Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis.
That's pretty damn ridiculous.
That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no?
That's not even close to being similar to the Orb situation. Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones, and whether or not they're aimed at a black persn is irrelevant. As someone who's worked with/ taught/ tutored students who have a variety of mental disabilities, I don't see a way this could be blown out of proportion to the level of Orb's remarks. Artosis is acting silly and overly happy. He's bouncing around like a little kid. If you think that this should be offensive because mentally deficient people apparently act this way on a regular basis, I think you don't have a good handle on what the difference is between acting like a kid and having a handicap.
What's next: you think giggling casters should be banned because you once heard a blind kid laugh, and so therefore it's offensive towards the blind? Someone needs to post the video of Day[9] laughing at himself laughing, because that's clearly offensive towards those of us who are visually impaired. Jesus.
There's no slippery slope here. Racism and slander should be removed. Being silly, happy, and energetic: That can stay.
This was not racism though. He said nigger, but he was not saying it in the context of black people, he was not calling the guy a nigger, he was not being racist. Would it have been better if he said it was fucking gay? We sure throw that around a lot in this community.
He was BM, he cursed the guy out, but I highly HIGHLY doubt it was racially motivated, that's what makes someone racist. IS orb right? no. Is he a racist? no!
Sigh. If you don't understand by now, after hundreds of pages and multiple threads, you're never going to. What makes you think I can't get offended (as a straight white guy) at someone calling me a fucking faggot or a fucking nigger? They're used in the negative sense, to imply two things: I'm inferior, and that gay or black people are inferior. I don't have to be gay or black to be offended by this overt bigotry, and you don't even have to know me for me to be offended by you calling me those names.
Experiment: The next time you have a job with a straight white boss, call him those names when you're angry. Or hell, call him those names even when you're not. (If you think the fact that Orb was on the internet makes a difference, send him an e-mail instead.) It won't matter. See if you're still allowed to work there again.
And for you to compare Katu's slander and Orb's comments to Artosis acting like a goofball... it just shows you don't understand how things work in the real world.
On March 10 2012 02:58 Soma Cruz wrote: Did everyone here already see this CatZ video? Seems Reddit cooled down since it was posted there.
What a horribly defended, and weakly structured viewpoint. Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream. Not only does he get offended by it, he also hates Orb for all the same reasons, and yet we're supposed to believe he thinks it's acceptable because the community is just overreacting. I really see no defense in his statement, or Destiny's or the multitude of other supporters of them. The problem is that Catz is just mirroring what Destiny told him about the word, and the two couldn't ever, ever construct a solid argument around using racial slurs willy nilly like they do. The same old re-hash of logical fallacy is thrown around, again and again--and no one ever consults the real issue and dismisses it the same.
Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream
On March 10 2012 02:58 Soma Cruz wrote: Did everyone here already see this CatZ video? Seems Reddit cooled down since it was posted there.
What a horribly defended, and weakly structured viewpoint. Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream. Not only does he get offended by it, he also hates Orb for all the same reasons, and yet we're supposed to believe he thinks it's acceptable because the community is just overreacting. I really see no defense in his statement, or Destiny's or the multitude of other supporters of them. The problem is that Catz is just mirroring what Destiny told him about the word, and the two couldn't ever, ever construct a solid argument around using racial slurs willy nilly like they do. The same old re-hash of logical fallacy is thrown around, again and again--and no one ever consults the real issue and dismisses it the same.
True. Looking to Catz and Destiny as examples of how to behave is pretty much a sure-fire way to end up on shit-street.
Okay now serious response. You fire orb for saying "nigger" in some game over a year ago when not being racist(As in using the word in the same way as one would use fag - you don't mean anything against homosexuality with it, and usually don't even think about the meaning. It's just an insult against that person. What if he calls someone an asshole, or even a retard? Retard is an insult against retarded people in the exact same way. However, the person doesn't intend it that way. It's only directed at the target, no one else. Calling someone a faggot doesn't mean you're undermining the fact they're homosexuals, or even that it has anything to do with homosexuality in the first place. It's just an insult.
Also, I think it's silly to only consider one word that way. Maybe that's your opinion, but this doesn't mean it's correct. There's words like "spick", "chink" and "gook" that might be just as bad or even worse to hear for the people who hear it. Actually, multiple black people I talk to personally don't mind the word "nigger" that much. I mean, it's obviously an insult, but it's not really so much worse as something like "retard", especially when used without racist inteantions, which basically means insulting a person with it without it having anything to do with their race.
