Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
On March 10 2012 02:35 aintz wrote: why is EG getting bashed for firing a stupid kid who rages, spits out racial slurs and then lie about it? does that really sound like a good employee to you people? and im truly amazed by the people who think just because its the internet you can say anything you want and get away with it.
Becuase he didn't say it while he was employed by them, he was originally warned and then someone dug something a year+ old up and he got fired. The fact that people went straight to the sponsors and a lot of us realize this was a money play and had nothing to do with racism, character, or anything else despite how Alex (masterfully) spun the situation. A lot of us are disgusted by the fact that if this was a more well known/liked person then there would not have been a problem in the first place, because popularity can get you off scott free in this community.
*EDIT -- at zorkmind, it's okay to act like you're retarded for a laugh? Is it just that the group being made fun of wouldn't recognize it? Does that make it okay?
Yes, in a sense, that is exactly how the world works. Orb's potential value to EG was completely turned upside down - he was hurting more than he was helping. When that happens you let that person go. It still hurts my brain so much that people continue to view this whole thing as just a game on the internet. There are real life businesses all around us, this is the real world. Let's use Idra as the counter point since many have done so already. Even with his past behavior being deplorable, EG still gets value from him so it is in their best interest to try to 'fix' Idra's bad behavior - which has been working rather well.
The debate on the morality of this is important and relevant but that is murky at best while from a business perspective (ie EG) it's a no brainer - Orb had to go.
edit - Also, although not explicitly stated by Alex, lying to your employer is never appropriate and I'm sure had some (if not a large) impact on EG's decision.
On March 09 2012 12:51 PowerDes wrote: What a joke. Let this be a warning guys, be on your bestest behavior when playing ladder games or the internet will destroy your reputation.
People really have no idea how often opportunities are missed and doors closed without them knowing. Because not only does the internet operate in funny ways, so do people in the real world. It's always best to be your best at all times. Those of us who sometimes allow ourselves to act worse do it at our own risk. The difference in attitude here is what often sets apart people who hit a plateau in life and people who miraculously, seemingly luckily, succeed.
Make excuses for your behavior all you want. Blame other people for being offended. You're only limiting yourself and how people perceive for very, very little benefit.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
This is an absurd and immature response. This is a classic example of blaming the victim. It's not YOUR fault that you said something hurtful, it's THEIR fault for being hurt.
I'm not going to say that telling a racist joke makes you a racist. The traditional construct of racism, on an individual scale by which you honestly believe one race inferior to another, is no longer terribly relevant. Racism is an institutional, cultural, very subtle thing. But when you tell a victim that it's their own fault for being hurt by what you said, you are contributing to racism. Nobody is saying you are racist, but you are contributing to racism. Do you understand?
You misunderstand. It's nobody's "fault." The fact of the matter, here, is that there is very little immoral about casually uttering the word nigger. If someone is offended by it, you might be only incidentally related to the hurt, because they have somehow misconstrued your casual utterance as a personal attack on them/their ethnicity, even though you did not intend it to be so. I am, however, saying that a mature, self-confident person is much less likely to feel substantially hurt by simply hearing a word, especially if it isn't directed at them. And judging by the posts from actual black people in this thread & numerous black celebrities, this seems to be the case.
No, it's actually your fault. When you say the word n----, you are saying a word which, to black people, coming from white people, means "inferior person who is inferior because he is black, and by the way, I'm coming for you." You hate accepting blame, but the only way you will ever understand someone else's life is by allowing that you might have been wrong in your actions.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
As an aside to all this, the people who complained to EG's sponsors about something orb said before he was part of EG and before EG could perform the appropriate damage control are the worst people involved in this whole incident.
stop comparing apples to oranges. i agree sometimes people to tend to be oversensitive about race subjects but this is not the case.
who made it ok to use such a word to vent anger when playing video games? and if you were ever in a clan/guild with people who use such phrases, you would know that most of them are actually racist.
