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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:45 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this Your "community" is full of bigots. Believe it or not, you are not the "greater group." You are a tiny tiny group of small minded people that is, thank god, slowly fading into obscurity. we are bigots HOW exactly? what is the bigoted action we are taking here? where is the discrimination? where is the abuse? you whole arguement comes down to "you should be sensitive to my perception of that particular word - it upsets me so please dont use it". okay fine. but using it doesnt make me a racist, it just makes me insensitive to your emotional feelings directly with regards to me using that particular word. as far as im concerned, in that case, if im going to call you an asshole for cheesing me, ill just as well call you a faggot. makes no difference to me. and in reality, makes no difference to how i am towards blacks or gays. If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive. I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Pretty sure that when I say someone is a "faggot" I'm not intending to make a statement about homosexuals. I'm just calling them a name, like "retard" or "idiot" or anything else. Am I really insulting the collective group of mentally handicapped people when I call someone an idiot, even though way back when that's what being an idiot actually referred to?
Please, though, continue making baseless attacks on my character on the basis of what sorts of insults I use. I eagerly await the evidence you amass to demonstrate that I'm a homophobe, given that everywhere and always I have gone out of my way to support homosexual rights.
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On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
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On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:45 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this Your "community" is full of bigots. Believe it or not, you are not the "greater group." You are a tiny tiny group of small minded people that is, thank god, slowly fading into obscurity. we are bigots HOW exactly? what is the bigoted action we are taking here? where is the discrimination? where is the abuse? you whole arguement comes down to "you should be sensitive to my perception of that particular word - it upsets me so please dont use it". okay fine. but using it doesnt make me a racist, it just makes me insensitive to your emotional feelings directly with regards to me using that particular word. as far as im concerned, in that case, if im going to call you an asshole for cheesing me, ill just as well call you a faggot. makes no difference to me. and in reality, makes no difference to how i am towards blacks or gays. If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive. I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
its shocking that you think you would have to explain to someone that they think less of homosexuals , surely they would know if they did?!
insults are only insults because they are insulting TO another person - NOT because they are insulting to YOU (the "insulter"). whether or not something is insulting to ME doesnt matter one little bit. i could have the limpest wrists in town but if i thought calling another guy a fag would piss him off then i would say exactly that if i wanted to hurt his feelings.
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I find it very amusing (or insane) how one word always seems to cause so much controversy. Idra can call someone a faggot on his stream, and pretty much daily, and not even get a stern warning from his CEO. However, when someone brings out the N word, even as little as one time, the world flips shit and demands reparation, punishment, and general dismay to the party who said it.
Im not in any way agreeing with Orb having said it, all I'm implying is that he didnt say it during any EG event, he didnt say it to any of their affiliates, it wasnt captured on camera as far as a I know, and above all else - ITS JUST A WORD.
The reason that its still considered such a nasty word is becuase so many people cling to the raging entitlement that they believe comes with being called a nigger. Shrug it off guys, let the word die. And for anyone of any color who still calls their homeboys "niggas", you only further purpetuate the negative connotation of both words and continue to enforce its use as a racial slur.
I don't agree with Orb getting fired for saying something that wasnt on camera, not at an EG event, and not even at an event in any way affiliated with EG. I do however agree that the CEO should be able to fire someone for this type of thing but Alex's actions would not have been my own. Now that it is public though I guess EG has to save face. Not sure what the best mode of punishment would have been... GL to all involved.
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From an outsiders perspective I think that Alex Garfield did everything right and I found his explanation, also with regard to his background, absolutely authentic. However, regardless of whether EG would have wanted to or not, they really had no choice regarding the dismissal of Orb.
