Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
I use the word gay all the time, i am not homophobic. Ive been using the word since before i know what it meant. I'm not defending the use of the word but YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANT FOR HIM. Until you can answer that you have no idea if he is racist or not.
The problem isn't whether or not he is a racist, the problem is that he said a racist thing. He is either 1) a racist - which is bad for obvious reasons or 2) isn't a racist and therefore should know better.
Frankly, if you aren't a racist, you should know that you shouldn't go around using that word casually. Just like you, who is not a homophobe, should really make it a priority to stop calling things "gay." I used the word gay when I was a stupid kid, and then I learned better and stopped. If you learned better and HAVEN'T stopped, that is still on you (or Orb in this case).
Sometimes I forget how young the gaming community is and maybe I'm starting to see a generational thing here (and I'm not even that old!).
Knowing what better? If your answer is that knowing better = knowing that a lot of people are way to political correct. Then your correct.
So he shit on his opponent. Whats the big deal? Does that make him a terrible person or a terrible caster? No. All it does is to make him appear to be a bad loser.
On March 10 2012 00:56 oOa)sInNeR wrote: so does this thread mean if we get enough people to complain to egs sponsors they have to fire idra?
Actually I can't help but finding this incident peculiar when compared to previous actions taken against Idra when he does his BM (calling people faggot 24/7). Life really is a popularity contest and Idra is probably too valuable an asset for EG...
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
On March 10 2012 00:59 HoodedAvatar wrote: i think what orb said is not a big deal, but i also understand that if you are casting a game for an audience, you MUST be professional, END OF STORY. That means no racial slurs, even if the context was NOT racist. No swearing period should occur when casting!
He was not casting, it was pulled from some pretty old VoDs and games on ladder. The recent one being a friend playing on his account (statement that he always maintained).
But he was not casting or streaming or anything. This was a private ladder game that he was playing. As in his, his own personal account. His own personal private life. It had nothing to do with his profession which just makes this whole thing even dumber. If he had said that while casting it would be a whole different story.
I think it's fucked up that we live in a society that even when you're in your own private personal life you still have no freedom of speech and have to watch everything you say for fear that someone will save it or remember it and make a big deal out of it later.
Pretty sure after a screenshot surfaced on reddit of him SUPPOSIVLEY saying it, people looked up his account and went back through all his replays and what not until they found another instance of him saying it. Personally I find this 100x more disgusting that a community would go through this much trouble to take someone down when, had that one screenshot not been posted on reddit, there would have been absolutely 0 problem with him. It's so ridiculous.
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
On March 10 2012 00:56 oOa)sInNeR wrote: so does this thread mean if we get enough people to complain to egs sponsors they have to fire idra?
Actually I can't help but finding this incident peculiar when compared to previous actions taken against Idra when he does his BM (calling people faggot 24/7). Life really is a popularity contest and Idra is probably too valuable an asset for EG...
Eg will absolutely fire IDra if enough people wrote sponsors saying hes a homophobic bigot. EG doesnt give idra a pass the community does. Corporations are amoral. Racist or not the corporation doesnt care. All tht matters is the bottom line. If you hurt tht ur gone if u help it ur golden.
On March 10 2012 00:56 oOa)sInNeR wrote: so does this thread mean if we get enough people to complain to egs sponsors they have to fire idra?
Actually I can't help but finding this incident peculiar when compared to previous actions taken against Idra when he does his BM (calling people faggot 24/7). Life really is a popularity contest and Idra is probably too valuable an asset for EG...
Actually, yes that's exactly what this thread means. If IdrA ever mouths off again we can raise another shit storm and get something done. Pro's and Casters aren't allowed to use bigoted language anymore. It's about damn time we drew that line.
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear...
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote: it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely).
I don't think you realize just how absurdly irrational this statement is. Your view on racism takes a good position, but then pushes to a stupid extreme.
So, in 10th grade English class, you would shit bricks upon reading Mark Twain, and protest the class? Why? Maybe if you took the "regardless of context" thing out it wouldn't be such an absurd statement.
On March 10 2012 01:04 Lunatics wrote: But he was not casting or streaming or anything. This was a private ladder game that he was playing. As in his, his own personal account. His own personal private life. It had nothing to do with his profession which just makes this whole thing even dumber. If he had said that while casting it would be a whole different story.
I think it's fucked up that we live in a society that even when you're in your own private personal life you still have no freedom of speech and have to watch everything you say for fear that someone will save it or remember it and make a big deal out of it later.
Pretty sure after a screenshot surfaced on reddit of him SUPPOSIVLEY saying it, people looked up his account and went back through all his replays and what not until they found another instance of him saying it. Personally I find this 100x more disgusting that a community would go through this much trouble to take someone down when, had that one screenshot not been posted on reddit, there would have been absolutely 0 problem with him. It's so ridiculous.
This EXACTLY
And whats even more disturbing is that if he (or his friend) had called the person anything other than a nigger, and I mean just about anything - people would not be nearly as offended as they are right now. It's a shame really...
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear...
