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On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
They can never be trivial because they are still honestly hurtful to the people who they were originally designed to hurt. That's it. That's all. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's not the "fun police" trying to get offended. It's that when you say things like that, you hurt people. End of story. That's all. It doesn't mean you're racist or homophobic or meant the words in that way, but it doesn't matter what you meant. It matters what you said.
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
It depends entirely on your political beliefs. Some people think that by co-opting the word, you disempower it and somehow this magically makes racism 'disappear'. Others believe that by trivializing the word, you're just trivializing racism and whitewashing it by pretending it doesn't exist.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
Slippery slope? Being mad at slander and then racism? Oh no, what next! (Oh wait, you showed it: excitement -_____- ) We're pretty chill most of the time. What you posted is absurd.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
Anyone who is offended by anything is so because of their own emotional baggage and own faults? Everyone should be able to say whatever they want to whomever they want with no consequences, and there is no reason to ever be offended? That's an extraordinarily closed minded attitude to have.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
This is an absurd and immature response. This is a classic example of blaming the victim. It's not YOUR fault that you said something hurtful, it's THEIR fault for being hurt.
I'm not going to say that telling a racist joke makes you a racist. The traditional construct of racism, on an individual scale by which you honestly believe one race inferior to another, is no longer terribly relevant. Racism is an institutional, cultural, very subtle thing. But when you tell a victim that it's their own fault for being hurt by what you said, you are contributing to racism. Nobody is saying you are racist, but you are contributing to racism. Do you understand?
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
They can never be trivial because they are still honestly hurtful to the people who they were originally designed to hurt. That's it. That's all. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's not the "fun police" trying to get offended. It's that when you say things like that, you hurt people. End of story. That's all. It doesn't mean you're racist or homophobic or meant the words in that way, but it doesn't matter what you meant. It matters what you said.
Saying it doesn't matter how I mean what I say automatically drains you of any ability to judge my character, since intent is the most intimate account of character.
Again, I understand that people are hurt by these words, and on some level I understand why they are hurt by them, but these people are still to some degree seeing daggers in empty hands when they throw a tantrum every time an everyman says a racial slur. Perhaps they should consider their own self esteem if such a casual remark can cause such trauma. Yeah, I'm not blaming them for it, because I understand how psychological trauma can work, but neither can I really say that it makes sense to punish someone for saying these words, just like punishing someone for saying the word rape around a rape victim is ill-advised but not punishable.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
The sad reality is that racism is deeply ingrained in our western society, to the point where the general public has developed an limited acceptance of it. That is very dangerous imo. Thats why its important for people like garfield to actively stand up against such discrimination in his organization and make an example "for the greater good".
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, "you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!"
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
BE OFFENDED, NOTHING HAPPENS.
Same thing. Why should YOU have to change your behavior just because it is harmful to somebody else? YOU know you don't mean it to be harmful.
When you tell a gay man he shouldn't take offense to the word "faggot" being spoken in his presence, that is literally the epitome of not understanding what it's like to be gay in this country.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
Appeal to emotion. You're basically saying, you people say we're overly sensitive, but look at what it's like being a victimized minority!
I don't victimize anyone. People like to be victimized for some reason, but they're putting this on themselves. I mean no harm when I call my friends faggots, and homosexuals shouldn't take offense - if they do, well it's their right to be offended.
yes tht may be relevant to being called a moron or a dick head etc its not relevant to racial and especially homophobic slurs, people dont kill themselves from being called a dick head or a moron all the time they do kill themselves for being called a faggot all the time, i think 6% of all suicides are for LGBT issues in the UK.
Homophobic and racial hate crime is still a big issue in the liberal parts of the world and in the non liberal parts of the world you can be killed for being gay or have life inprisonment. Everyone who uses those words is trivialising homophobia and racism which ive said is completely unacceptable.
On March 10 2012 02:34 Vega62a wrote: It makes me very sad to read all these comments saying, "Well, I say n----/f---- all the time, but I know I'm not racist or homophobic, so clearly everyone else is just overly sensitive." Most of these people have no idea what it's like growing up as a victimized minority, and in reality they would rather place the fault with others and stay bound up within their own context. It is much easier to be lazy and accuse others of not understanding you than to become thoughtful and understand that your actions may have been hurting others your whole life.