And that is where I somewhat disagree with Alex Garfield's statement regarding the maturity of the SC2 community, that I think he overestimates by quite a large margin. The uproar of a part of the community and with that the amount of people contacting the sponsors of EG, created a situation where firing Orb was the ONLY damage-reducing option. And regarding the motives of the majority of those individuals one should not make the mistake and assume that they wanted to fight racism. Those people, IMO, went out of their way to damage the reputation of Team Evil Geniuses and Orb himself - while at least the former is absolutely undeserved. Such behavior is absolutely disgusting to me because those doing things like that (running to the sponsors to complain, not getting in contact with the management of the team first etc.) can and will always hide behind the excuse that they defended "core values" and "fought racism" while what they actually wanted to achieve is something completely else.
I hope those people (you know who you are) have never done something in their lives that might be interpreted by others as immoral. Because your peers will run you down, I promise.
One last thing. Nothing wrong with bringing problematic actions (saying the n-word in a public stream) of an individual to the attention of those that should know about them (management of EG). The people that had the sense to do exactly that should not feel criticized by my post. The people that did otherwise demonstrated with their behavior that their true intentions did not lie in solving this problem in the calmest and most sensible way possible, but that they just wanted to make a splash or had ill intentions regarding one of the involved parties. Well, either that, or they are incredibly stupid.
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It's harder to be the CEO of EG then the president of the USA.. omg..
I mean this shit pops up, everybody demands EG to do something, people even complain to EG's sponsors and now that they act on it and fire Orb, people are complaining they did?
How come everything that involves EG gets to this point? why are they so hated?
Because of idra? Puma? Huk? why do people complain about everything EG related and all others get a free pass? bah
And then people comment on why teams, players and sponsors can't get this ship(e-sports) of the ground.. It won't get anywhere if projects, people, teams, sponsors are put on the line everytime someone makes a mistake..
They prepare a team league with 10.000$ for us fans, add a good and young caster for the job and a few days later because of a stupid comment made to some random guy, where we even don't have access to what the other guy said first, everything is put on hold and on the line. This league is now a pile of shit, a PR shitstorm and the sponsors must be thinking WTF did i get myself into..
I just hope they don't drop SC2 and EG for this mess and i hope people are proud for fucking up the big racist and founder of the KKK "Mr. Orb" the most dangerous racist ever to be presented online.. Yeah like that skinny white nerd would ever harm or do anything to anyone..
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Ottersareneat, This was brilliant. You guys absolutely took the right course of action and I will be contacting sponsors to let them know my support!
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On March 09 2012 22:24 MrTortoise wrote:
I use the word gay all the time, i am not homophobic. Ive been using the word since before i know what it meant. I'm not defending the use of the word but YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANT FOR HIM. Until you can answer that you have no idea if he is racist or not.
The problem isn't whether or not he is a racist, the problem is that he said a racist thing. He is either 1) a racist - which is bad for obvious reasons or 2) isn't a racist and therefore should know better.
Frankly, if you aren't a racist, you should know that you shouldn't go around using that word casually. Just like you, who is not a homophobe, should really make it a priority to stop calling things "gay." I used the word gay when I was a stupid kid, and then I learned better and stopped. If you learned better and HAVEN'T stopped, that is still on you (or Orb in this case).
Sometimes I forget how young the gaming community is and maybe I'm starting to see a generational thing here (and I'm not even that old!).
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On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
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On March 10 2012 00:46 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:45 Kickboxer wrote:
I miss the part where Orb called the person african american. hahahaha , ironically , saying that would make it appear MORE racist than actually calling a person nigger
Most certainly since nigger, when spoken outside of actually racist context, is not a racist word. Feel free to ask Dr. Dre.
You see, Orb was not implying that the person on the other side of the screen was african american and that this was something demeaning. How that is difficult to understand is beyond me. I hope you do know that the original meaning of "gay" is "happy". According to your philosophy, it still is. So calling people gay is, and forever will remain, a compliment.
PC radicals have no idea how language actually works. But they sure know how to get someone fired I guess.
