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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
I think the move in itself from EG's CEO is the right one. It looks good and it's going to help to appease the tension.
Yet I don't like the content in itself, it feels dogmatic to me.
First, the argument from authority (I studied the question, so what follows deserves credit).
Second, the fact that the author has mixed in very theoretical parts (about stuff like definitions, History etc.) with other parts that are simply emotional ("my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word"). I think that if you're going to use serious arguments to shed some light on a question you absolutely need to have emotional distance.
Third, Garfield's text seems dogmatic because it never considers the opponent's position, so much that it does feel a bit like what I'd like to call an argumentative bulldozer. In my opinion this is the sign of a writer who is convinced of what he asserts.
What I'd like to see in such a debate is people being actively critical toward their own opinions.
Patrice L.-L.
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On March 10 2012 00:52 CaptainCrush wrote:
I find it very amusing (or insane) how one word always seems to cause so much controversy. Idra can call someone a faggot on his stream, and pretty much daily, and not even get a stern warning from his CEO. However, when someone brings out the N word, even as little as one time, the world flips shit and demands reparation, punishment, and general dismay to the party who said it.
Im not in any way agreeing with Orb having said it, all I'm implying is that he didnt say it during any EG event, he didnt say it to any of their affiliates, it wasnt captured on camera as far as a I know, and above all else - ITS JUST A WORD.
The reason that its still considered such a nasty word is becuase so many people cling to the raging entitlement that they believe comes with being called a nigger. Shrug it off guys, let the word die. And for anyone of any color who still calls their homeboys "niggas", you only further purpetuate the negative connotation of both words and continue to enforce its use as a racial slur.
I don't agree with Orb getting fired for saying something that wasnt on camera, not at an EG event, and not even at an event in any way affiliated with EG. I do however agree that the CEO should be able to fire someone for this type of thing but Alex's actions would not have been my own. Now that it is public though I guess EG has to save face. Not sure what the best mode of punishment would have been... GL to all involved.
If you want to have a job in the puplic eye even the appearance of racism can be disaster. That's what Orb is finding out. Maintaining an image that will stand up to public scrutiny takes more emotional stability than Orb has. A white guy slinging the n-word around is playing with fire under any circumstances, even more so when he is using it as an insult.
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I approve of the actions taken here.
I was originally going to avoid all EG-orb broadcasts as I couldn't stand his personal stream, and that irritation bothered me through to his casting. Thankfully I no longer have to do that and can still watch EG broadcasts without getting pissed off.
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We're never going to get closure from either orb or EG about whether he was lying about the friend playing on his account, because even if it was a lie both EG and orb have to stick to the story.
So I don't think there's any point in discussing that further.
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On March 10 2012 01:29 SolidMustard wrote:All of this shit because of a retarted redditor who contacted EG's sponsors to tell them they were sponsoring a racist organization. God, there are some serious retards in the sc2 community. PS: might get banned for this, but Garfield's post is a joke to me Show nested quote +My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. And, while I'll never claim to understand what life is like from the perspective of anyone other than a straight, White guy, I'd like to think that I have a pretty solid academic understanding of how race and racism function in contemporary society. L O fucking L
Unless you remove the "i might get banned for this" you must definitely will... martyrdom on TL = ban.
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On March 10 2012 01:30 Heat_023 wrote:
I think the move in itself from EG's CEO is the right one. It looks good and it's going to help to appease the tension.
Yet I don't like the content in itself, it feels dogmatic to me.
First, the argument from authority (I studied the question, so what follows deserves credit).
Second, the fact that the author has mixed in very theoretical parts (about stuff like definitions, History etc.) with other parts that are simply emotional ("my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word"). I think that if you're going to use serious arguments to shed some light on a question you absolutely need to have emotional distance.
Third, Garfield's text seems dogmatic because it never considers the opponent's position, so much that it does feel a bit like what I'd like to call an argumentative bulldozer. In my opinion this is the sign of a writer who is convinced of what he asserts.
What I'd like to see in such a debate is people being actively critical toward their own opinions.
Patrice L.-L.
Exactly. At least there is still some clever people around here.
What amaze me is if you compare this to his PPV post. Even more manipulative.
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I don't really understand how Idra can run around doing/saying anything he wants, yet when orb says something he gets the axe.
Reminds me of star players in hockey not getting suspended for something, yet others do.
