans struggling against Protoss and even the Progamer ones are usually missing skillsets required in the MU, IE good unit control. When i switched to Sc2 from Wc3 I had to learn how to multitask several groups at the same time, always have my eye on the minimap and control economies more and more efficiently. Since the game isn't "broken" yet this thread shouldn't exist and should be trying to discover the best way to learn the skills necessary to play the TvP match up. Im amazed that protoss players STILL dont understand this thread after 100+ pages. Can terran win while playing 100% perfect, YES ALWAYS! can protoss win if they play their 30%? YES and thats the PROBLEM in TvP and in lower leagues. Can you stop for a second and think why does EVERY protoss has pvt best MU and EVERY terran worst MU is tvp? I talked with KR terrans and I asked every EU terran and they ALL share same opinion on protoss and tvp, do you even watch GSL? Every terran allins protoss in bo1 and the one who go for 2+ base die like a joke. Now I know someone will come and say "tbh puma and polt got best MU tvp.." so what? you are still missing point in this thread, 2 out of 200 doesnt make it balanced. Here is an example of TvP and why people complain about it: Today I had this game where I went for 1-1-1, eventually I killed ton of probes but he defended attack, i got expo + stim + shields with 7-8 tanks and decided to go for kill (I was in big lead), I siege up at his natural he starts (a-)moving down with archon/ht/zealot off 2 base, he had 7 hts I believe. I stim start pre-emptive (spelling check) splitting marines in case of storms, drop PDD, pull banshees back to not get feedback on them and I focus fire with tanks on HT's, as he progresses to my army I clump all rines behind tanks so the zealots melt and then from high ground there was HT, he droped storm and killed all my marines, I eventually did win because I already started 3rd up, point of this "story" is that I played almost perfect and then that ONE HT click storm and I possibly lose game (if game was even to start with I would) and all he did was a-move down ramp and got one storm off. If in your mind he deserves to win because of that one storm before me where I had 350-400 apm during fight and he had 50-80 and comparing what I had to do to win fight and what he did to clear up my push then I dont know what to tell you. About your sick TvP im pretty sure you would get wrecked by any okayish protoss, but I would still like to see it. Since you said you have sick TvP you probably play T here and there, I play protoss in 4v4 sometimes and im pretty sure you would lose to me who isnt even main race toss.
I think there is alot of bias in your assessment. Firstly Terran Units may require more baby sitting on average than Protoss units, but Terran macro mechanics are extremely easy and forgiving. Terran starts out with Detection as soon as the OC is made This makes Build Order loss due to lack of detection highly unlikely. If a Protoss player does the Parting build and Terran went Cloak Banshee, game over. You think the Terran deserved to win cause he blindly decided to gamble cloak? Terran economies are very hard to damage, Protoss has 20 probes vs 50 scvs? game over so badly its not even funny. Protoss has 50 probes to 20 SCV? Terran actually might just win. We've all seen in it. Another advantage Terran has over Protoss is the opening build order, If I know without a shadow of a doubt you are going to no gas 1 rax CC, there is nothing I can do to punish you. If I no gas Nexus and u do anything but no gas 1 rax fe or 1/1/1 im dead game over.
I may be able to punish you if you went double gas factory off 1 rax CC but vs 1 rax CC 2 rax into double gas its safe vs everything. But there is no way ever for me to know which one you did because by the time an Obs or Hallu sees what you went the opening is closed where as your Scan mechanic as a good chance of identifying what tech tree im going which doubles as your hardly ever lose to cloak mechanic.