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On March 10 2012 00:47 FFGenerations wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:45 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 00:40 Lunatics wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets When does respecting others ever not matter? And yes, when you use those words you ARE a bigot because you think there is something intrinsically bad about being black or being gay and therefore those words are insults. And no I'm not trolling, you don't get to attribute your own meaning to words. They have objective meaning. How can you say so positively with such uncertanty that because someone used a specific word in some instance somewhere, that you know 100% how they think and act and why they said it. That's complete bullshit. Don't be obtuse. The word Orb used is not generally ambiguous, and the context was clear. Moreover, his explanation was that he chose it because of its offensive connotations. BECAUSE it is an effective way to attack someone, NOT because Orb is racist
What distinction are you drawing? I think you should familiarize yourself with the "no true scostman" fallacy. If you use racial slurs to injure others, you're engaging in core racist activity. If you self-define as "not racist," then you should be aware that most people will disagree and find your explanation extremely unconvincing (if not downright bizarre and hypocritical).
Sure, I can eat meat and claim to be a "vegetarian." It may even be true in some sense. But I would bear the burden of convincing others, and I certainly shouldn't be upset when others are skeptical of my claim. Do you understand now?
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so does this thread mean if we get enough people to complain to egs sponsors they have to fire idra?
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On March 10 2012 00:54 threshy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:47 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:45 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 00:40 Lunatics wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets When does respecting others ever not matter? And yes, when you use those words you ARE a bigot because you think there is something intrinsically bad about being black or being gay and therefore those words are insults. And no I'm not trolling, you don't get to attribute your own meaning to words. They have objective meaning. How can you say so positively with such uncertanty that because someone used a specific word in some instance somewhere, that you know 100% how they think and act and why they said it. That's complete bullshit. Don't be obtuse. The word Orb used is not generally ambiguous, and the context was clear. Moreover, his explanation was that he chose it because of its offensive connotations. BECAUSE it is an effective way to attack someone, NOT because Orb is racist What distinction are you drawing? I think you should familiarize yourself with the "no true scostman" fallacy. If you use racial slurs to injure others, you're engaging in core racist activity. If you self-define as "not racist," then you should be aware that most people will disagree and find your explanation extremely unconvincing (if not downright bizarre and hypocritical). Sure, I can eat meat and claim to be a "vegetarian." It may even be true in some sense. But I would bear the burden of convincing others, and I certainly shouldn't be upset when others are skeptical of my claim. Do you understand now?
Using the word nigger is not a core racist activity, and your argument is therefore circular (another logical fallacy). You seem to be arguing that since all racists use the word nigger, all people that use the word nigger are racists. Doesn't follow.
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It sounds like a vocal minority found a way to hit EG where it could potentially hurt, with the sponsors...all for what? To avenge some off-hand remark made by Orb, a one-time special event caster, and the off-hand remark wasn't even made during an EG event?!
Wow, I'm sorry that it comes to this in this overly-PC age....I don't think hardly anyone in the community was aware of these comments and I doubt Orb is truly a racist, even if he made a comment in bad taste during a moment of carelessness... I still don't know what exactly was said, in what context, where, when, etc.......EG's response is professional and really the only thing they could do in an age where political correctness dominates all...to the point of absurdity.
Sometimes people slip up and say things they don't mean...blacks, gays, whites, everyone does it....they should all be allowed to apologize and move on without being burned at the stake of Political correctness/public opinion....unless it is a common thing they do.
Now people will troll teams they don't like by going after their sponsors....another thing that could kill esports!!
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On March 10 2012 00:53 Kickboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:46 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:45 Kickboxer wrote:
I miss the part where Orb called the person african american. hahahaha , ironically , saying that would make it appear MORE racist than actually calling a person nigger Most certainly since nigger, when spoken outside of actually racist context, is not a racist word. Feel free to ask Dr. Dre. You see, Orb was not implying that the person on the other side of the screen was african american and that this was something demeaning. How that is difficult to understand is beyond me. I hope you do know that the original meaning of "gay" is "happy". According to your philosophy, it still is. So calling people gay is, and forever will remain, a compliment. PC radicals have no idea how language actually works. But they sure know how to get someone fired I guess.