There is no respect in a lot of the tournaments out there. Just the other day and friend of mine was called a f------ in the z33k cup and nothing was really done about it. In fact I was ganged up on in the chat channel and the admin pretty much shook it off and laughed as the player must have been his friend. I could only hope that the admins will read this article and get an idea that it's not tolerated.
And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all?
You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic.
thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt
but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist
you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets
Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language.
Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal.
okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this
The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad.
Hope you grow up, kiddo.
He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest.
Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo.
I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that?
Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez...
I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use.
Well stated. The claim that words are just words ignores the fact that communication is action. And all this discussion of individual intent holds not water. While courts attempt to measure the intent of the prosecuted, in our day-to-day community interactions, we have to account for the effects of our actions EVEN IF THOSE EFFECTS WERE NOT INTENDED. Sensitivity and respect for others in a community is founded in recognizing that our actions (including our use of words) are never performed in an individual vacuum.
People concerned that this is simple PC-politics are failing to recognize a much more complicated politics of the individual underlying this discussion. Thee notion that one can engage in any action is a purely individualistic fashion is a myth--in the U.S., it's bound up with the broader myth of liberal individualism. And it smacks, in this forum, of youthful entitlement and ignorance.
Wow, so intelligently put. The fact that there are people getting offended by these kind of words voids the argument that they aren't offensive--and the defense that you didn't mean the words to be offensive. The position that you don't think African Americans should be offended by the word ni***er means absolutely nothing, and is in contrast with reality.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
This is an absurd and immature response. This is a classic example of blaming the victim. It's not YOUR fault that you said something hurtful, it's THEIR fault for being hurt.
I'm not going to say that telling a racist joke makes you a racist. The traditional construct of racism, on an individual scale by which you honestly believe one race inferior to another, is no longer terribly relevant. Racism is an institutional, cultural, very subtle thing. But when you tell a victim that it's their own fault for being hurt by what you said, you are contributing to racism. Nobody is saying you are racist, but you are contributing to racism. Do you understand?
You misunderstand. It's nobody's "fault." The fact of the matter, here, is that there is very little immoral about casually uttering the word nigger. If someone is offended by it, you might be only incidentally related to the hurt, because they have somehow misconstrued your casual utterance as a personal attack on them/their ethnicity, even though you did not intend it to be so. I am, however, saying that a mature, self-confident person is much less likely to feel substantially hurt by simply hearing a word, especially if it isn't directed at them. And judging by the posts from actual black people in this thread & numerous black celebrities, this seems to be the case.
No, it's actually your fault. When you say the word n----, you are saying a word which, to black people, coming from white people, means "inferior person who is inferior because he is black, and by the way, I'm coming for you." You hate accepting blame, but the only way you will ever understand someone else's life is by allowing that you might have been wrong in your actions.
Thanks for the armchair psychology. Maybe black people who are offended by this (which isn't all black people, btw, so your claim is false right from the get-go) should take a step back and realize that someone who is angry isn't exactly coherent.
There's nothing "wrong" about making a racist joke, except in the most trivial of ways.
On March 10 2012 02:01 Djzapz wrote: I maintain that you people gave orb the electric chair to soothe your conscience, and should start taking a person's word for what they mean and not what they remind you of.
On March 10 2012 02:00 Zaros wrote:
On March 10 2012 01:59 sereniity wrote:
On March 10 2012 01:40 Zaros wrote: [quote]
yes he does and so do I, why is any homophobic language or racist language at all acceptable especially in the public eye, when people look up to people who they see in these casts especially kids.
If we look at it like that... do you mean that a persons head looks like a dick if you call him a dickhead?
Can't believe people think it's so black and white.
we arent talking about general insults its fine to call someone and idiot or a prick they dont put down minorities, calling someone a faggot is saying its bad to be gay and calling someone a nigger is saying its bad to be black which is homophobia and racism how is that acceptable?
Calling someone a cunt is saying it's bad to be a vagina?
That is actually literally what you are saying when you say that to someone. I'm not usually of the opinion that calling someone a cunt is outright sexist (some people do, though) because it's calling somebody a genital (which can be replaced with a male genital) rather than the entirety of a woman, but yes..when you call someone a cunt you're saying it's bad to be a cunt. You don't think it's bad to be a cunt? That's why it's an insult - literally. And not literally in terms of using the term as hyperbole, I mean literally as in taking words in their most true sense without metaphor.
