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Saiton
Sweden467 Posts
On March 25 2012 19:25 freakhill wrote: MMM should be enough to win TvT at silver/gold level (it's what i do) The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level. | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On March 08 2012 19:51 Gheed wrote: No. Everyone in bronze sits on one base (sometimes 2 if they are a zerg), doesn't scout beyond an initial worker, and never moves out. The only time you ever get "cheesed" in bronze is a poorly executed 6 pool or a cannon rush. For the latter, they usually they have no idea how to actually cannon rush so they just walk in your base and try to build them right in front of you or something dumb like that. For the 6 pool, they generally just attack move (or whatever it is they do, since bronze players evidently don't know how to attack move) and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. If they were actually cheesing correctly they wouldn't be in bronze. Further, anyone who portrait farms and actually plays out the games must lose just as many games to stay in bronze. So, there is no reason to be "stuck in bronze." Period. The reason everyone says to just macro your way out is because IT'S TRUE. Bronze is just as bad as it ever was. People who try to justify their bronziness by arguing that "players have gotten better," are just trying to come up with excuses. I don't know when you last played in Bronze, but the only accurate statement in that post is that very rarely do players scout beyond their initial worker (if that). Players will still (if the game goes on for long enough) expo to 3 or 4 bases, and are aggressive. Typical 6pools are micro'd and cannon rushes are built such that if you don't have a well placed OL or well timed drone scout, you'll miss it. Of course you'll sometimes run into the guy who's brand new to the game and doesn't know what he's doing, but that's because it's Bronze league and that's where new players end up. I dislike the saying "macro your way out". Just because high level players can macro at such an advanced level by comparison and win by just building queens or something doesn't mean that it's the answer for lower level players. It's pretty obvious that if a Bronze level player could macro like a Diamond+ level player, they wouldn't be in Bronze very long. The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing. | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On March 26 2012 11:25 eden-san wrote: I didn't say Day9 didn't cover the basics, but the difference between the basics and the current metagame is that you can't study/analyze your way out of it, only relentless and targeted practice will improve it... And personally I learn much more basics and tricks from pros streaming (who clearly focus on specific details of their plays) rather than Day9 (and don't get me wrong, I think Day9 is amazing as a person and I really love watching his stream). Watching pros replays, you won't really pick up many BASICS, I'd say. Most pros (if they talk at all) are focusing on higher level analysis of the games. I enjoy Day9 for basic stuff. I rarely watch the actual game analysis, but rather focus on his dailies about practice, macro, mouse movement, etc. | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
The frustration from Bronze players comes when they aren't missing inject cycles, when they don't have idle larvae, etc etc for other races... and they're still losing. This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze. | ||
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Desti
Germany138 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:02 prOpSaiton wrote: The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level. Why should macro always the problem, if most of the people don't survive the first 8 minutes of the game? | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 26 2012 12:17 Jhimmibhob wrote: I know for a fact that I'm not a natural Bronze, because I've been playing bronzies for months on end, doing incessant research, and have won precisely ONE game.: Blizzard needs to establish a Zinc bracket for people with superannuated reflexes, and who still curse the absence of a "PAUSE" button to scratch one's chin, pour a drink, and try to recall which antagonist's unit does what. Man, I would love to see one of your replays. I helped another guy before who I think had your same problem, if I had to guess. He analyzed things far past the point he needed to, focusing on things that, on a scale of 1-100 of importance, I'd say were about a 2 or 3, oblivious to all the 100's! | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 27 2012 00:46 ZackAttack wrote: This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze. They'll win more games, they probably won't win every game. Particularly as Zerg, where its easy to have the wrong stuff for what your opponent is doing. Its statements like this that are particularly frustrating for newbies, because as soon as they do nail their injects and lose a game, they'll assume high level players who dispense such advice are full of shit. | ||
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Legion710
Canada423 Posts
