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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 09 2012 14:19 pugowar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:17 reneg wrote:On March 09 2012 14:12 kochanfe wrote:On March 09 2012 13:13 Luepert wrote:
Idra calls people faggots while officailly representing EG
Idra gets the largest fanbase in all of starcraft 2
Idra gets paid lots of money by EG.
Orb calls people niggers while on his own personal time
Orb has few fans
Orb gets fired by EG. Very true (albeit orb did try to cover it up but, still...). And Alex has words with IdrA every time he uses it on ladder. Read his twitter, have you seen idra call someone a 'faggot' recently? Edit: This guy should too: On March 09 2012 14:17 GenocideRun wrote:
Nigga please. If yer gunna dismiss him for something he did before he was a part of EG, then dismiss Idra for all of his hateful bullshit he did before he was a member of EG. People need to get over shit. What is your point with this post? It doesn't matter when Orb said something...it was in the past and he got fired. Idra said this, drops F Bombs and all sorts of other unprofessional language and it is okay because it is in the past...you don't see a double standard there at all?
They said they wouldn't have hired him in the first place had they known about this behavior ahead of time. When they found out, they let him go. Also, HE LIED TO EG, HIS EMPLOYER. I can't believe people don't take into account that last part...
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On March 09 2012 14:25 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:19 pugowar wrote:On March 09 2012 14:17 reneg wrote:On March 09 2012 14:12 kochanfe wrote:On March 09 2012 13:13 Luepert wrote:
Idra calls people faggots while officailly representing EG
Idra gets the largest fanbase in all of starcraft 2
Idra gets paid lots of money by EG.
Orb calls people niggers while on his own personal time
Orb has few fans
Orb gets fired by EG. Very true (albeit orb did try to cover it up but, still...). And Alex has words with IdrA every time he uses it on ladder. Read his twitter, have you seen idra call someone a 'faggot' recently? Edit: This guy should too: On March 09 2012 14:17 GenocideRun wrote:
Nigga please. If yer gunna dismiss him for something he did before he was a part of EG, then dismiss Idra for all of his hateful bullshit he did before he was a member of EG. People need to get over shit. What is your point with this post? It doesn't matter when Orb said something...it was in the past and he got fired. Idra said this, drops F Bombs and all sorts of other unprofessional language and it is okay because it is in the past...you don't see a double standard there at all? They said they wouldn't have hired him in the first place had they known about this behavior ahead of time. When they found out, they let him go. Also, HE LIED TO EG, HIS EMPLOYER. I can't believe people don't take into account that last part...
This, been saying this a couple times so people understand but they don't lol t-t.
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More or less I agree with everything said in this post, aside from the things I thought were unnecessarily wordy, except for this "I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors." That I find unacceptable. We as fans and supporters of an organization only have so much power, and a lot of that power is in our collective voice. If something that the community finds unacceptable occurs, than the community has every right to bring it to the attention of those that control the purse strings. Going to the sponsors keeps everyone accountable to the community, and insures that people such as yourself only associate with those that reflect only the best of the community. Us going to the sponsors keeps you and everyone associated with you accountable to the sponsors, and therefore to us. That's the way it should be, and I for one am actually very upset that you would explicitly state it was unfair for us to express outrage towards your sponsors, and then to ask us to not do it again in the future.
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I think this situation was extremely well handled by Alex and the EG team. Thank you for taking the time to fact check, especially, and verify everything before coming to a consensus.
On March 09 2012 14:26 goodpoltergeist wrote:
More or less I agree with everything said in this post, aside from the things I thought were unnecessarily wordy, except for this "I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors." That I find unacceptable. We as fans and supporters of an organization only have so much power, and a lot of that power is in our collective voice. If something that the community finds unacceptable occurs, than the community has every right to bring it to the attention of those that control the purse strings. Going to the sponsors keeps everyone accountable to the community, and insures that people such as yourself only associate with those that reflect only the best of the community. Us going to the sponsors keeps you and everyone associated with you accountable to the sponsors, and therefore to us. That's the way it should be, and I for one am actually very upset that you would explicitly state it was unfair for us to express outrage towards your sponsors, and then to ask us to not do it again in the future.
In this case (and not always, but definitely in this case!) I disagree. I believe that when EG management stated that they were looking into the issue and preparing a statement/taking actions, it would have been better to wait until those actions were taken before expressing dissatisfaction with sponsors.
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On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist.
Inherently racist, how interesting...
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On March 09 2012 14:20 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:14 RoboBob wrote:
It's refreshing to see a company that has a modern attitude towards race and social justice. I just liked Team EG on facebook in large part due to this post.
I believe that the community should forgive Orb for his behavior. But I also believe that EG made the right decision by letting him go. Modern here meaning extremely patronizing and over-reactive. This is not a big deal. You know who gets mad about people saying 'nigger' these days? White people, not black people. It continues to amaze the hell out of me that the people at the front lines (e.g. Alex) are invariably white and seem to be under the impression that there are massive racial problems going on in language. You really care about racism (not just Alex, but people in this thread in general)? Go to Detroit or a poor inner-city area and start trying to fix the problems where they actually are. Stop the cycle of poverty that breeds division between races. Nobody is going to criticize you for that. But people do get mad when people who would otherwise probably not participate in any social activism whatsoever 'stand up against racism' (see: this situation) and act like some great moral victory has been won. To me, it's just condescending nonsense, and while Alex's post is academic (though I can't say his style is very endearing) it's still just 21st century post-modernism coming out in force and is basically the manifestation of an extreme desire to see no one ever offended for anything, regardless of whether they have much grounds to feel offense.
