|
Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:
okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this
Somebody sounds like he could do with a new set of friends.
|
On March 10 2012 01:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:15 Elyvilon wrote:On March 10 2012 01:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely). I don't think you realize just how absurdly irrational this statement is. Your view on racism takes a good position, but then pushes to a stupid extreme. So, in 10th grade English class, you would shit bricks upon reading Mark Twain, and protest the class? Why? Maybe if you took the "regardless of context" thing out it wouldn't be such an absurd statement. That's kind of a funny example, since a "sanitized" version of Huck Finn was released like a year ago that took out nigger and replaced it with nicer words. Lol, ok? And? That somebody decided to print a censored copy of the book does not imply anything.
You do know that To Kill a Mockingbird is still a controversial book for high school curriculae, right?
Every few months some random schoolboard decides to ban it because of complaints, and then quickly gets flak for it from reasonable people.
|
On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck.
I don't use this gaming slang actually or offensive words, w/e you want to call it... i'm just saying not to take the words so serious in this context... it's just some random kids trying to offend people and you are not gonna stop that as long as there is any kind of anonymity to it.
Of course if 1 of them like orb then gets in the spotlight it can bite them in the ass... as has happened now, but that doesn't mean that EG ain't hypocrits, they knew what a rager he was before hiring him and effectively fired him now for stuff that happened before he got hired by EG.
|
On March 10 2012 01:38 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck. Holy shit you actually believe what you say is true?
yes he does and so do I, why is any homophobic language or racist language at all acceptable especially in the public eye, when people look up to people who they see in these casts especially kids.
|
On March 10 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:
It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning.
The same way that dictionaries do?
|
On March 10 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning.
I'm going to apply my own meaning to your post then and interpret your post to mean you are a purple spotted unicorn with an affinity for apples rivaled only by the shinigami.
I'm shocked that you would even assert something so foolish and I feel like you're just going to irrationally stick to your guns but in that case you should leave the meaningful discussion to the people who can actually communicate and understand one another.
|
On March 10 2012 01:15 Merlimoo wrote:
I though "grow up" and "kiddo" were condescending too, maybe not "objectively", my bad. I have merely tried to made it even for him, what a white knight I am.
If you think word are objectives what about this scenario:
I am a DB developer, I erase the whole production database. My boss says : "Well done! You've earn a promotion". Do you think I will have it ?
This is exemple is dumb enough to be understood. The communication world is full of none said (don't really know the right expression in english), second guess meaning, corporal communication. The words are merely a support to convey ideas, emotion and intents. A pretty bad one to say the least, since the true meaning are always changing, subject to culture, minority acceptance and taken differently from the context, the people who say it and the state of mind of the one who hear it.
As an example. Saying you are a cry baby to someone who just lost her husband is incensitive, while saying to some one who is just complaining about a game imbalance (to not say Idra) is pretty ok.
I'd be happy to see words being cleary understood by everybody in the same but the truth is, a lot a problem comes from that. Some misinterpreted words leads to a small bad impression on somebody which can be unconsciously used for further interpretation, and here come the snowball effect.
Maybe i was not clear enough, but in a general society a word has a meaning, which si in most cases supported by a emphasis. Since i have no idea, what a DB developer is, so i am not sure if you are supposed to delete things, but i guess if your boss is not a robot and uses emphasis, and from the context, you can actually see what is meant with the words.
If you are using "nigger", "jew" or "faggot" in a competitive scenario, while you are loosing, it is meant to be insulting, thus leading to you saying that black, gay or jewish people are worth less than people who are not gay, jewish or black.
Otherwise, it would not be insulting, but just guessing what the sexual orientation, skin colour or sexual orientation of your opponent is. I mean have you ever seen somebody angry in an only game and yell: "You fucking straight person!"
No because that is not considered to be insulting, by male straight gamers.
I personally, when i rage, result to words like"asshole", "piece of shit" and "motherfucker" because these things are insulting to everybody, without deeming any kind of human less than me.
|
On March 10 2012 01:38 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:
[quote]
It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior.
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. That's a terrible analogy, so easy to contradict. 'Rape' has a figurative meaning, 'nigger' does not.
I'm sure if you made that argument to a victim of rape they would not feel the same way. Please be more considerate.
|
United States13143 Posts
On March 10 2012 01:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:15 Elyvilon wrote:On March 10 2012 01:07 FallDownMarigold wrote:On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely). I don't think you realize just how absurdly irrational this statement is. Your view on racism takes a good position, but then pushes to a stupid extreme. So, in 10th grade English class, you would shit bricks upon reading Mark Twain, and protest the class? Why? Maybe if you took the "regardless of context" thing out it wouldn't be such an absurd statement. That's kind of a funny example, since a "sanitized" version of Huck Finn was released like a year ago that took out nigger and replaced it with nicer words. Lol, ok? And? That somebody decided to print a censored copy of the book does not imply anything.