That's just the problem with having intellectual discourse about racism/homophobia/sexism, you literally do not understand the words you use in the first place and what they mean - let alone any racial/homophobic/sexist overtones those words might have.
Why the hell do you care about words literally mean rather than the intention behind those words?
Because you asked a really fucking stupid question. "Am I saying it's bad to be a cunt when I call someone a cunt?". Not going to bother to respond to the rest. Have a good one, dude.
Don't be so childish. The answer is no. I'm calling someone a cunt because it's part of a list of "bad words".
You're not above me, you don't get to decide what my words mean.
Man I'm going to go make a sandwich right now.
Wait, that doesn't make any sense in context to responding to your post? Here's what I actually said if you understood my intentions:
There is a dictionary for that, and you are correct! I did not write the dictionary.
Yeah latch onto a dictionary with very finite and incomplete definitions of words which oftentimes don't take into consideration the world's conjuncture which is what truly defines us. Remain a shallow individual.
In no way is it worth my time to dismantle why you defining the words 'tossing' and 'salad' (making an obvious reference to the sexual term which would be defined separately from both, with colloquial context involved, much like how when you call someone a racist slur there is colloquial context involved) somehow justifies or changes anything you've said - maybe I should've used the term colloquially instead of literally back there to prevent silly things like this cropping up.
If being a 'shallow individual' means I try to do my best to understand the language I use, the context it is used in, and how it might hurt other people whether directly or indirectly - and try to have people think about it on their own, whether they disagree with me or not, then hey man, I'm proud to be a shallow individual.
You can be proud of whatever you are, I don't know you and won't pretend to. :shrug:
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis.
That's pretty damn ridiculous.
That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no?
That's not even close to being similar to the Orb situation. Orb explicitly made certain comments that have racial undertones, and whether or not they're aimed at a black persn is irrelevant. As someone who's worked with/ taught/ tutored students who have a variety of mental disabilities, I don't see a way this could be blown out of proportion to the level of Orb's remarks. Artosis is acting silly and overly happy. He's bouncing around like a little kid. If you think that this should be offensive because mentally deficient people apparently act this way on a regular basis, I think you don't have a good handle on what the difference is between acting like a kid and having a handicap.
What's next: you think giggling casters should be banned because you once heard a blind kid laugh, and so therefore it's offensive towards the blind? Someone needs to post the video of Day[9] laughing at himself laughing, because that's clearly offensive towards those of us who are visually impaired. Jesus.
There's no slippery slope here. Racism and slander should be removed. Being silly, happy, and energetic: That can stay.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing: everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
Edit; Need to find the exact time on this video, the rest is kinda NSFW
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
They can never be trivial because they are still honestly hurtful to the people who they were originally designed to hurt. That's it. That's all. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's not the "fun police" trying to get offended. It's that when you say things like that, you hurt people. End of story. That's all. It doesn't mean you're racist or homophobic or meant the words in that way, but it doesn't matter what you meant. It matters what you said.
Saying it doesn't matter how I mean what I say automatically drains you of any ability to judge my character, since intent is the most intimate account of character.
Again, I understand that people are hurt by these words, and on some level I understand why they are hurt by them, but these people are still to some degree seeing daggers in empty hands when they throw a tantrum every time an everyman says a racial slur. Perhaps they should consider their own self esteem if such a casual remark can cause such trauma. Yeah, I'm not blaming them for it, because I understand how psychological trauma can work, but neither can I really say that it makes sense to punish someone for saying these words, just like punishing someone for saying the word rape around a rape victim is ill-advised but not punishable.
Might want to work on your reading comprehension skills. He didn't judge your character, in fact a central part of his argument was that it's the practical effects of your statements that matter, not your intent.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
They can never be trivial because they are still honestly hurtful to the people who they were originally designed to hurt. That's it. That's all. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's not the "fun police" trying to get offended. It's that when you say things like that, you hurt people. End of story. That's all. It doesn't mean you're racist or homophobic or meant the words in that way, but it doesn't matter what you meant. It matters what you said.