Cute theory. Now go to Detroit and see if Caucasians or African Americans are more offended by your use of that epithet.
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On March 09 2012 14:24 kuan888 wrote:
I dont agree with this decision, an apology from Orb would have been enough i think.
Alex, you just opened a pandora box...
Context.....context..
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Also, HE LIED TO EG, HIS EMPLOYER. I can't believe people don't take into account that last part...
People dont take it into account because it was not given as the reason for his dismissal
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Yeah that was a friendly gesture hardly anything comparable to the use of a derogatory racial term towards another player.
You are trying to compare two totally different things. CONTEXT
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Bleh, guess I'm less PC. In the context used, it was simply a nerd rage string of swear words.
It's your team and it's probably the right decision, but I think you take the word to heart WAY too much. I have a hard time sympathizing with black people re: being offended by the word when it's so liberally used in communication amongst themselves.
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On March 09 2012 14:25 Charger wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:19 pugowar wrote:On March 09 2012 14:17 reneg wrote:On March 09 2012 14:12 kochanfe wrote:On March 09 2012 13:13 Luepert wrote:
Idra calls people faggots while officailly representing EG
Idra gets the largest fanbase in all of starcraft 2
Idra gets paid lots of money by EG.
Orb calls people niggers while on his own personal time
Orb has few fans
Orb gets fired by EG. Very true (albeit orb did try to cover it up but, still...). And Alex has words with IdrA every time he uses it on ladder. Read his twitter, have you seen idra call someone a 'faggot' recently? Edit: This guy should too: On March 09 2012 14:17 GenocideRun wrote:
Nigga please. If yer gunna dismiss him for something he did before he was a part of EG, then dismiss Idra for all of his hateful bullshit he did before he was a member of EG. People need to get over shit. What is your point with this post? It doesn't matter when Orb said something...it was in the past and he got fired. Idra said this, drops F Bombs and all sorts of other unprofessional language and it is okay because it is in the past...you don't see a double standard there at all? They said they wouldn't have hired him in the first place had they known about this behavior ahead of time. When they found out, they let him go. Also, HE LIED TO EG, HIS EMPLOYER. I can't believe people don't take into account that last part...
exaclty. it seems people didnt read/process the statement made by Alex
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On March 09 2012 14:24 Luepert wrote:
"yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know."
So when Idra acts in an unacceptable way, you talk to him about it.
When orb is found to have acted in an unacceptable way BEFORE he worked for EG, you fire him.
you say this as like you don't know how idra is way more valuable to EG than orb.
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On March 09 2012 14:26 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist. Inherently racist, how interesting...
Any part of that which you aren't getting sweetheart?
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On March 09 2012 14:07 Gamegene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:04 kochanfe wrote:On March 09 2012 12:55 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I respect this decision and reasoning. I share pretty much every opinion expressed by Alex in this statement. WOW, you too Tyler, that's too bad. I guess not everyone is as intelligent as they appear. just because he doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean he's not intelligent -_-
I didn't say that... lol
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On March 09 2012 14:26 mango_destroyer wrote:Context.....context..
Orb also have a special context, yet he's still fired.
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On March 09 2012 14:24 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 14:20 xiaofan wrote:
Destiny would have so much to say on this topic. One of his pathetic arguments about how an inherently racist term isn't inherently racist.
Begging the question is a pretty poor form of argumentation.
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Well-written, and I agree with everything you said Alex.
Great post.
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People contacted EG sponsors right away? I don't even...
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"...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community ."
I found the post very well spelled out, for the most part at least, but this part just rubbed me the wrong way. I honestly don't see why your organization can't lead the charge on this. You have to wait for the masses to say it's not ok until you're willing to act on it? This comment just makes it seem like that if no one gave a crap about Orb's racist comments, your organization wouldn't give a crap either. That isn't standing up for your fundamental beliefs, that's just pandering to popular opinion. And it really cheapens pretty much everything you said up to that point. (btw, I think it's pretty obvious the player on EG in particular who I'm thinking about as I write this.)
Show that it's not ok for your players to do that as well. Show that your team is committed social justice in the same way that you are. Show that social justice is something that is real and not just some relegation of academia. Saying you're not willing to fight something until you have millions at your back is just cheap.
Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to see an ESports organization not accepting racist comments from it's members (although you still have people who still do this, just not at the "severity" of saying n-----; like as if being "kinda" racist is ok or something), but to hear that you wished people would get up in arms over homophobia so that THEN you could act on it is flat out frustrating and disappointing.
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Great post. I liked Orb's casting, but EG made the right decision.
On March 09 2012 12:50 kibeth wrote:
I actually find your post overly condescending and obnoxious, and I like EG as an organization.
It's kind of like if I stole a toy from a grocery store when I was 8. Later in life I work there, and somehow someone finds out that a decade ago I stole a 99cent toy, and I was fired. Sounds ridiculous right?
Did you? How the hell did you find it condescending and obnoxious? I can only imagine you having that reaction if you didn't understand it. In that case, instead of responding defensively, you should ask questions and get them answered.
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