Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis.
That's pretty damn ridiculous.
That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no?
That's not even close to being similar to the Orb situation. Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones, and whether or not they're aimed at a black persn is irrelevant. As someone who's worked with/ taught/ tutored students who have a variety of mental disabilities, I don't see a way this could be blown out of proportion to the level of Orb's remarks. Artosis is acting silly and overly happy. He's bouncing around like a little kid. If you think that this should be offensive because mentally deficient people apparently act this way on a regular basis, I think you don't have a good handle on what the difference is between acting like a kid and having a handicap.
What's next: you think giggling casters should be banned because you once heard a blind kid laugh, and so therefore it's offensive towards the blind? Someone needs to post the video of Day[9] laughing at himself laughing, because that's clearly offensive towards those of us who are visually impaired. Jesus.
There's no slippery slope here. Racism and slander should be removed. Being silly, happy, and energetic: That can stay.
This was not racism though. He said nigger, but he was not saying it in the context of black people, he was not calling the guy a nigger, he was not being racist. Would it have been better if he said it was fucking gay? We sure throw that around a lot in this community.
He was BM, he cursed the guy out, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it was racially motivated, that's what makes someone racist. IS orb right? no. Is he a racist? no!
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
yes tht may be relevant to being called a moron or a dick head etc its not relevant to racial and especially homophobic slurs, people dont kill themselves from being called a dick head or a moron all the time they do kill themselves for being called a faggot all the time, i think 6% of all suicides are for LGBT issues in the UK.
Homophobic and racial hate crime is still a big issue in the liberal parts of the world and in the non liberal parts of the world you can be killed for being gay or have life inprisonment. Everyone who uses those words is trivialising homophobia and racism which ive said is completely unacceptable.
You're both being ridiculous and it's because you've been brainwashed by this "politically correct" culture that's all around us. While I trivialize this hateful of language, you both stigmatize it by creating these artificial boundaries where some words are worse than others.
If homosexuals and black people are offended by people who aren't homophobic or racist, well it's up to them to grow the fuck up. Homosexuals are more likely to commit suicide, and that's a fucking shame. But I'm the one who'll always speak up against homophobic people who voice their ridiculous opinions, and I'll debate them into the ground. I don't believe that my usage of the word is bad in any way.
I don't think I'm trivializing homophobia. I'm trivializing homosexuality - and you're fighting against that. You're fighting the wrong battle.
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
The whole point people are trying to make to you is that there is no such implication, simply because you infer something does not neccesitate that a speaker meant to imply what you inferred.
As a listener all you can do is infer, you have no capacity for deciding what a speaker intended to imply, your inferring ALWAYS runs a risk of missing the mark and being different from what the speaker intended to imply, this is the very nature of langauge.
Come on man.
Give me an example of when you were called a faggot and inferred that it was meant as a compliment.
edit: last post on the subject because my brain is going to explode.
Read this as if I am talking to you very slowly, maybe that will help.
The point I made about implication and inference was general, focusing on a particular example misses the point, though I'm not entirely convinced you're not missing the point on purpose.
I have been called a faggot, where it was negatively connotated, but where I did not infer that the speaker thought that I was gay, or was giving any thought homosexuality whatsoever.
The term faggot, literally in it's original meaning, means a bundle of sticks, it first became a derogatory term used towards widows who could not remarry and were poor and subsequentially collected firewood, 'faggots', in order to sell them to make a meager living. Later, it became gradually became an insult used towards any man one wanted to imply acted in an effeminate manner, implying that they were like the poor old widows, then in more recent times it got cast in our popular culture as a derogatory term towards homosexuals.
It doesn't have to be meant as a compliment for the inferernce to have nothing to do with homosexuality, though it may well be used in this way, the dominante derogatory word used towards homosexuals before 'faggot' and 'dyke' took over the lexicon was 'queer' and the LGBT community did preicsely this sort of reclaiming of the word, that is they started using it with a positive connotation.
On March 10 2012 02:51 bonifaceviii wrote: As an aside to all this, the people who complained to EG's sponsors about something orb said before he was part of EG and before EG could perform the appropriate damage control are the worst people involved in this whole incident.