First off, let me make it clear that I think censoring the book was stupid. I was trying to make the point that there are, in fact, people who believe that it shouldn't be in the curriculum.
|
On March 10 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning.
If you don't believe words have an objective meaning you MUST find it impossible to communicate using them... Anything can mean anything right? Or do we just all happen to undertand the same subjective meaning for every word I just used in these sentences?? Hate speech is hate speech, slander/defamation are real laws, and words do actually carry meaning.
|
On March 10 2012 01:40 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia.
How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia?
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear... Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck. I don't use this gaming slang actually or offensive words, w/e you want to call it... i'm just saying not to take the words so serious in this context... it's just some random kids trying to offend people and you are not gonna stop that as long as there is any kind of anonymity to it. Of course if 1 of them like orb then gets in the spotlight it can bite them in the ass... as has happened now, but that doesn't mean that EG ain't hypocrits, they knew what a rager he was before hiring him and effectively fired him now for stuff that happened before he got hired by EG.
This "don't get offended" logic just puts the blame on the victim instead of the aggressor. It needs to stop. It is the exact opposite of progress.
|
Oh jeez, I completely forgot about that CS incident back in 03... I have to say that at the time I thought it was hilarious, I don't think the events are the same though or even comparable.
|
On March 10 2012 01:40 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:
It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning.
The same way that dictionaries do?
Words carry intersubjective meaning within a community of speakers (us), which for practical purposes at present is the same as objective meaning.
|
I saw the links about idras use of homophobic slurs; I approve of parting ways with Orb, but if you are indeed adopting a zero-tolerance policy than it should be just that. I'd hope that next time Idra uses 'f----t' he faces more than a stern talking-to behind the scene-- one derogotory term is equally unacceptable as another.
|
a bit extreme but i guess u gotta make an example
|
On March 10 2012 01:45 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:40 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:06 Technique wrote:
[quote]
It's just about saying stuff the other might not want to hear...
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck. I don't use this gaming slang actually or offensive words, w/e you want to call it... i'm just saying not to take the words so serious in this context... it's just some random kids trying to offend people and you are not gonna stop that as long as there is any kind of anonymity to it. Of course if 1 of them like orb then gets in the spotlight it can bite them in the ass... as has happened now, but that doesn't mean that EG ain't hypocrits, they knew what a rager he was before hiring him and effectively fired him now for stuff that happened before he got hired by EG. This "don't get offended" logic just puts the blame on the victim instead of the aggressor. It needs to stop. It is the exact opposite of progress.
Why victim tho?
Look if i canon rush some1 i know most of them are gonna rage when losing... i kinda find it funny actually, but if you get offended by it then they got what they want...
Imo topics like ''post a screenshot of some1 raging'' are funny as well... out them and make fun of them, but don't take it to serious.
|
On March 10 2012 01:41 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:15 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 01:01 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:47 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:44 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:42 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:
[quote]
thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt
but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist
you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad. Hope you grow up, kiddo. He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest. Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo. I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that? Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez... Thank you for insulting me  I definitly got his point, but it seems like you are trying to be condescending so congratulations for being able to do that. Also i still think words have a objective meaning, which will be sued by most people, because that makes communication efficient. If i accept the term that every person has it's own meaning, whenever somebody says something i would have to ask "What do you mean by that?" and then ask myself "What did he mean when he explained what he meant?" which would lead to an infinite regress, leading to no one understanding, what anybody means. I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use. I though "grow up" and "kiddo" were condescending too, maybe not "objectively", my bad. I have merely tried to made it even for him, what a white knight I am. If you think word are objectives what about this scenario: I am a DB developer, I erase the whole production database. My boss says : "Well done! You've earn a promotion". Do you think I will have it ? This is exemple is dumb enough to be understood. The communication world is full of none said (don't really know the right expression in english), second guess meaning, corporal communication. The words are merely a support to convey ideas, emotion and intents. A pretty bad one to say the least, since the true meaning are always changing, subject to culture, minority acceptance and taken differently from the context, the people who say it and the state of mind of the one who hear it. As an example. Saying you are a cry baby to someone who just lost her husband is incensitive, while saying to some one who is just complaining about a game imbalance (to not say Idra) is pretty ok. I'd be happy to see words being cleary understood by everybody in the same but the truth is, a lot a problem comes from that. Some misinterpreted words leads to a small bad impression on somebody which can be unconsciously used for further interpretation, and here come the snowball effect. Maybe i was not clear enough, but in a general society a word has a meaning, which si in most cases supported by a emphasis. Since i have no idea, what a DB developer is, so i am not sure if you are supposed to delete things, but i guess if your boss is not a robot and uses emphasis, and from the context, you can actually see what is meant with the words. If you are using "nigger", "jew" or "faggot" in a competitive scenario, while you are loosing, it is meant to be insulting, thus leading to you saying that black, gay or jewish people are worth less than people who are not gay, jewish or black. Otherwise, it would not be insulting, but just guessing what the sexual orientation, skin colour or sexual orientation of your opponent is. I mean have you ever seen somebody angry in an only game and yell: "You fucking straight person!" No because that is not considered to be insulting, by male straight gamers. I personally, when i rage, result to words like"asshole", "piece of shit" and "motherfucker" because these things are insulting to everybody, without deeming any kind of human less than me. Ok,
When I want to insult I use the words that I know are insulting because I've identify them being so. Sometimes I don't even know what they really means. I've just heard them being used in that context. It's like "boloss" in France theses days.