As I've said many times, if you are a victimized minority, it is understandable if you get hurt, but it is nevertheless a product of emotional baggage, not reason, and thus no tangible fault lies with the person who presumably offended you, because you do not possess sufficient information to assert that they don't respect you. That's why people like KB are constructing ridiculous frameworks whereby telling a racist joke somehow turns you into a Klan member.
This is an absurd and immature response. This is a classic example of blaming the victim. It's not YOUR fault that you said something hurtful, it's THEIR fault for being hurt.
I'm not going to say that telling a racist joke makes you a racist. The traditional construct of racism, on an individual scale by which you honestly believe one race inferior to another, is no longer terribly relevant. Racism is an institutional, cultural, very subtle thing. But when you tell a victim that it's their own fault for being hurt by what you said, you are contributing to racism. Nobody is saying you are racist, but you are contributing to racism. Do you understand?
You misunderstand. It's nobody's "fault." The fact of the matter, here, is that there is very little immoral about casually uttering the word nigger. If someone is offended by it, you might be only incidentally related to the hurt, because they have somehow misconstrued your casual utterance as a personal attack on them/their ethnicity, even though you did not intend it to be so. I am, however, saying that a mature, self-confident person is much less likely to feel substantially hurt by simply hearing a word, especially if it isn't directed at them. And judging by the posts from actual black people in this thread & numerous black celebrities, this seems to be the case.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
On March 10 2012 02:27 Shiori wrote: I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next guy, but I don't think any reasonable ethical philosophy could establish that using offensive words (minus bigoted intent) in a state of anger (i.e. duress) is anything more than the most trivial of moral violations.
I don't consider it Orb racist, but in the manner which he nigger as insult, does imply that blacks are inferior (or else it has no value as an insult).
It's not the end of days, but it's not 'trivial,' the way saying motherfucker or shithead in duress is trivial.
If you ask me, it should be trivial. The people in this thread (not all of them, but the ones like the OP) are the reason why it can never be trivial.
They can never be trivial because they are still honestly hurtful to the people who they were originally designed to hurt. That's it. That's all. It's nothing more complicated than that. It's not the "fun police" trying to get offended. It's that when you say things like that, you hurt people. End of story. That's all. It doesn't mean you're racist or homophobic or meant the words in that way, but it doesn't matter what you meant. It matters what you said.
Saying it doesn't matter how I mean what I say automatically drains you of any ability to judge my character, since intent is the most intimate account of character.
Again, I understand that people are hurt by these words, and on some level I understand why they are hurt by them, but these people are still to some degree seeing daggers in empty hands when they throw a tantrum every time an everyman says a racial slur. Perhaps they should consider their own self esteem if such a casual remark can cause such trauma. Yeah, I'm not blaming them for it, because I understand how psychological trauma can work, but neither can I really say that it makes sense to punish someone for saying these words, just like punishing someone for saying the word rape around a rape victim is ill-advised but not punishable.
I can only reply to posts like this so much more. You're basically telling people who have grown up in an atmosphere of, at best, derision, and at worst open hostility, that they shouldn't be so sensitive to the words that may have been SHOUTED at them at the worst points in their lives. You're saying that they should do that incredibly difficult, unfair thing, rather than you adjusting your language a little bit.
On March 10 2012 02:32 MrTortoise wrote: because everyone is looking for someone to crucify?
BINGO! Honestly Katu was the first taste of blood, and this is the second. We've started down a very slippery slope, especially when you consider that some major casters have crossed the line before. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyv0c4JU4-M for example). Popularity will let you get away with stuff, but if you're lesser liked or lesser known get ready for the pain parade.
*EDIT -- noob question -- any way I can get youtube videos to not auto-embed. I think it looks horrible in this context. :/
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this particular video clip. Is excitement banned now?
And Katu repeatedly slandering a pro-gamer during a live cast and acting like a complete jackass, despite his co-caster trying to get him to stop several times... he deserved everything he got. Ridiculously unprofessional.
There is something wrong with it, but you're biased to see it as something, whereas someone else could take it in the most extreme and offensive way...sorta like what Orb did? Kinda proving my point here a bit. Take it out of context, show it to the mother of a kid with autism or some other mental deficency, and see how THEY take it.
So... don't tell someone that he's just excited, and tell them instead that he's purposely trying to offend a kid with a mental deficiency?
Oh okay, well then in that case: Fire Artosis.
That's pretty damn ridiculous.
That's my point. I picked something that none of us would find offensive but could still be taken and blown up the same way the Orb situation was. It is pretty damn ridiculous, no?
EPT