Just putting that out there.
I have to agree with this. Sponsors are the lifeblood of this eSports organism. Sure, fans are important, and losing one fan who was offended or losing one player / caster pales in comparison to the damage done to the entire eSports organization by going behind the backs of those in charge out of some kind of self-righteousness to address their sponsors directly. The sponsors have no say in the actions of the employees. The sponsors don't pick the teams. The sponsors don't punish the players. What the sponsors do is take their money and take it elsewhere, away from the entire scene if they receive enough complaints. I wonder how often people write the sponsors to tell them what a great thing they're doing. Keep sending them bitchy letters about things that can be handled much lower down on the hierarchy and see how long this eSports thing can fly.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say.
Done, and yes, emotions are important. I am completely in favour of removing people who actually make racist statements in a completely coherent, ordinary state of mind. I am against crucifying people who use them in a state of emotional duress.
I for one lost any respect for EG. There were my favorite team. I can't root for a team that's CEO is so blatantly hypocritical. They've set a standard that they cannot live up to in future dealings. Good look finding players who've never used "hate-language" toward any group whatsoever. Every EG member has said offensive things to one group or another and that was while working for EG. This is just stupid.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say.
Done, and yes, emotions are important. I am completely in favour of removing people who actually make racist statements in a completely coherent, ordinary state of mind. I am against crucifying people who use them in a state of emotional duress.
1. Thank you, I appreciate it.
1.5 I've edited my post since you quoted it, it's worth going back and reading it.
2. I haven't even really been discussing the Orb situation. I get that he was in a state of emotional duress, but that's important because he was making a bad decision. I respect Alex's decision to remove him. I agree with it, too. I think if I knew somebody who shouted that word at somebody in public or in private, I would no longer acquaint myself with them. It's a statement on character.
Racism is perpetuated by the people who take offense to racist comments. I don't believe f---t to be an "evil" word, nor do I believe n----- to be an "evil" word in today's society, they are simply words to express one's discontent. In my opinion, they are no worse than f--- or sh--, in that they are simply powerful words that people take notice to, and which you would likely not use in a widely public scenario. I don't believe that orb's actions were justifiable due to the fact that he used these words publicly, thus damaging his name and the name of EG, but it's a time like this that I believe JK Rowling had it best - fear of a name perpetuates the fear of an object. Fear of racist vocabulary will simply perpetuate racism itself.
I am so gratified to know that someone with a humanities background is at the helm of EG! My respect for their organization just went up a ton. Thank you, Alex, for being awesome!
I'm really surprised that people went over EG's head to complain...don't take it as an organizational problem, people. If you're doing that shit, you're out for blood, not justice. Learn the difference.
I see where you come from, but I think a severe repemanding would've been a much better choice. Though I agree that esports should have a strong set of moral code, we should also be a community which allows for 2nd chances.
On March 10 2012 02:24 Friendlymots wrote: Probably posted before, cant be arsed to read 120 pages. But you write n***** , i think of the word. To better understand my position and why i think this is out of proportions, see thid:
This was not racism though. He said nigger, but he was not saying it in the context of black people, he was not calling the guy a nigger, he was not being racist. Would it have been better if he said it was fucking gay? We sure throw that around a lot in this community.
He was BM, he cursed the guy out, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it was racially motivated, that's what makes someone racist. IS orb right? no. Is he a racist? no!
I don't know if i completely agree with this. He was caught an punished for using this exact language during the beta. He had his stream taken out of featured for a period of time. The fact that he learned nothing from that and continued to use this as his go to insult can lead you to believe he may be racist.
I don't think this is true but it does show both a complete lack of impulse control, which seems to infect a great deal of people who take part in online gaming, and that he can't seem to adjust his behavior when confronted. Anybody can fuck up once but it is the repetition that is the issue for me.
On March 10 2012 03:09 ZackAttack wrote: I am shocked at the amount of people who are typing "f-----" and n-----" instead of faggot and nigger. Why are you doing that?
Personal decision never to type or say those words, but we still have to make reference to them. We understand that discussing them academically will probably not have an impact on anything, but we're holding to a previous decision we've made.
EPT