There is also the thing that idra's called people niggers in games himself. I can't recall the exact game but I'm 99.95% certain of this. However if I'm incorrect, I apologize. In the case it's true, though, that's an obvious case of hypocrisy. Either way, "faggot" for instance is very commonly used by him, and I really wonder why it is that the word "nigger" gets so much special treatment when compared to words like "retard" and "faggot", which to me are similiar slurs.
And finally there's the case with the size of punishment in comparison to the size of the crime. I personally just cannot fathom how ladder-rage an extremely long time ago is worth such a serious punishment. Some form of punishment is certainly possible if seen fit(Though I personally would just go with a warning and a promise that it'll never happen again), but this to me is going overboard, and not even slightly so.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say. I'm not saying that you are the cause of things like what the play The Laramie Project describe. Not at all. You are probably a good person who respects everyone, and I don't say that sarcastically, I do mean it. But the attitude of, "other people's emotions shouldn't impact me, I should be able to say whatever I want, even if it's hurtful," that doesn't help.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say. I'm not saying that you are the cause of things like what the play The Laramie Project describe. Not at all. You are probably a good person who respects everyone, and I don't say that sarcastically, I do mean it. But the attitude of, "other people's emotions shouldn't impact me, I should be able to say whatever I want, even if it's hurtful," that doesn't help.
nsfw how?
Ridiculously blatant foul / sexual language. I believe that is classified as NSFW, but even if it's not, by your definition, I prefer to air on the side of caution.
Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream
How is "Mexican" a slur?
I assume that he's not actually Mexican, and so therefore labeling him as one and explicitly calling him one (like to his face) would be degrading. Probably shows a lack of tact and respect for his actual identity.
It's not a slur on its own, but in the context of stereotyping everyone with similar physical features as Mexican (or any other nationality) is disrespectful. At least, I could see that argument. It's like "Oh you have yellow skin and slanted eyes... you must be Chinese, so I'll call you Chinese (as opposed to a different Asian nationality)!"
On March 10 2012 02:58 Soma Cruz wrote: Did everyone here already see this CatZ video? Seems Reddit cooled down since it was posted there.
What a horribly defended, and weakly structured viewpoint. Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream. Not only does he get offended by it, he also hates Orb for all the same reasons, and yet we're supposed to believe he thinks it's acceptable because the community is just overreacting. I really see no defense in his statement, or Destiny's or the multitude of other supporters of them. The problem is that Catz is just mirroring what Destiny told him about the word, and the two couldn't ever, ever construct a solid argument around using racial slurs willy nilly like they do. The same old re-hash of logical fallacy is thrown around, again and again--and no one ever consults the real issue and dismisses it the same.
I mainly thought it was funny how he somehow related puritanism (a movement known for its sexist and homophobic tendencies, I however don't know their views on race without doing some research) to being politically correct (aka disliking the use of homophobic/racial slurs) because "you know puritans founded America and stuff". Other than his opinion on esports where he is in a position to understand what goes on, the rest of his opinion is so uneducated it's hilarious.
Seems to me like this dismissal might be overkill in terms of punishing someone for past actions, but I don't have all the facts, and EG is of course within its rights to maintain its image in the manner it deems appropriate. Thanks for forthright communication and transparency to all involved.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
This is an absurd and immature response. This is a classic example of blaming the victim. It's not YOUR fault that you said something hurtful, it's THEIR fault for being hurt.
I'm not going to say that telling a racist joke makes you a racist. The traditional construct of racism, on an individual scale by which you honestly believe one race inferior to another, is no longer terribly relevant. Racism is an institutional, cultural, very subtle thing. But when you tell a victim that it's their own fault for being hurt by what you said, you are contributing to racism. Nobody is saying you are racist, but you are contributing to racism. Do you understand?
You misunderstand. It's nobody's "fault." The fact of the matter, here, is that there is very little immoral about casually uttering the word nigger. If someone is offended by it, you might be only incidentally related to the hurt, because they have somehow misconstrued your casual utterance as a personal attack on them/their ethnicity, even though you did not intend it to be so. I am, however, saying that a mature, self-confident person is much less likely to feel substantially hurt by simply hearing a word, especially if it isn't directed at them. And judging by the posts from actual black people in this thread & numerous black celebrities, this seems to be the case.