Saying it doesn't matter how I mean what I say automatically drains you of any ability to judge my character, since intent is the most intimate account of character.
Again, I understand that people are hurt by these words, and on some level I understand why they are hurt by them, but these people are still to some degree seeing daggers in empty hands when they throw a tantrum every time an everyman says a racial slur. Perhaps they should consider their own self esteem if such a casual remark can cause such trauma. Yeah, I'm not blaming them for it, because I understand how psychological trauma can work, but neither can I really say that it makes sense to punish someone for saying these words, just like punishing someone for saying the word rape around a rape victim is ill-advised but not punishable.
Might want to work on your reading comprehension skills. He didn't judge your character, in fact a central part of his argument was that it's the practical effects of your statements that matter, not your intent.
Then his moral theory is garbage. What matters is the person behind the words.
Don't get me wrong: spouting racist/sexist terms at every turn says a lot about you as a person. Saying them in a state of rage or as an obvious joke? Not so much.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
When someone uses the phrase "bleeding-heart liberal" or "commie," even though I'm both of these things, I'm not offended, and I certainly don't demand that they use less demeaning terms. There's a huge amount of hatred for communism in certain parts of the USA, and in the western world in general. Nevertheless, I'm confident enough in my own personal beliefs to not be offended when someone flames communism, despite my close identification with it. Why should I be offended? Unless the person is referring to me, what's the big deal? Unless they say something pointed like "all communists are fools," I have no real reason to be upset. If someone is mad and calls someone a "commie" or a "hippie" or a "socialist" or whatever, I don't care, because I understand that they're just hyperbole and expressions of anger. Simple as that.
The word "faggot" has essentially nothing to do with gay marriage being illegal in the USA, and as someone who vehemently supports the rights of gays, I take offense to the implication that I'm somehow contributing to bigotry by using a word when I'm mad.
Here's the thing everything you said about YOU doesn't matter at all - I'm guessing, and I'm 99% sure that I'm right, that you've never been in physical danger because you were a liberal or a communist. You have never had to hide your liberalism from your parents for fear they might disown you, or from your friends for fear of what might happen to you.
If you're not going to try to understand what it's like growing up gay in the United States, all I can do is give you this video and hope that the comedians in this video explain it more eloquently than I can.
God I hate this ridiculous appeal to emotion. If you don't have an argument aside from special pleading, don't make one. Personal experiences grant you sympathy, not immunity.
1. Please remove the video from the quote, it's NSFW until I find the right time to start it at. This is not about me, but the standards on the forum. It was my mistake, and I apologize.
2. Emotions are important. People who have grown up in fear of who they are because of the people around them are deserving of some special consideration, since it's people who think like you do (not you, but with the same lines of thought - other people's emotions shouldn't impact my decision making) who are the cause of it in the first place. That's all I can say. I'm not saying that you are the cause of things like what the play The Laramie Project describe. Not at all. You are probably a good person who respects everyone, and I don't say that sarcastically, I do mean it. But the attitude of, "other people's emotions shouldn't impact me, I should be able to say whatever I want, even if it's hurtful," that doesn't help.
On March 10 2012 02:47 Paperplane wrote: If you're a public figure you gotta be so fucking careful what you say every single day. Mess up and shit will hit the proverbial fan.
This is important. You are held to a higher standard if you're a public figure representing a team, sponsors, television network, etc. I'm not really surprised or dismayed that this action was taken. I'm waiting to see if anything else happens now since one organization seems to have drawn the line.
I don't think Orb meant anything malicious towards black people with those comments, but when you're representing sponsors and your organization, it's probably best to cut that kind of shit out. I wonder what will happen the next time Idra calls someone a faggot. That's when we'll see what EG and Alex Garfield is really made out of. It's easy to cut ties with someone like Orb, but how will they discipline Idra when he inevitibaly crosses the line they've drawn?
EPT