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
This is an exceptionally well expressed statement and I respect Alex for typing it up. I wholly disagree with a firing in this situation though. It appears to me that some hypocrisy exists in the EG organization as they seem to accept a double-standard for "known commodities". I'll do my best to explain what I mean.
Orb uses the word "nigger", a word described by you as the most repugnant (subjective, in my opinion) of all racist terms and loses his job and a statement is issued by the terminating organization. IdrA on the other hand uses the words faggot and retard and nothing externally happens.
By your description and view of the word "nigger", one could rationally assume you hold "faggot" in the same regard as "nigger" because of it's connotation and history. The same goes for retard. These are all words that represent the worst of the discriminatory statements in relation to their respective subjects. Yet it doesn't seem like EG is willing to enforce this, at least not on a macro level.
For a team like EG, one of the richest eSports teams there is, I think firing Orb is easy because he's not exactly a premier caster in relation to some of SC's other "celebrity" casters. Not as many people are going to tune in specifically to see Orb cast, at least not on the level of Day9 or another famous caster, therefore it's probably pretty difficult to quantify any revenue from him. It's easy to say, well there is public outrage against Orb so let's have a look at this, he's not a proven product, his usage of the word nigger violates my beliefs, let's get rid of him, appease the pitchforks and issue a statement distancing ourselves from him and absolving our organization from any bad PR. This is OK. There is probably nothing wrong with this, despite the heavy handedness of it all. Except that this "standard", new or otherwise, doesn't hold true across all EG employees.
IdrA has LONG been one of the best SC players and one of the absolute rudest when it comes to online interaction. The examples have piled up over the years and evidence is irrefutable that he's pretty sharp with the BM when it's necessary and even more so when it isn't. So in relation to Orb, he has a proven history for word usage and attitudes that should, by your very definition of discriminatory words, preclude him from any employment with your organization. What's the problem with terminating IdrA or precluding him from your organization? Money. IdrA is a money draw. People love him, tourneys love having him. He guarantees controversy and high view counts. He is a proven commodity as far as popularity goes. You lose him, and you probably lose a nice chunk of money and fans. He's clearly one of the most popular players in StarCraft today because of his skill and his ability to polarize the community.
EG won't punish a commodity like IdrA publicly for statements and attitudes that EG should find equally despicable and damaging, but will take a hard stance with employees like Orb because of the bottom line and a completely respectable, but misplaced moral judgement. Because of this hard line that has been placed, EG will have a tough time hiring or signing any players in the future because of a precedent that has now been set.
On a personal level, I feel that in the case of Orb or anyone who has put themselves in a position like this, personally or publicly, that gentle correction and guidance is the best course of action. If a course can't be corrected over a period of time, then a strong dose of discipline like Orb received may do the person some good, otherwise it can just jade a person and harden them.
Thanks for the post Alex, and anyone who read my thoughts.
I don't applaud this decision, but, if people were actually messaging EG's sponsor's it really was an only opinion scenario. Why people would do that without first giving EG time is only a testament to the entitlement, impatience, and overall stupidity of some of our community. It is a decision I understand however, and it is something that will reflect on Orb's career without ruining it.
I still hold that this needs to serve as an example for everyone in the community (the actual participating community: the players/casters/translators/etc...) that whether you think you're in public or not, you are in public and you need to act accordingly and learn to shut your mouth. Whether that's saying words you shouldn't or talking about things that are none of your own business, or talking about things and starting rumors that aren't necessarily even true in front of the community.
On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote: If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards!
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes.
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear...
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it...
Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama...
On March 10 2012 01:04 Lunatics wrote: But he was not casting or streaming or anything. This was a private ladder game that he was playing. As in his, his own personal account. His own personal private life. It had nothing to do with his profession which just makes this whole thing even dumber. If he had said that while casting it would be a whole different story.
I think it's fucked up that we live in a society that even when you're in your own private personal life you still have no freedom of speech and have to watch everything you say for fear that someone will save it or remember it and make a big deal out of it later.
Pretty sure after a screenshot surfaced on reddit of him SUPPOSIVLEY saying it, people looked up his account and went back through all his replays and what not until they found another instance of him saying it. Personally I find this 100x more disgusting that a community would go through this much trouble to take someone down when, had that one screenshot not been posted on reddit, there would have been absolutely 0 problem with him. It's so ridiculous.
This EXACTLY
And whats even more disturbing is that if he (or his friend) had called the person anything other than a nigger, and I mean just about anything - people would not be nearly as offended as they are right now. It's a shame really...
Honestly, no one wants to hear is but the problem is white guilt and this deep seeded fear of racism because of slave times, they feel like if they say or do anything considered racial then they are instantly racist. No one wants to admit it but it's the truth and it's so obvious in how some people act.
Had this come out a month or two ago, would EG have not considered hiring Orb at all? If thats true, I wonder just how much damage this will do to Orb's future career.
I've been watching Orb since the beta and I've seen his rants and BM while playing, but he's one of my favorite casters. He's interesting and insightful and I enjoy listening to him. It's sad that this had to come out right when I got excited to see him cast the mcl.
EPT
