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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 14:21 H0bgawblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:14 fourColo wrote:
Just because you would prefer that everyone act like a child and drop hurtful, off the cuff racist remarks, does not mean everyone does. One day, when you grow up, you will learn that no everyone has the same opinion as you and that you have to deal with it. That isn't even relevant to what I posted. I never once said I prefer people to act racist. If your going to reply to someone, it's best to make sense and disagree with dignity. I even said it was great that we condemned the behavior. The issue I had was people nailing EG by contacting their sponsers before giving them a chance to handle the issue. Also to the comment that qouted me earlier. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was shooting alex down. I feel like he HAD to make that huge long post, and THAT is the annoying part.
It's almost as if there's enough people that get offended by casual racism that using it is a really bad idea!
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people.
This is just... have you ever said the word "nigger" in the hearing of a group of black people? How did they react?
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On March 09 2012 14:19 Kaladin wrote:
While I respect EG for letting Orb go, this is clearly a double standard. Until Idra is let go for all the hateful things he has said in the past, including the word f*****, which IMO is just as bad as any racist term, I do not think we should be sending good words to EG's sponsors. In fact, I will be sending a complaint to each of EG's sponsors until an explanation is made as to why Idra is (or perhaps was, maybe it doesn't happen anymore) allowed to act much worse than Orb and get away with it with only a smack on the hand. I encourage everyone who agrees that racist AND homophobic people shouldn't be allowed on EG to do the same.
Send your criticism to Alex. There is no need to send complaints to sponsors. In fact, doing that is damaging for the sc2 scene, not just EG. Going to sponsors is the stupidest thing you can do. Like the people who complained to steelseries for not renewing Grubby's contract.
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Its silly how first, people were so angry and waiting orbs head on a pike over this. Then on top of it they start attacking EGs sponsors about orb, and they say this is to much of a overreaction? The only reason is because you all pushed it this far. Sure what he said was wrong, but these were old and just rage. I don't understand why most of you are so surprised they had to let him go.
Now on top of it u call for Idra to be fired? Are you kidding me, how about we start attacking Destiny and his team and whoever else starts to rage and call people "faggots" etc on stream or in a ladder game.
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On March 09 2012 14:21 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 Zzoram wrote:
I really, really hope that TL admin is talking about an official policy about streaming behavior. Make a thread in Website Feedback if you like.
You are getting dangerously close to 10K. Would hate to see you use your milestone on this  .
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No excuse for the language, but the double-standard and the self-righteousness make me even sicker.
Also this is pretty much going to the point of saying anyone's past can be dug up (I'm sure most everyone has raged and said some things they aren't proud of at some point) and you will be punished for it.
Pretty ridiculous.
Not sure whether to be more disappointed in EG or the community for causing this shitstorm.
Either way, grats on getting rid of one of the better, if not best, analytic casters we have (or had).
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You know, I've come to the conclusion that white people being over-zealous in persecuting so-called 'trivial racism' do it to elevate themselves above fellow whites, not to defend the minorities who otherwise wouldn't give a damn.
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This is bad. This is bad for SC2 in general. Bad for Blizzard, bad for EG, bad for TL, bad for the players, bad for the viewers, bad for everyone.
We all preach about e-sports and SC2 becoming main stream but who in their right minds wants to get invlolved in shit like this. This stuff happens on a weekly basis.
This community is killing itself faster and faster every week. You may think you are weeding out the bad but you are not, you are weeding out everything with this type of crap. I mean really, going to the sponsors? Come on people, do you not see how something like that affects every fucking team, player and caster there is?
Orb in the EG house could have been something great, but the community has ruined it for themselves.
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"yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know."
So when Idra acts in an unacceptable way, you talk to him about it.
When orb is found to have acted in an unacceptable way BEFORE he worked for EG, you fire him.
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On March 09 2012 13:47 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 13:40 RJGooner wrote:On March 09 2012 13:34 Chill wrote:
Ugh. My head is just empty. What a dumb situation. Could you elaborate a bit more Chill? I'd be interested to hear your views on the situation. It's just dumb. Orb shouldn't be raging and using slurs. Orb shouldn't have said anything and definitely shouldn't have lied. EG also shouldn't have done anything. Two days later, everyone would have forgotten. The people who declared they were boycotting EG would likely have kept doing what they were doing previous to this situation. Orb deserved a public shaming and a stern talking to from EG. Not this. And I think above all, people don't realize how much they can shape someone's life. The people who organized this situation are now going to keep doing what they're doing while Orb tries to rearrange his real life. I appreciate that he should have to take responsibility for his actions, but he didn't deserve this. As I've said before - keep burning your volunteers and soon you're going to find that you don't have any more.
Very well said.
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On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic.
One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist.
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On March 09 2012 14:22 McTeazy wrote:
This is rather ridiculous. Unless his stream is considered a work related thing for EG, they really have no right to fire. Also can everyone stop pissing their pants over words? who the fuck cares about the word? it's the racist fucker using it you should be concerned about. using the word doesn't make a racist and shouldn't automatically get you labelled as one.
In a whole other sense, EG should start making the level of professionalism expected from their employees clear to them so BS like this doesn't ruin the career of someone else
How do you know they have no right? Have you read his contract?
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On March 09 2012 14:11 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:09 pugowar wrote:On March 09 2012 14:08 Gamegene wrote:He got banned for making aggressive posts on TL. And I guess he should be fired as well, right? TL doesn't employ IdrA. If you were using proper logic, you'd also notice that this post was January 2010 before SC2, ie before IdrA joined EG.