No, it's actually your fault. When you say the word n----, you are saying a word which, to black people, coming from white people, means "inferior person who is inferior because he is black, and by the way, I'm coming for you." You hate accepting blame, but the only way you will ever understand someone else's life is by allowing that you might have been wrong in your actions.
Thanks for the armchair psychology. Maybe black people who are offended by this (which isn't all black people, btw, so your claim is false right from the get-go) should take a step back and realize that someone who is angry isn't exactly coherent.
There's nothing "wrong" about making a racist joke, except in the most trivial of ways.
It's such a cop out to claim that you aren't coherent when you're angry and therefore it's okay for you to use those words. You are ignoring the implied meaning of the word in order to excuse the fact that you're too lazy to exercise the self control you should to prevent yourself from using those words. The implied meaning of the word is that its an insult because it implies that the group of people it refers to are inferior. If it had no implied offensive meaning, you would obviously just be using any random word, such as "you are a football." Why don't you just use the word football? Because on your anger you are trying to get back at the person you're angry at, and the quickest and easiest way to do that is to hope that they're gay/black and call them a nigger/faggot.
In short, if you call someone a name in anger you are trying to offend them, so your choice of word is one that you think is offensive. Don't try to claim otherwise in order to excuse your wrongdoing.
LOL @ Alex using the uX story. That was so overblown out of proportion by people like you. Not surprised you'd take a shot at the CS community to pander and suck on the Starcraft community's collective d*** to get favorable opinion.
There's a reason the CS community took a dump on you. You supported the CGS, you backstabbed one of the foremost pioneers of eSports and you screwed ALL OF US up with your handling of CSPromod
Yes, some of us remember, some of us know who Alex Garfield actually is, some of us still wait on "THE END OF SEPTEMBER".
Garfield got lucky, in the right place at the right time, or else he'd be one of those managers you never heard of.
By the way, one of your contracted players uses faggot on a regular basis WHILE BEING CONTRACTED, but since he brings in the dough, he gets a free pass. Never liked EG since it switched from it's roots as a Canadian CS org.
Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream
How is "Mexican" a slur?
CatZ is peruvian. It's like how a lot of asians in the united states don't like being called chinese.
Catz doesn't ever, ever appreciate being called a "mexican" or any other racial slur/defamatory/derogatory remark related to his ethnicity or heritage--quite evident if you watch his stream
How is "Mexican" a slur?
CatZ is peruvian. It's like how a lot of asians in the united states don't like being called chinese.
I don't like being called Swedish either but it's nowhere near a slur o_o
On March 09 2012 15:32 jester- wrote: I'm honestly taken aback by how offended everyone appears to be over a word that lost it's true, hateful meaning to 95% of the worlds population decades ago.
Given that you've seen evidence of many people being offended, will you revise your estimate that 95% of the worlds population lost the hateful meaning decades ago and adjust future usage to take this into account?
Nope, because every single offended person is knee jerk over reacting to usage of the word that does not follow the hateful nature of the word I mentioned.
Orb finding out the guy he's playing is black and proceeding to throw out derogatory terms as a result? Yeah, that's racism and using the word with hateful intent.
Orb nerd raging and tossing out random curses before walking away from his computer? That's just a pissed off nerd.
I bet you for every time he said the word nigger, he said the word faggot or dip shit or fuck face or something similar a hundred times. It's not a matter of trying to insult or demean black people, it's just a person getting pissed and throwing out curses.
Ever heard someone hit themselves on the finger with a hammer (or similar situation) and yell out; "FUCKING COCK SUCKING..."
Oh call the reddit police, he's demeaning gay people.
Please.
We have legislation in our country against people discriminating on others on terms of race, do you think someone in the media could use the word nigger in the same context orb did and say something along the lines "Oh by dumb nigger I only meant dumb person" would be a suitable excuse to not lose your job? Or on that matter do you think you would be able to get away with even saying nigger in any sort of context infront of the supreme court?
Except this isn't someone in the media. When the incidents took place, this is some dude playing video games in his parents basement. Does that excuse the usage? No, it doesn't.
Honestly, you're going to sit here and compare SC2 game chat to the supreme court? You can't say fuck in the supreme court either, are we going to start banning casters for saying fuck or shit?
I don't even want to reply to this because you don't seem to understand.
"Oh by dumb nigger I only meant dumb person"
This isn't at all in any way what I'm saying.
You know what a curse word is right? Different people have different curse words, period. There is a world of a difference between using a word as a curse against an anonymous individual than a directed hate attack.