Also I think your openness to the insane potential of terran units is clouded by personal limitations. For example 40 Marines vs 20 Banelings, can you consistantly win this battle? At the current skill level of MvP he will control his marines well enough to lose around 15 Marines and win the engagement. MvP plays at an apm of around 250. The highest known example of "Perfection" in unit control is a bot that uses 15000 APM (Automoton) The automaton wins this engagment losing 0 Marines If the average effective APM of the average Human player in Sc2 was 250 APM, I think Terran on this current patch would be very dominate and recieve many nerfs. 250 APM is a very realistic achievable goal for Humans that are professional or have a good shot at becoming professional rts players. The funny thing about great RTS games is the skill level used effects dramatically the winrates. Sc2 with statistics and MMR matching has tried to alleviate this problem. But in the end the only thing that can be mostly balanced for is for the players that have the most to lose/gain and I agree it's annoying to have a 20-40% winrate in a match up because ur race has mechanics that are harder to use but stronger but its a natural product of Race Differentiation.
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On March 23 2012 02:55 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. I don't think you understood what he meant. Being the race that always has to make something happen or die in the late game is more mentally taxing then playing defensively (especially if you know the timings of the agressions), at least for the majority of average gamers. "Pick another race?" Isn't it already happening? lol. Isn't that the whole point of this thread (where did all terran go?)?
all i see is a bunch of whine. look at the GSL racial balance. if they can do it, so can you. and if you dont wanna put the effort into it, then dont be a pro gamer. if ur not a progamer, then u shouldnt really care much about balance. sc2 is like life, certain races need to work harder than others to achieve the same amount of success. u wanna give up just cus its unfair then go ahead.
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tvp is hilarious in its current state (at mb anything outside 3-4 korean terrans), its like I shouldnt lose to random mid master as a semi proffesional myself. In like tvz or tvt you dont really lose to bad players all that much and its mostly bc you play bad. But tvp you can lose to a scrub if you are unlucky and make 1 tiny mistake at any point in the game. Like 1/1/1 and some other all in can give you a good win rate I guess even in tournaments but really in a managment based game its completly pointless to paly vs protoss right now.
The only games if seen even the best korean terrans win in later game is when protoss forgets to build observers and get everything carpet emped but with some defensive canonns here and here and observer speed you just have no chance in this mu i feel.
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Buffing viking ground-mode would actually solve tons of problems with terran.
Let them have more hp, armor and slightly their buff damage, but only for the ground-mode.
^^ This would be a upgrade from lets say techlabbed starport. 200/200 so its only for the later stages of the game.
Atleast I dont see this breaking the game and now you have a unit that is not completly useless once protoss/zerg switches their unit comp instantly.
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France13018 Posts
Lol VTPerfect, terran's macro is the easiest and most forgiving? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?
Terran's supply mechanic is the hardest and most unforgiving, first of all, the production / barracks timings are hard to master (especially because you can't play passive). Oh and you have to balance your production / power up with income greatly affected by mules, thus lower when attacking (cuz of scans) and higher while harassing/defending.
Bio's macro is hard, mech's might not be but you can't mech in every MU anyways
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On March 23 2012 06:58 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:55 petro1987 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. I don't think you understood what he meant. Being the race that always has to make something happen or die in the late game is more mentally taxing then playing defensively (especially if you know the timings of the agressions), at least for the majority of average gamers. "Pick another race?" Isn't it already happening? lol. Isn't that the whole point of this thread (where did all terran go?)? all i see is a bunch of whine. look at the GSL racial balance. if they can do it, so can you. and if you dont wanna put the effort into it, then dont be a pro gamer. if ur not a progamer, then u shouldnt really care much about balance. sc2 is like life, certain races need to work harder than others to achieve the same amount of success. u wanna give up just cus its unfair then go ahead.
So, If I don't wanna be a pro gamer I must just put more effort to have the same success because it is what it is? Well, I guess many people decided it's not worth it and they just switched races. Have fun playing 80%+ of PvZ and PvP.
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really an awesome player, had not heard from him before, so i am back to watching instead of playing for now! -1 T xD
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On March 23 2012 06:58 Bluerain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 02:55 petro1987 wrote:On March 23 2012 02:49 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 23 2012 02:25 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 22 2012 22:09 Thrombozyt wrote:
The terran problem is illustrated very simple:
Given a 15min no rush game, terran loses.
In what scenario are Toss or Zerg compelled to attack a Terran? Nearly every time for Zerg/Toss it's better to sit back, get more tech, more bases and work towards their endgame.