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On March 27 2012 00:49 Desti wrote: Why should macro always the problem, if most of the people don't survive the first 8 minutes of the game? They don't survive because their macro is terrible. It's not just making a ton of stuff at once, macro is about efficiently getting resources and infrastructure too. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:02 prOpSaiton wrote: The unit composition has(in most cases) very little to do with the fact that people are stuck in the lower leagues. Macro will win more battles than drops in all cases on that level. The fact remains that spamming nothing but marines as Terran is far more successful against Zerg, moderately more successful against Protoss, and not very successful at all against another Terran. | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On March 27 2012 00:46 ZackAttack wrote: This would never happen. If you arent missing inject cycles, and you never have idle larvae, you will win every time in bronze. It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze. Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 27 2012 02:22 DarK[A] wrote: It doesn't sound like you have played in Bronze. Bronze is a different type of league... to be honest, I had a more consistent experience when I was Gold. I still have no idea why I was demoted to Bronze, but it's like a black hole. Sure, I can walk all over some people, but then I get absolutely crushed by players who are probably portrait farming. It is posts like these that keep me coming back to this thread. It's just too darn interesting. The same thing happened when I used to play Halo competitively, except back then, it was much harder to find quality practice partners. Everybody thought they were good. Everybody. The problem was, almost nobody actually was. So, you could tell someone why they were bad and what they needed to fix, but it was much easier for them to say that you were wrong and they were just having a bad day. There was no bronze league so everyone was grandmaster in their own mind. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm better on a team." It became our team's inside joke. edit: The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not playing portrait farmers every other game, the sooner you can get better. You are doing something wrong, and it's huge. Bronze players aren't doing something small wrong. They're doing some very wrong, and they're doing it well. I'm seriously not trying to be mean, but let's not kid ourselves. If you're on TL, you probably want to get better, so the first step is to admit you have a big problem. | ||
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milodon
Chile42 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LiPrG.png) Damn it took time. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 27 2012 04:04 milodon wrote: Hi guys... I just wanted to do an update to the people who took the time (and pain) to watch my replays (I posted a bunch of them some days ago in this forum). The comments helped me a lot; I corrected a few things, started a winning streak and today I was promoted to silver! So Im not perma-bronze after all... Damn it took time. Whoa! Nice dude! Post some more replays and you will be Gold in no time  | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On March 27 2012 04:02 danl9rm wrote: It is posts like these that keep me coming back to this thread. It's just too darn interesting. The same thing happened when I used to play Halo competitively, except back then, it was much harder to find quality practice partners. Everybody thought they were good. Everybody. The problem was, almost nobody actually was. So, you could tell someone why they were bad and what they needed to fix, but it was much easier for them to say that you were wrong and they were just having a bad day. There was no bronze league so everyone was grandmaster in their own mind. I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm better on a team." It became our team's inside joke. edit: The sooner you admit to yourself that you're not playing portrait farmers every other game, the sooner you can get better. You are doing something wrong, and it's huge. Bronze players aren't doing something small wrong. They're doing some very wrong, and they're doing it well. I'm seriously not trying to be mean, but let's not kid ourselves. If you're on TL, you probably want to get better, so the first step is to admit you have a big problem. I'm just going by what I've personally seen. When I was in Gold, I had a nice, consistent experience. When I lost, 95% of the time it was a great game, and I just got outplayed. When I won, I felt good about it. I dialed in on what these games felt like and you can't really do that in Bronze, because there's such a variation between games. One ZvT, the guy had every unit. It was like that SOTG with Artosis complaining about that. "HOW DO YOU COUNTER EVERY UNIT? THERE IS NO COUNTER" Anyway, needless to say, the guy had no idea what he was doing and I was able to easily kill off his expos as they came up and then push through his main and win. My first game after my 5 placement matches was a ZvZ against a plat player, which I felt good about and won with muta/ling handily. But now that I'm in Bronze, I come across players who I end up beating with my scouting lings just because they're already so far behind, and then I come across players who hit timing attacks and run me over. EDIT: I played competitive Halo too, and I definitely know what you mean about that collective mindset. I admitted I was shit though, because I always got run over by a couple of my friends who were way better than I was. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 27 2012 04:34 DarK[A] wrote: I'm just going by what I've personally seen. When I was in Gold, I had a nice, consistent experience. When I lost, 95% of the time it was a great game, and I just got outplayed. When I won, I felt good about it. I dialed in on what these games felt like and you can't really do that in Bronze, because there's such a variation between games. One ZvT, the guy had every unit. It was like that SOTG with Artosis complaining about that. "HOW DO YOU COUNTER EVERY UNIT? THERE IS NO COUNTER" Anyway, needless to say, the guy had no idea what he was doing and I was able to easily kill off his expos as they came up and then push through his main and win. My first game after my 5 placement matches was a ZvZ against a plat player, which I felt good about and won with muta/ling handily. But now that I'm in Bronze, I come across players who I end up beating with my scouting lings just because they're already so far behind, and then I come across players who hit timing attacks and run me over. EDIT: I played competitive Halo too, and I definitely know what you mean about that collective mindset. I admitted I was shit though, because I always got run over by a couple of my friends who were way better than I was. I read what I posted again, and I admit, it sounded harsh. It's not any less true, I just sounded like a jerk. So, my bad :/ Anyway, I've taught all my friends how to play almost every game we've ever played. Call me good at video games, lol, what a gift, right? Almost every time, there is some strategical "elephant in the room" that they just cannot see. Somehow they are blind to it. When I say, "Uh, dude, what about that elephant...?" they, a lot of times <jaw drop> "wat. wow." It just literally never occurred to them. I'd watch your replays if you cared to share This thread is just funny because it reminded me of back when my team was one of the top halo teams in the nation. I'm not dropping names, just saying. We'd go to some rinky dink local tournament that nobody was at except other locals and we'd smash their faces. Most people would say, "WOW, they're so goood." It was usually 2nd place that said something like, "They're not that good. They got lucky. And all they used was rockets." or something like that. We left so many teams in disarray. They knew they were going to win, and then they didn't - not even close. What was funny is that they even got to watch us play beforehand, and would openly say we weren't any good. They were only waving the flag of ignorance, though. They would watch us do things, but they didn't know why we would do it. For instance, we might throw a grenade down the hall. All they saw was us miss or "waste" a grenade, not knowing that we were a.clearing up a shadow where people like to snipe from, b. make noise in that room only to double back and enter the other way, c. purposely showing the opponent that that hallway was dangerous and we knew they were there, so they would run the other way (basically herding cattle). It depended on the situation, but those things were happening every second. They just didn't know it because they weren't good enough to. They thought they could just copy our routes or camping spots or shooting techniques (call them build orders) and they'd be at our level. Strategy comes in different levels. What I see a lot is newer players listening to state of the game or whatever and picking up on high level ideas that they couldn't possibly implement correctly because they don't have the foundation to place them on. This is a crude example, but it's pertinent. I've seen players be told to macro and don't let their minerals get "above 500." So, what do they do? Easy. They stop building so many workers. lol? I've also seen them answer that question a different way. They queue up all their racks full of units so that they're more backed up than Tokyo in rush hour. They're fixing a major problem of wasted minerals by breaking an even more important rule of "build more scvs; build more infrastructure." They are building a pyramid up-side down. You don't become a pro by doing the few things that make them pros. You become a pro by doing all the big things that separate them from the masses before they even develop their in-game personality. In short: learn the basics first. They're the fastest way to get good. There's just way too much to say. I'm going to stop now, hah. | ||
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pRodg
Jordan5 Posts
