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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
I just don't get why that word gets the attention it does.
If I call someone a fuckin retard or fucking moron, I'm doing the same thing to people who who suffer from a psychological disorder...more specifically their IQ range. Yet it's perfectly fucking acceptable.
However, you use the N or F word these days you get raked over the coals for it.
Whats the difference? Activist groups?
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On March 10 2012 02:07 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:01 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:47 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:44 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:42 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all?
You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad. Hope you grow up, kiddo. He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest. Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo. I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that? Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez... I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use. Well stated. The claim that words are just words ignores the fact that communication is action. And all this discussion of individual intent holds not water. While courts attempt to measure the intent of the prosecuted, in our day-to-day community interactions, we have to account for the effects of our actions EVEN IF THOSE EFFECTS WERE NOT INTENDED. Sensitivity and respect for others in a community is founded in recognizing that our actions (including our use of words) are never performed in an individual vacuum. People concerned that this is simple PC-politics are failing to recognize a much more complicated politics of the individual underlying this discussion. Thee notion that one can engage in any action is a purely individualistic fashion is a myth--in the U.S., it's bound up with the broader myth of liberal individualism. And it smacks, in this forum, of youthful entitlement and ignorance.
thank you skatbone. dead on
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On March 10 2012 02:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:22 Harrad wrote:On March 10 2012 02:14 Hinanawi wrote:
Back in 2003, a group of well-known Counter-Strike players (mostly White and Asian) decided that it would be fun to masquerade as an African-American Counter-Strike team. They created fake names, used fake profile pictures, and proceeded to compete in an entire season of league play while pretending to be African-American. When the players were finally exposed, the Counter-Strike community reacted to the incident with more amusement than anything else, and I - an avid member of the CS community at that time - was shocked and offended.
Stopped reading there. That's funny as shit and you know it. It would be equally funny if a bunch of black guys parodied the super nerdy white and asian guy stereotype (36.33%, repeating of course...) in a game. The Fun Police have arrived, and they have bachelor's degrees in getting offended. Why and how exactly is it fun? Think about it. If people like you were in charge, we would still be living in the stone age, as you represent a very primitive, backward point of view. Feel free to prove this stupidity. Virtually everyone uses bad words (whether they're part of whatever arbitrary list you've decided constitutes the most offensive ones is impossible to say). Humans have moved forward. Afaik, we were more backward when it was illegal to say bad things to certain people (e.g. flaming the gov't).
True, you should be free to say whatever you want in an non-public environment in which you represent no one but yourself. But if you are part of an organization that is opposed to such racial slurs and do use those words in public (e.g. on a stream) don't be surprised when stuff like this happens.
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On March 10 2012 02:30 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 02:24 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 02:18 ZackAttack wrote:The Fun Police have arrived, and they have bachelor's degrees in getting offended. I lol'd really really hard. I actually fell out of my chair, this is so spot on. Please don't play into our society's already regrettable anti-intellectualism. I'm not "offended," and I would suspect that my fellow bachelors (haha) aren't either. I do however feel that it's my dharma AS an intellectual to make some small effort to fight against the sophomoric entitlement and bad philosophy in this thread. As a side note, in the academic community I am regularly on the other side of this debate, so please don't think I (and those also advocating this position) are some sort of dogmatic super PC fun police, because I'm not. I've been yelled at by way too many feminists, postcolonialists, and queer studies majors for that to be the case. I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations. What's more, I think you'd be laughed out of class if you tried to suggest, as Klondikebar did, that people who use the word "faggot" are actually homophobes, as if those casually using the word sit in the same category as the people executing gays in the Middle East. The issue is not a moral one. You do not understand my position. Nobody is listening to what I am saying here; I think tonight I will write a blog explaining in more detail. Please look for this. I will try to walk through some theory 101 and explain is some more detail why this issue is important.
If it's not a moral issue, then how can anyone really claim that Orb did anything wrong? :O
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because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
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So this happened before he worked for EG? That seems pretty stupid to me. You excuse Idra's actions by saying that you talked to him and that he no longer does it but won't give that same option to Orb. Is Idra special or do you just find racism more offensive than using homophobic language. The term fag is equally offensive yet I don't see Idra getting cut from the roster for his past actions.
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On March 10 2012 02:30 DrowSwordsman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:28 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 02:25 DrowSwordsman wrote:On March 10 2012 02:22 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 02:20 DrowSwordsman wrote:On March 10 2012 02:18 Djzapz wrote:On March 10 2012 02:09 DrowSwordsman wrote:On March 10 2012 02:01 Djzapz wrote:I maintain that you people gave orb the electric chair to soothe your conscience, and should start taking a person's word for what they mean and not what they remind you of. On March 10 2012 02:00 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:59 sereniity wrote:
[quote]
If we look at it like that... do you mean that a persons head looks like a dick if you call him a dickhead?