So you'd have us believe that Orb, who admitted that he chose the word specifically in a calculated attempt to be especially hurtful, meant it to have an alternate meaning that carries no racial connotations at all?
And we're the ones with no idea how language "actually works?" Are you for real?
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i think what orb said is not a big deal, but i also understand that if you are casting a game for an audience, you MUST be professional, END OF STORY. That means no racial slurs, even if the context was NOT racist. No swearing period should occur when casting!
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Unbelievable! From ive read, this seems like a huge overreaction. How can a video game community be bashing someone for raging in their personal ladder games??! Come on, everyone rages at ladder... your reasonings could mean to imply that 90% of us should never be able to get a job, despite the ability to carry ourselves professionally when it matters.
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On March 10 2012 00:59 HoodedAvatar wrote:
i think what orb said is not a big deal, but i also understand that if you are casting a game for an audience, you MUST be professional, END OF STORY. That means no racial slurs, even if the context was NOT racist. No swearing period should occur when casting!
It was just him raging on ladder...
Gsl should fire artosis for raging on ladder games uh oh...
Stop bitching every1... damn... and EG is fake.
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On March 10 2012 00:56 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:54 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 00:47 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:45 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 00:40 Lunatics wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets When does respecting others ever not matter? And yes, when you use those words you ARE a bigot because you think there is something intrinsically bad about being black or being gay and therefore those words are insults. And no I'm not trolling, you don't get to attribute your own meaning to words. They have objective meaning. How can you say so positively with such uncertanty that because someone used a specific word in some instance somewhere, that you know 100% how they think and act and why they said it. That's complete bullshit. Don't be obtuse. The word Orb used is not generally ambiguous, and the context was clear. Moreover, his explanation was that he chose it because of its offensive connotations. BECAUSE it is an effective way to attack someone, NOT because Orb is racist What distinction are you drawing? I think you should familiarize yourself with the "no true scostman" fallacy. If you use racial slurs to injure others, you're engaging in core racist activity. If you self-define as "not racist," then you should be aware that most people will disagree and find your explanation extremely unconvincing (if not downright bizarre and hypocritical). Sure, I can eat meat and claim to be a "vegetarian." It may even be true in some sense. But I would bear the burden of convincing others, and I certainly shouldn't be upset when others are skeptical of my claim. Do you understand now? Using the word nigger is not a core racist activity, and your argument is therefore circular (another logical fallacy). You seem to be arguing that since all racists use the word nigger, all people that use the word nigger are racists. Doesn't follow.
Using racial slurs to insult other people is a core racist activity. I'm comfortable with that claim. Can you explain why you think otherwise? Or are you just going to neatly define core racist activity to carve out the things you like to do, because you, of course, couldn't possibly be a racist? That seems to be a popular trick around here.
By the way, your second sentence makes no sense. You've grossly misunderstood what I wrote, to the point where I'm not sure it makes sense for me to try again. I urge you to reread and think harder.
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On March 10 2012 00:48 Merlimoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:47 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:44 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:42 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:10 threshy wrote:
Orb's defenders are the ones playing semantic games. They urge the rational among us to ignore the universal understanding of words, and to redefine "rage" to be an emotion that absolves the one who feels it from all responsibility.
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad. Hope you grow up, kiddo. He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest. Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo. I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that? Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez...
Thank you for insulting me 
I definitly got his point, but it seems like you are trying to be condescending so congratulations for being able to do that.
Also i still think words have a objective meaning, which will be sued by most people, because that makes communication efficient. If i accept the term that every person has it's own meaning, whenever somebody says something i would have to ask "What do you mean by that?" and then ask myself "What did he mean when he explained what he meant?" which would lead to an infinite regress, leading to no one understanding, what anybody means.
I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use.
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