The comments made by orb were made before he joined EG as well.
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United States48 Posts
A bit of an overreaction IMO, not that i am particulary a fan of orb. I just have a bit more "evil" expectations of evil geniouses then a company that gets uproared over petty vocabulary.
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On March 09 2012 14:18 rS.eZrA wrote:
I just don't understand why someone being in such a position would do something so stupid.
At least make a fake account if you KNOW you rage during games...c'mon...
He wasnt hired at EG when this happened, that's kind of important
People here are talking about ethics, racism morality,when the reality is that a drama just happened and EG just wanted to not take any risk. EG CEO should have just stated that buisness is buisness instead of telling us the story of his "black degree studies"
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On March 09 2012 14:22 dgwow wrote:
Yeah this is damage control... but it's not so bad if they gave Orb a warning first and then he made them look bad again.
He made them look bad by lying. He lied saying it wasn't him that it was a friend, when asked by EG himself he said the same thing he told everyone else, he lied when it was dug up even more confirmining it was him, and thus this happened. You can't just lie like that and not expect to be punished severly.
Like I said earlier, if you did something wrong/bad at work and were talked to about it and you lied saying it wasn't you, but someone else and then you were caught, 90% chance you are going to get fired when they find out you lied.
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I think you're the one not understanding. The framework you're using is fine, I'm more inclined to Peirce myself, but whatever. However what you're not grasping and what I find wholly objectionable and short-sighted is the perpetual attention given to manipulating signifiers rather than acknowledging and manipulating the medium proper. The "old signified" need not go to a new signifier, rather, we can disrupt the process by paying attention to the potential use of any possible signifier via the medium that attaches to said "old signified".
In more ordinary terms: pay attention to the use of each word (signifier) by focusing on the meanings behind it. You get this by focusing on the medium, and how any word can be used through the medium to convey an objectionable or profane concept. Should the word "nagger" get off the ground as an oblique use of the n-word (in reference to South Park), you need merely to examine it's function within the aforementioned medium to see that it is activating a number of objectionable notions (essentialism, biologism, etc) that add up to the previous meaning, or the old signified.
Why do we not do that? Why is it in fact more effective to bury a signifier and people's careers alongside it (and people themselves sometimes) in the name of righting a social wrong? Most people tend to go with the use-argument that your original respondent referenced. Are they to be condemned simply for not having a better grasp on linguistics and anthropology? Is Orb just a sacrificial lamb in the righteous crusade of burying signifiers? It doesn't make sense. "Radical demystification" need not entail reducing and rendering transparent the medium, but instead keeping it present in mind and understanding our words through it.
As far as your snide dismissal of the previous poster's notion of Buddhism goes, it would actually be very likely that the Dalai Lama would not object to a program of "radical demystification". He is a member of the Prasangika Madhyamaka School of Mahayana Buddhism, and therefore believes that all Conventional Truth, which operates as an Ontological version of the "medium" you mentioned, is wholly without reference to the Ultimate Truth, and therefore any attempts at laying hold of it via any sort of language or thinking are folly. In short, Conventional Truth, your medium, is something to be transcended. It is radical demystification. The Svatantrika Madhyamaka Buddhists, though, the lesser known relatives and rivals to the now quite popular Prasangika School, would be more interested in manipulating the Conventional Signifiers as you seem so bent on doing, since they thought you could build a bridge to the Ultimate out of words from the Conventional. Both schools of Buddhism would mock your attempt to "bury signifiers" mercilessly though, as typical of a course Westerner.
On March 09 2012 13:38 sam!zdat wrote:
You don't understand. We consciously bury the word as a social affirmation that it is not acceptable in the social discourse, and that therefore its referent is not acceptable in the social space.
The "context and emotion" conveyed through some utterance (parole) in language (langage) always stands in a tripartite relationship with the recipient and the particular semiotic code which mediates (langue). Because the message is always conveyed in the medium, the medium UNAVOIDABLY shapes the message - demystification is the process of seeing through the medium strategically in order to better access the original message.
What you are advocating is one of two possible solutions to the problem of such profanity in culture. Your position is radical and universal demystification - basically asking that everybody empty the signifier of its old content and apply it whole to a new signified. Under radical demystification, however, the old signified which has been freed will simply go to a new signifier, and you have the problem all over again.
The other, better, solution, is to bury the signifier and make it taboo. This does not create the problem of the loose signified, and performs the social function mentioned above.
I doubt the Dalai Lama would endorse your conclusions from "Buddhism."
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I dont agree with this decision, an apology from Orb would have been enough i think.
Alex, you just opened a pandora box...
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:23 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:21 motbob wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 Zzoram wrote:
I really, really hope that TL admin is talking about an official policy about streaming behavior. Make a thread in Website Feedback if you like. You are getting dangerously close to 10K. Would hate to see you use your milestone on this .
I've got something special planned for 10K, don't worry.
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On March 09 2012 14:22 Argolis wrote:
I hope nobody else on EG has ever been documented using words like "faggot" or "rape" in the past or else their jobs should be on the chopping block as well. Oh wait, incontrol and idra have on numerous occasions but they have more fans so they get a free pass.
Glad we got our pitchforks out and resolved racism on the internet. Problem solved! Let's get Kony next?
its all about seeking that drama, EG did nothing but lose my respect by giving in to the reddit mob
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EPT