It is much like the "u mad?" which originally was "u mad" and had not exactly the same meaning.
In the end, when I call someone a dickhead, I do not imply that he looks like a dick, obviously. Especially over the internet.
Most of the time, I call someone gay when he says something stupidly funny. Having gay friends, I don't consider having a problem with them, and I certainly not consider them inferior.
What everybody do, or should be doing, does not really matter.
It is possible to insult, just for the sake of insulting, whatever the word is and whatever intends some people will try put in your mouth.
It is what it is, you want it or not, I'm not the only one in this case, and if our number grow (and it will), theses words will lose their hatefull meaning for the rest of you too.
|
On March 10 2012 01:49 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:45 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:40 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:37 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:35 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:24 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 01:16 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:14 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:12 Technique wrote:On March 10 2012 01:09 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
Saying that gays are inferior (whether I care about hearing it or not) is pretty much the definition of homophobia. I think you miss the point completely and tbh you should just laugh at those type of people instead of being all sensitive bout it... Orb here being the perfect example... can't deal with losing to some canon rush and trying his hardest to offend his opponent... why not just laugh and feel pity? Instead of being all offended and crap... tho i do realize i'm posting this on TL... where people love drama... You realize that homophobia (and bigotry in general) has led to murders, assaults, oppression, second class citizenry, and all sorts of atrocities? No, I'm not going to pity that bullshit logic and thought. I'm going to stamp it out before more people get hurt. This is the internet... i think you should log off and be sensitive elsewhere tbh... cause you ain't gonna be having much of a good time if you let every kid yelling out crap get to you... So homophobia is acceptable because its the internet and its esports, bullshit. Kids need to be taught its not acceptable to be racist or homophobic and if we just ignore them its silent approval. It's not homophobia... just like not every1 who says nigger is instantly a racist... Like if 1 player says he's gonna rape another player... He's not actually gonna rape that person... you shouldn't take everything so black and white, especially when it comes to gaming and the internet. 1. The internet is not a safe haven for bigotry. It does not get any exemptions from "the real world." 2. Yes, using bigoted language is by definition bigoted. If you use homophobic language, you are a homophobe. If you use racist language, you are a racist (I do disagree with Alex on this point). You can use all the mental gymnastics to keep using your offensive words and feel good about yourself all you want but if it quacks like duck...it's a duck. I don't use this gaming slang actually or offensive words, w/e you want to call it... i'm just saying not to take the words so serious in this context... it's just some random kids trying to offend people and you are not gonna stop that as long as there is any kind of anonymity to it. Of course if 1 of them like orb then gets in the spotlight it can bite them in the ass... as has happened now, but that doesn't mean that EG ain't hypocrits, they knew what a rager he was before hiring him and effectively fired him now for stuff that happened before he got hired by EG. This "don't get offended" logic just puts the blame on the victim instead of the aggressor. It needs to stop. It is the exact opposite of progress. Why victim tho? Look if i canon rush some1 i know most of them are gonna rage when losing... i kinda find it funny actually, but if you get offended by it then they got what they want... Imo topics like ''post a screenshot of some1 raging'' are funny as well... out them and make fun of them, but don't take it to serious.
because people are regularly victims of homophobia and racism...