Well what i get from your posts is that Orbs use of nigger is equivalent to any swear, but that's wrong. Orb has gotten into trouble before for using the word nigger so he knew it was wrong and did it anyway. What bothers me is you're trying to defend the context in which he used the word nigger, which honestly I'm wondering why you would use the word nigger to demean someone. As a blackman I feel Orb IS a racist for using the word nigger to try and degrade someone.
I never said it wasn't wrong. It is wrong, but it's not wrong to the extent where tens of thousands of community members should be up in arms with a full fledged head hunt about it.
If you take the logic from your first sentence and apply it to the second last sentence, you will see that he isn't trying to demean anyone, he's just essentially yelling bullshit at someone who pissed him off. Like I said before and what you verified in your first sentence, the use of the word nigger here, from ORBS point of view, is no different than him calling someone an asshole (or similar).
If he doesn't have the intelligence to see that the word 'nigger' has a far far bigger impact and social stigma then 'asshole' then he lacks the base-intelligence to be the face of a company. I can understand EG not wanting to get involved with someone who doesn't get simple stuff like that. If I heard one of my employees use such language, because they are pissed off, I'd fire them on the spot. Orb has shown himself to be a liability and now pays the price for it
Our community should have at least some standards of decency. Just because it's online and losing on ladder is frustrating, doesn't suddenly make it ok to yell the most vile insults you can come up with at the time. In any other setting this stuff has severe consequences. You'd get your ass kicked, or lose your job, or get sued. Maybe it's political correctness, but it's how the world has worked for quite some time and Orb had...23 (I think) years to figure that out. He failed to notice the complete obvious and now paid the price for his own ignorance
Not that it matters, but would you fire someone if you saw them call someone a nigger while playing a video game? Better yet, could you? Language in the workplace versus someone's private environment is a tough call. I agree that EG did need to do something, but only because he is essentially a public figure and what he does in his private life (assuming it becomes public, like this) does have an impact on his overall brand.
I said multiple times already that it isn't acceptable, but that doesn't mean it warrants this ridiculous public outcry we have here.
I find it interesting that you say; "You'd get your ass kicked, or lose your job, or get sued" with the assumptions that:
1. The individual is automatically going to become aggressive because of a word and result to violence (stereotyping a little bit yourself, eh?). Also implying the person saying the word is weak I guess?
2. The person saying the word is in the position to get fired and not do the firing.
Get sued? Really? You would have to be one extreme individual to sue over being called a name in an unofficial environment, laws or no laws - I could understand this from an african american who was actually a slave, but no one else.
Anywhoo, feels like beating a dead horse here and no amount of arguing is going to change anything. Everyone has been successful and the big bad orb is essentially finished.
Watch your language everyone, or reddit's going to get you next!
"would you fire someone for calling someone a nigger while playing a video game" is such a disingenuous question in this situation. He wasn't just playing a video game - as a celebrity, laddering on the account named ORB, he should be aware that his actions might be seen by the public to represent his possible employers. And really, no one wants to be associated with people tossing that kind of grenade around.
I have a hard time believing you are in any management position as you so implied if you can't even read.
I know this was from yesterday, but I was asking YOU the questions - not in relation to orb and furthermore, the rest of your post simply restated what I said in my post.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say. I'm not saying that you are the cause of things like what the play The Laramie Project describe. Not at all. You are probably a good person who respects everyone, and I don't say that sarcastically, I do mean it. But the attitude of, "other people's emotions shouldn't impact me, I should be able to say whatever I want, even if it's hurtful," that doesn't help.
nsfw how?
Ridiculously blatant foul / sexual language. I believe that is classified as NSFW, but even if it's not, by your definition, I prefer to air on the side of caution.
if this video is nsfw you should never ever go on the forums
Man the OP could have been about 1/3 as long with the exact same message. It's drawn out, filled with community pandering, and shits on the CS community.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say. I'm not saying that you are the cause of things like what the play The Laramie Project describe. Not at all. You are probably a good person who respects everyone, and I don't say that sarcastically, I do mean it. But the attitude of, "other people's emotions shouldn't impact me, I should be able to say whatever I want, even if it's hurtful," that doesn't help.
nsfw how?
Ridiculously blatant foul / sexual language. I believe that is classified as NSFW, but even if it's not, by your definition, I prefer to air on the side of caution.
if this video is nsfw you should never ever go on the forums
cause they are nsfw. srsly
Why on earth are you attacking me for being considerate to other forum users?
EPT
