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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
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On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama...
You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt.
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Good. If tomorrow video surfaced of Tom Brady calling someone a racial slur, he'd expect a huge fine (Kobe was fined $100,000 for using a homophobic slur). And that's for a huge star, for a minor bench player, he'd likely just be cut completely. And broadcasters are the same--Jimmy the Greek famously lost his job for basically saying black people are more athletic because slave masters bred them that way. Why should e-sports be held to a lower standard than actual sports? If you want to be treated like a professional, and paid like a professional, then you need to act like a professional.
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United States13143 Posts
On March 10 2012 01:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely). I don't think you realize just how absurdly irrational this statement is. Your view on racism takes a good position, but then pushes to a stupid extreme. So, in 10th grade English class, you would shit bricks upon reading Mark Twain, and protest the class? Why? Maybe if you took the "regardless of context" thing out it wouldn't be such an absurd statement.
That's kind of a funny example, since a "sanitized" version of Huck Finn was released like a year ago that took out nigger and replaced it with nicer words.
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On March 10 2012 01:01 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:48 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:47 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:44 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:42 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:
[quote]
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad. Hope you grow up, kiddo. He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest. Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo. I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that? Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez... Thank you for insulting me  I definitly got his point, but it seems like you are trying to be condescending so congratulations for being able to do that. Also i still think words have a objective meaning, which will be sued by most people, because that makes communication efficient. If i accept the term that every person has it's own meaning, whenever somebody says something i would have to ask "What do you mean by that?" and then ask myself "What did he mean when he explained what he meant?" which would lead to an infinite regress, leading to no one understanding, what anybody means. I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use.
I though "grow up" and "kiddo" were condescending too, maybe not "objectively", my bad. I have merely tried to made it even for him, what a white knight I am.
If you think word are objectives what about this scenario:
I am a DB developer, I erase the whole production database. My boss says : "Well done! You've earn a promotion". Do you think I will have it ?
This is exemple is dumb enough to be understood. The communication world is full of none said (don't really know the right expression in english), double meaning, corporal communication. The words are merely a support to convey ideas, emotion and intents. A pretty bad one to say the least, since the true meaning are always changing, subject to culture, minority acceptance and taken differently from the context, the people who say it and the state of mind of the one who hear it.
As an example. Saying you are a cry baby to someone who just lost her husband is incensitive, while saying to some one who is just complaining about a game imbalance (to not say Idra) is pretty ok.
I'd be happy to see words being cleary understood by everybody in the same but the truth is, a lot a problem comes from that. Some misinterpreted words leads to a small bad impression on somebody which can be unconsciously used for further interpretation, and here come the snowball effect.
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On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt.
This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you...
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On March 10 2012 01:14 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Good. If tomorrow video surfaced of Tom Brady calling someone a racial slur, he'd expect a huge fine (Kobe was fined $100,000 for using a homophobic slur). And that's for a huge star, for a minor bench player, he'd likely just be cut completely. And broadcasters are the same--Jimmy the Greek famously lost his job for basically saying black people are more athletic because slave masters bred them that way. Why should e-sports be held to a lower standard than actual sports? If you want to be treated like a professional, and paid like a professional, then you need to act like a professional.
Because it is well accepted that it is a dumb world.
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I think the best thing to take from this is to understand you can say something without being racist, but you can't say it without sounding racist. Once you're in the public eye the ability to show restraint for something so menial is very important.
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TL:DR *For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
Sounds real desperate.
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On March 10 2012 00:18 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:01 Carl_Sagan wrote:On March 09 2012 23:52 FFGenerations wrote:
i hope orb keeps casting somewhere, and if he accidently lets slip with words like nigger or faggot or pedo or jew, then i will laugh, because my upbringing has not been to take offense to words but to actions and intent.
This. Maybe it's because I have black friends who call pretty much anything nigguh, but I think it's obvious that intent is everything. IMO the foulness and hatred that a word once embodied can be destroyed by changing its meaning. Get angry at bad ideas and malicious intent, not at words. Your black friends probably don't go around calling everything kike or something else offensive to a different minority, it might be fine for them to use, but that doesn't mean it's fine for orb. Words can have their meaning changes, but we are not there with the language orb was using.
Maybe you're 'not there', but some of us are 'there'. You don't get to extend your sensibilities to everyone.
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On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt.
Wouldn't you rather deal with the problem by trying to understand why causes it rather than going all out Fascist on the matter?
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This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you...
This is the modern world. If you want to work in most professions, expect to be held to a certain standard of behavior which includes choice of language. If I started posting racist slurs on facebook, and my boss found out about it, I would almost certainly be fired. For those who work in relatively high profile positions and/or positions in the entertainment industry, those standards tend to be even more stringent. If Orb just wants to be another immature child using racist slurs on the internet, thats his perogative. But if he wants to be a paid commentator, then that's his boss's perogative, and his boss might prefer a commentator with the maturity to hold to some professional standard of common courtesy, especially when playing the game he's paid to commentate.
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Alex seriously getting my respect, and so is the community. Good job to all the folk on Reddit!
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On March 10 2012 01:20 cascades wrote:
TL:DR *For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.
Sounds real desperate.
Thats because without sponsors there isnt a EG. People dont realize how fragile these teams actually are. You could sink a team with this contact the sponsors stuff. People will say oh no no no. Go ask scoots what he thinks see what he says.
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On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you...
So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval.
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People have different connotations for words, and a good majority of every argument comes down to defining a common set of vocabulary. With that said, using words like nigger and faggot are clearly a bad idea from a professional standpoint, but the fact this happened before Orb was signed to EG and still resulted in his dismissal really gives the impression that Garfield is trying to take an opportunity to push an antiquated idea, that specific words should be banned from use on a global level. It's evident that this idea isn't possible even if it was desired by the majority, the Louis C.K. video linked earlier is a good example to illustrate that.
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Wouldn't you rather deal with the problem by trying to understand why causes it rather than going all out Fascist on the matter?
How is it facist? The government isn't coming to his house. This is a private company, making a choice about who it wants representing it. Nobody is suggesting the gestapo abduct Orb, we are saying that EG has the right to employ or not employ who they like, according to the values that matter to them.
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On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community .
This is the exact reason I don't understand why the "racism" was such a big deal.
But with that said, I do respect the decision. Any company that can stick to core values is usually a pretty nice company.
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Edit: Sorry I misread your post
It says: "yes, i do. every time it happens, he hears from me. have you noticed it happening recently? if you have, let me know."
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All of this shit because of a retarted redditor who contacted EG's sponsors to tell them they were sponsoring a racist organization. God, there are some serious retards in the sc2 community.
PS: might get banned for this, but Garfield's post is a joke to me
My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. And, while I'll never claim to understand what life is like from the perspective of anyone other than a straight, White guy, I'd like to think that I have a pretty solid academic understanding of how race and racism function in contemporary society.
L O fucking L
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