Can't believe people think it's so black and white. we arent talking about general insults its fine to call someone and idiot or a prick they dont put down minorities, calling someone a faggot is saying its bad to be gay and calling someone a nigger is saying its bad to be black which is homophobia and racism how is that acceptable? Calling someone a cunt is saying it's bad to be a vagina? That is actually literally what you are saying when you say that to someone. I'm not usually of the opinion that calling someone a cunt is outright sexist (some people do, though) because it's calling somebody a genital (which can be replaced with a male genital) rather than the entirety of a woman, but yes..when you call someone a cunt you're saying it's bad to be a cunt. You don't think it's bad to be a cunt? That's why it's an insult - literally. And not literally in terms of using the term as hyperbole, I mean literally as in taking words in their most true sense without metaphor. That's just the problem with having intellectual discourse about racism/homophobia/sexism, you literally do not understand the words you use in the first place and what they mean - let alone any racial/homophobic/sexist overtones those words might have. Why the hell do you care about words literally mean rather than the intention behind those words? Because you asked a really fucking stupid question. "Am I saying it's bad to be a cunt when I call someone a cunt?". Not going to bother to respond to the rest. Have a good one, dude. Don't be so childish. The answer is no. I'm calling someone a cunt because it's part of a list of "bad words". You're not above me, you don't get to decide what my words mean. Man I'm going to go make a sandwich right now. Wait, that doesn't make any sense in context to responding to your post? Here's what I actually said if you understood my intentions: There is a dictionary for that, and you are correct! I did not write the dictionary. Yeah latch onto a dictionary with very finite and incomplete definitions of words which oftentimes don't take into consideration the world's conjuncture which is what truly defines us. Remain a shallow individual. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tossinghttp://www.thefreedictionary.com/salad Here is one for you as well! http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/facetiousI was actually trying to have a joke with you. Relax, have a good one.
Ok 
I liked what I did with
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Tossing
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/salad
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On March 10 2012 02:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:30 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 02:24 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 02:18 ZackAttack wrote:The Fun Police have arrived, and they have bachelor's degrees in getting offended. I lol'd really really hard. I actually fell out of my chair, this is so spot on. Please don't play into our society's already regrettable anti-intellectualism. I'm not "offended," and I would suspect that my fellow bachelors (haha) aren't either. I do however feel that it's my dharma AS an intellectual to make some small effort to fight against the sophomoric entitlement and bad philosophy in this thread. As a side note, in the academic community I am regularly on the other side of this debate, so please don't think I (and those also advocating this position) are some sort of dogmatic super PC fun police, because I'm not. I've been yelled at by way too many feminists, postcolonialists, and queer studies majors for that to be the case. I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations. What's more, I think you'd be laughed out of class if you tried to suggest, as Klondikebar did, that people who use the word "faggot" are actually homophobes, as if those casually using the word sit in the same category as the people executing gays in the Middle East. The issue is not a moral one. You do not understand my position. Nobody is listening to what I am saying here; I think tonight I will write a blog explaining in more detail. Please look for this. I will try to walk through some theory 101 and explain is some more detail why this issue is important. If it's not a moral issue, then how can anyone really claim that Orb did anything wrong? :O
I don't care about orb, even a little bit. I care about raising the level of sociopolitical consciousness in our popular discourse.
edit: I should say that the only feelings I have about orb are that I feel sorry for him. I hope he and all the rest of us learn a lesson from this.
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On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote:
I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
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On March 10 2012 01:38 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. That's a terrible analogy, so easy to contradict. 'Rape' has a figurative meaning, 'nigger' does not.
No it has a figurative meaning you simply appear to be ignorant of it, willfully or otherwise.
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On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote:
because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
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It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
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On March 10 2012 02:33 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote:
I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations. I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult). It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
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why is EG getting bashed for firing a stupid kid who rages, spits out racial slurs and then lie about it? does that really sound like a good employee to you people? and im truly amazed by the people who think just because its the internet you can say anything you want and get away with it.
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On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote:
It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Thank you.
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On March 10 2012 02:34 battyone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote:
because everyone is looking for someone to crucify? BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade. *EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
You need to have a pretty wild imagination to think that that video depicts crossing any line, or that it's wrong to want push people like Katu and Orb to the fringes of the industry.
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On March 10 2012 02:35 aintz wrote:
why is EG getting bashed for firing a stupid kid who rages, spits out racial slurs and then lie about it? does that really sound like a good employee to you people? and im truly amazed by the people who think just because its the internet you can say anything you want and get away with it.
Becuase he didn't say it while he was employed by them, he was originally warned and then someone dug something a year+ old up and he got fired. The fact that people went straight to the sponsors and a lot of us realize this was a money play and had nothing to do with racism, character, or anything else despite how Alex (masterfully) spun the situation. A lot of us are disgusted by the fact that if this was a more well known/liked person then there would not have been a problem in the first place, because popularity can get you off scott free in this community.
*EDIT -- at zorkmind, it's okay to act like you're retarded for a laugh? Is it just that the group being made fun of wouldn't recognize it? Does that make it okay?
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On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote:
It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
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Personally I find Alexander Garfield's "holier-than-thou"-attitude alot more repulsive than the n-word used in random raging. It strikes me as a suppression technique more than anything else, elevating your own high standards above simpletons.
Glad I'm not subject to a type like you.
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EPT