I'm growing tired of being forced to be the aggressor in the game and I'm thinking about switching to Zerg, where I just have to defend and can decided when to attack and I won't lose ground when there is a lull in the game.
This. Terrans got tired of being the race that HAS to attack, HAS to pressure etc.. Pick another race? What a ridiculous statement. Terran is designed and is given the options to be agressive. If you don't like the design of the race, pick another. Protoss nowadays is very agressive as well as Zerg... if you want to sit back, work on a style that works with it. I don't think you understood what he meant. Being the race that always has to make something happen or die in the late game is more mentally taxing then playing defensively (especially if you know the timings of the agressions), at least for the majority of average gamers. "Pick another race?" Isn't it already happening? lol. Isn't that the whole point of this thread (where did all terran go?)? all i see is a bunch of whine. look at the GSL racial balance. if they can do it, so can you. and if you dont wanna put the effort into it, then dont be a pro gamer. if ur not a progamer, then u shouldnt really care much about balance. sc2 is like life, certain races need to work harder than others to achieve the same amount of success. u wanna give up just cus its unfair then go ahead.
Absolute idiocy. This might be the single most retarded thing I have read on TL (and I've just reread the planetary FE strategy thread.) People should just deal with one race being a lot harder than the others because life is like that? That's fucking retarded.. no it's beyond retarded. I don't think a retard could come up with something as stupid as what you just posted. This game is not primarily for the select few who invest their life into it.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 23 2012 07:05 Poopi wrote:
Lol VTPerfect, terran's macro is the easiest and most forgiving? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?
Terran's supply mechanic is the hardest and most unforgiving, first of all, the production / barracks timings are hard to master (especially because you can't play passive). Oh and you have to balance your production / power up with income greatly affected by mules, thus lower when attacking (cuz of scans) and higher while harassing/defending.
Bio's macro is hard, mech's might not be but you can't mech in every MU anyways
Terran's have the roughest supply mechanic? Are you joking? You have supply drop, a 50 energy spell that gives you 8 supply for free and is almost as cost effective as a MULE (given mining time lost, the fact that the 100 minerals are retroactive since you'd have to start building the supply depot a while ago, and other factors). I don't think building supply depots are inherently any harder than building pylons or overlords. You just look at your supply to see if you need to build them, then spend the money, and then you wait for it to build. Production for terran is no harder or easier than production for protoss (I might suggest that protoss has it a little harder since you don't have the option of queuing a little bit before the unit finishes so that you don't miss out on production time with warp gates, and you have to look away from the battle to warp units in so you can't micro as much).
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On March 23 2012 07:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2012 07:05 Poopi wrote:
Lol VTPerfect, terran's macro is the easiest and most forgiving? Do you have any clue what you are talking about?
Terran's supply mechanic is the hardest and most unforgiving, first of all, the production / barracks timings are hard to master (especially because you can't play passive). Oh and you have to balance your production / power up with income greatly affected by mules, thus lower when attacking (cuz of scans) and higher while harassing/defending.
Bio's macro is hard, mech's might not be but you can't mech in every MU anyways Terran's have the roughest supply mechanic? Are you joking? You have supply drop, a 50 energy spell that gives you 8 supply for free and is almost as cost effective as a MULE (given mining time lost, the fact that the 100 minerals are retroactive since you'd have to start building the supply depot a while ago, and other factors). I don't think building supply depots are inherently any harder than building pylons or overlords. You just look at your supply to see if you need to build them, then spend the money, and then you wait for it to build. Production for terran is no harder or easier than production for protoss (I might suggest that protoss has it a little harder since you don't have the option of queuing a little bit before the unit finishes so that you don't miss out on production time with warp gates, and you have to look away from the battle to warp units in so you can't micro as much).
Even if you miss a warp cycle by a little bit, you can still get 2 warps ins easily before I can produce 2 cycles out of barracks, with queing taking minerals away early.
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Terrans a tough race to learn, the micro is crazy and the multitasking is hard as well
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EPT