I personally started playing a month and a half ago; give or take a few days, and I'm already in gold (EU). I got promoted yesterday though, but in general I stayed in bronze for 2 weeks, I play on my friend's old account, he was in silver, so since i laddered when I had 0 info about anything (first RTS) I demoted it to bronze since the start of the newest season (6 I believe). And from there I slowly worked my way up, I had some friends help me out, but not so much, only when I get really stuck on some TvX and can't figure out what to do, I guess its because I'm generally a competitive player, successful @ cs 1.6 / DotA on a national level, but I just switched to sc2 because its easier to practice (solo!) and I find it extremely enjoyable. Some people are still in bronze simply because they don't really care about BO's and macroing properly, they just play however they see fit, they're the person in-charge of their own gameplay, they don't want to follow certain steps like macroing properly and what not, they do whatever they feel like doing at any given moment; Oh, I have 100 gold @ 9/11, sure, I'll just go make a depot, then I'll make rax at 11, skipping my SCV, just because I have 150 gold. And so on. Nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't expect to be making a living out of it, its all good. IMO. #Edit: A guy helped me out at the very beggining, telling what to build and when while we played 2v2, HUGE respect for that guy, as I got the impression that the community in general is good mannered, and he was very helpful. | ||
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Jhimmibhob
United States6 Posts
On March 27 2012 00:57 danl9rm wrote: Man, I would love to see one of your replays. I don't like to think of myself as cruel enough to inflict that kind of thing on a person! But if I figure out the how-tos, I might take you up on it. On March 27 2012 00:57 danl9rm wrote: I helped another guy before who I think had your same problem, if I had to guess. He analyzed things far past the point he needed to, focusing on things that, on a scale of 1-100 of importance, I'd say were about a 2 or 3, oblivious to all the 100's! I can believe it--the frills seem easier to communicate on a replay or tournament commentary, and I'm sure they can make all the difference between two high-level players. It seems to be the ultra-basic stuff that's hard to explain, and that a player either grasps in a flash or doesn't grasp at all. Pretty much all the advice & resources out there target players who've mastered that much on their own. But not everyone's cut out for Silver, or even the mid-upper Bronze reaches. | ||
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GloPikkle
United States197 Posts
Strategy comes in different levels. What I see a lot is newer players listening to state of the game or whatever and picking up on high level ideas that they couldn't possibly implement correctly because they don't have the foundation to place them on. This is a crude example, but it's pertinent. I've seen players be told to macro and don't let their minerals get "above 500." So, what do they do? Easy. They stop building so many workers. lol? I've also seen them answer that question a different way. They queue up all their racks full of units so that they're more backed up than Tokyo in rush hour. They're fixing a major problem of wasted minerals by breaking an even more important rule of "build more scvs; build more infrastructure." They are building a pyramid up-side down. You don't become a pro by doing the few things that make them pros. You become a pro by doing all the big things that separate them from the masses before they even develop their in-game personality. In short: learn the basics first. They're the fastest way to get good. I agree with this. Was coaching a friend who started in Silver and he would watch Day9 and stuff and would attempt to do fancy things during fights like pick up tanks with medivacs and placed them on cliffs and try to stutter step his heart out with stimmed marines. That's great if you have 150+ apm and are on top of your macro but when you're at 29 drones 12 minutes into the game with 3 bases and 4 barracks, there's so many basic things wrong that it doesn't matter that you've never gone about 400 minerals. Because you're at 60 food at 12 minutes. I played 2v2 with a friend who said he was going cloaked banshees. He spends the whole game harassing with 5 cloaked banshees and 15 minutes into the game he's at 74 supply on 1.25 bases. I get that "macro better" means a lot of things and Bronzies may not understand how to practically implement that. Here's a basic outline: 1) Don't get supply blocked 2) Unless you're trading units, always be growing your supply (army and workers) 3) Expand as often as you can without being retarded (set a random benchmark like every 5 minutes) 4) Keep upgrading both in tech and in unit upgrades 5) Build your infrastructure constantly There are a few early game situations where having the correct decision-making matters like 6-pools and cannon rushes but even most 1-base all ins are so poorly executed at Bronze that decision-making becomes almost irrelevant. There's not much that you need to execute well to defend an 8:30 4-gate with no proxy pylon. I've played at the bottom of Bronze league (trolling on a friend's account) and they are indeed HORRIBLE. Even top Bronze is pretty abysmal. Better than it used to be, but still abysmal. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 27 2012 06:38 GloPikkle wrote: There are a few early game situations where having the correct decision-making matters like 6-pools and cannon rushes but even most 1-base all ins are so poorly executed at Bronze that decision-making becomes almost irrelevant. There's not much that you need to execute well to defend an 8:30 4-gate with no proxy pylon. I'd suggest that an exception to this would be for bronze league zerg players, who need to make one key decision correctly -- when to switch from worker to unit production and vice versa. | ||
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