|
On March 10 2012 01:01 zocktol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 00:48 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:47 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:44 Merlimoo wrote:On March 10 2012 00:42 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:35 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:32 zocktol wrote:On March 10 2012 00:27 FFGenerations wrote:On March 10 2012 00:23 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 00:21 FFGenerations wrote:
[quote]
No because in REALITY the meaning of "nigger" , "fag" etc has a different meaning to the person USING the word. the REALITY is based on the INDIVIDUAL's perception, not some "universal" perception as you claim. (the universal perception being of course YOUR perception in this case, sigh) And exactly how are homosexuals and black people supposed to feel when they hear those words? Want some "REALITY?" Language is about communication. By definition it involves more than the individual. When you use language you MUST do so with the recipients in mind, otherwise why try to communicate at all? You do not get to apply complete relativism to language in the name if individualism because language is not individualistic. thats why people must be respectful of other's FEELINGS , WHEN IT MATTERS ie when someones feelings could be hurt but thats also why you should understand and accept that when you overhear someone using nigger fag then its NOT because theyre racist but because it doesnt hurt their feelings to use those words or because they (in rage/troll cases) its to attack someone but not because theyre racist you are trolling anyway , "language is not individualistic" what the hell does this mean? language is how we communicate concepts, and concepts are as individual and personal as it gets Language is used to communicate, hence the meaning of a word is defined by a greater group of people, because if only you know what you mean by usign a word language no longer has any meaning. "hohoho ihihihih akaka" might mean to me "hia" but does not do so for other people, but i am being "individualistic" with my language. Society defines language and under this impression the meaning of a word might be "felt" indivudally but it's definition is universal. okay well thats too bad for you, because in my community "fag" and "jew" and "nigger" are more associated with random fun insults or with rage-direct/trolly effective attacks than with sickening abuse of a people . the greater group of people says you are wasting your energy getting upset over this The amount of rational explanation that you can contribute to this discussioin equals zero, thank you for that. It is fun that you think, what ever your peer group decides to do, is the way you should behave in public. Thank you for explaining to me, that you are not capable of defending your position with something else than exposing the amount of bigotry you are living with. The fact that you and your friends consider the term "Jew" to be an insult and not just the desciption of somebodys religious convictions makes me really sad. Hope you grow up, kiddo. He was trying to get you understand by your self that every group of people have different standard. And the one you and us live in is not necessarily the best because it is the biggest. Maybe you are not mature enough to step back a little and get it by yourself, kiddo. I do not have to accept the standards of people, if they are using inhumane language or practices. Or do you think, that as long as a group of people thinks it is ok to do something, they can do that? Dumbhead, it is exactly what he is saying to you. In his community, it is not offending. Why do prefer your version where it offends people? Geez... Thank you for insulting me I definitly got his point, but it seems like you are trying to be condescending so congratulations for being able to do that. Also i still think words have a objective meaning, which will be sued by most people, because that makes communication efficient. If i accept the term that every person has it's own meaning, whenever somebody says something i would have to ask "What do you mean by that?" and then ask myself "What did he mean when he explained what he meant?" which would lead to an infinite regress, leading to no one understanding, what anybody means. I do not meant to call FFGenerations a homophobic, racist, antisemite but he is using the language somebody with those characteristics would use.
You simply don't understand what objective means. Objective meaning != used by most people.
|
On March 10 2012 01:45 xsevR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 01:38 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 01:05 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 01:03 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:53 Shiori wrote:On March 10 2012 00:51 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2012 00:48 Klondikebar wrote:
If you think that faggot is an insult, then you think that calling someone gay is insulting. You think being gay is inferior to being straight. You are a homophobe. You are more than just insensitive.
I'm shocked that I have to explain in such great detail what should be common sense.
Holy shit man. When people use the word "faggot" it is to demean someone. It replaces jerk, asshole, things of that ilk. The way people use it IMPLIES that gays are inferior to straight people. You have this exactly backwards! I believe he's trying to rationalize his anger at the mere existence of the word by pretending that every person who utters it is some evangelical politician seeking to illegalize gay marriage. Or, I suppose he figures that's what everyone would be were we in a position of power. I guess more or less 99% of people in the English speaking world are homophobes. It's not really to do with homophobia per se, it's the implication that gays or blacks are inferior. How is the implication that gays are inferior not homophobia? It is homophobia to imply that gays are inferior, except your entire argument is predicated on the patently false assertion that words carry objective meaning. If you don't believe words have an objective meaning you MUST find it impossible to communicate using them... Anything can mean anything right? Or do we just all happen to undertand the same subjective meaning for every word I just used in these sentences?? Hate speech is hate speech, slander/defamation are real laws, and words do actually carry meaning.
seeing that like 90% of communication is tone and body language.... and language conveys our messages and ideas, it doesn't make the language our ideas, no matter what someone says it doesn't make it true or fact, even the opinion of the person, and when someone uses words like nigger or faggot it doesnt mean that their intention was to insult black people or gays, language is a very small part of communication, im sorry that you cant look past the shell of communication that is language, you must have a hard time understanding sarcasm, maybe everyone in this thread that is offended has aspergers and don't understand social queues and the concept that him saying nigger or faggot doesn't mean hes a homophobe or racist and just that he was trying to show his anger for the person he was playing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