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OK, so he got fired and i'll say demolished because in a game a year-ago where he was being cannon rushed he said Nigger?
I mean I know you have to deal with the sponsors but wow, this really looks stupid to me.
Everyone makes mistakes, you just made him pay to much for his, that was an overkill.
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On March 10 2012 01:34 VPVanek wrote:
I don't really understand how Idra can run around doing/saying anything he wants, yet when orb says something he gets the axe.
Reminds me of star players in hockey not getting suspended for something, yet others do.
To put it in business terms:
IdrA is the revenue, orb is the expense.
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l of this shit because of a retarted redditor who contacted EG's sponsors to tell them they were sponsoring a racist organization. God, there are some serious retards in the sc2 community.
Presumably whoever did that, did so because they wanted Orb punished for his statements, which was exactly what happened. Seems to me they did exactly the right move to get what they wanted.
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On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people.
You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval.
It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist...
Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet.
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On March 10 2012 01:30 Shafanhow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:52 CaptainCrush wrote:
I find it very amusing (or insane) how one word always seems to cause so much controversy. Idra can call someone a faggot on his stream, and pretty much daily, and not even get a stern warning from his CEO. However, when someone brings out the N word, even as little as one time, the world flips shit and demands reparation, punishment, and general dismay to the party who said it.
Im not in any way agreeing with Orb having said it, all I'm implying is that he didnt say it during any EG event, he didnt say it to any of their affiliates, it wasnt captured on camera as far as a I know, and above all else - ITS JUST A WORD.
The reason that its still considered such a nasty word is becuase so many people cling to the raging entitlement that they believe comes with being called a nigger. Shrug it off guys, let the word die. And for anyone of any color who still calls their homeboys "niggas", you only further purpetuate the negative connotation of both words and continue to enforce its use as a racial slur.
I don't agree with Orb getting fired for saying something that wasnt on camera, not at an EG event, and not even at an event in any way affiliated with EG. I do however agree that the CEO should be able to fire someone for this type of thing but Alex's actions would not have been my own. Now that it is public though I guess EG has to save face. Not sure what the best mode of punishment would have been... GL to all involved. If you want to have a job in the puplic eye even the appearance of racism can be disaster. That's what Orb is finding out. Maintaining an image that will stand up to public scrutiny takes more emotional stability than Orb has. A white guy slinging the n-word around is playing with fire under any circumstances, even more so when he is using it as an insult.
Dejavu, either you said that earlier/yesterday in this thrread or some other, or you copied that from somebody else. O.o
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On March 10 2012 01:15 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely). I don't think you realize just how absurdly irrational this statement is. Your view on racism takes a good position, but then pushes to a stupid extreme. So, in 10th grade English class, you would shit bricks upon reading Mark Twain, and protest the class? Why? Maybe if you took the "regardless of context" thing out it wouldn't be such an absurd statement. That's kind of a funny example, since a "sanitized" version of Huck Finn was released like a year ago that took out nigger and replaced it with nicer words.
Lol, ok? And? That somebody decided to print a censored copy of the book does not imply anything.
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On March 10 2012 01:29 SolidMustard wrote:All of this shit because of a retarted redditor who contacted EG's sponsors to tell them they were sponsoring a racist organization. God, there are some serious retards in the sc2 community. PS: might get banned for this, but Garfield's post is a joke to me Show nested quote +My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. And, while I'll never claim to understand what life is like from the perspective of anyone other than a straight, White guy, I'd like to think that I have a pretty solid academic understanding of how race and racism function in contemporary society. L O fucking L
The likes of you are the reason he made the post in the first place.
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On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet.
1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world."
2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point).
You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck.
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On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet.
rape is not the same as nigger and faggot, saying im going to rape you in this game implies rape is a bad experience which of course it is. Saying you are a nigger or a faggot says that being black or gay is bad which is called racism and homophobia, you cannot argue otherwise >.> .
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This might just be the most retarded thing i have ever read. it shouldnt matter what people say on their personal time, as long as they are professional and courteous on company time. orb is not sponsored on his stream i think. this whole situation just hurt esports. EG is hypocritical...ihdra bm anyone?
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On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning.
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On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:
[quote]
I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power.
I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet.
That's a terrible analogy, so easy to contradict. 'Rape' has a figurative meaning, 'nigger' does not.
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On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck.
Holy shit you actually believe what you say is true?
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EPT
