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Bluelightz
Indonesia2463 Posts
Im the Terran if you dont know ClickHereForReplay I accept the fact that I am forever bronze, I have fun like all you guys do when laddering  .I use a build order and such, I now I keep on getting supply blocked(my ultimate menace >.>), sometimes have micro blunders(right click somewhere instead of amove and get owned by a toss deathball). Regards, Bluelightz  EDIT: Regarding zergs, I do agree that I never faced a bronze zerg who can inject consistently and have queen energy is constantly down. | ||
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Zythius
Norway94 Posts
On March 27 2012 23:01 PeanutsNJam wrote: Queen/CC/Nexus energy, creep spread, worker count, and "keeping your money low" are game changing factors. It's called macro. Arguably, nexus energy is the least important. It also doesn't change the fact that you can [poorly] 4gate your way comfortably into gold. It worked in Season 1, it'll work in Season 9999. Yes, focus on the least significant part of my comment. Good job. By the way, when did we start using "larva injects" as a substitute word for "macro"? I only talked about one aspect of macro, not the entire thing, which of course is game changing. Perfect larva injects on the other hand... On the top yes, but you can survive many leagues without it. | ||
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JethroSC
Sweden83 Posts
I kept playing, no promo even after that sick streak, even though my MMR was against Silvers and Golds all the frickin time, and I beat them. Nothing. Then I watched a Diamond-friend play Zerg, and being a fast learner, I started playing Zerg. I fucking CRUSHED, and switched to Zerg instantly, and then I got promoted, a couple weeks into Season 5. After playing Zerg for quite a while I got really good actually. Then I tried Protoss again, and I by playing Zerg and playing against Protoss, I had gotten better as Protoss, but I just noticed how I fucking SUCKED as Toss. Really, I was terrible, and I felt bad.  The Season I switched to Zerg, 5, I had 197-198 wins at the end, I just played a ton. Some days I'd play around 12 hours, watched a ton of MLG/GSL and downloaded replays and watched Day9/SoTG, anything. Now I'm Silver, and I've been quite inactive this Season, but I'm currently trying out Terran, perhaps to get a better look at ZvT/TvZ, perhaps I want to make a switch. Who knows, after some games, 6-7, I think it's fun. + ZvZ was a pain in the ass. Keep fighting Bronzies. ^^ | ||
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TR.Mutank
Japan15 Posts
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JethroSC
Sweden83 Posts
On March 28 2012 01:49 TR.Mutank wrote: The way you rank up in this game is really awkward. Because you could play a person in gold league, beat them, and still the get the same points for your division just as you beat a fellow bronze player. Heck I even got knocked down a league even though I won my placement matches this season. Yep, the pointssystem works pretty bad. And sometimes the Matchmaking-system is pretty awkward too, got matched against some Gold with 3-4 k wins, he completely steamrolled me. It's sad sometimes. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 27 2012 17:34 Lysenko wrote: I'd more characterize the argument as being that different bronze players are held back by different problems, so categorical statements that things like injects are always completely horrible may have a counterexample out there somewhere. It wasn't posted to show how awesome bronze mechanics are. Yes, that was my point in posting that replay. As Gheed noted in his exhaustive essay, there's a whole bunch of things he was doing wrong, but injects weren't anywhere near the top of that list. They're on pretty much the same level as mine when I played Zerg in gold. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On March 28 2012 01:49 TR.Mutank wrote: The way you rank up in this game is really awkward. Because you could play a person in gold league, beat them, and still the get the same points for your division just as you beat a fellow bronze player. Heck I even got knocked down a league even though I won my placement matches this season. It's not that simple. If you read the big guide thread on the MMR system, you'll see that it makes sense and is fair, but you need a long term perspective. You might very well be demoted even if you win your placement match if you had a bad MMR last season. The fact that you say "placement matches" also makes a huge difference since that means you refrained from playing for a whole season which, according to some people at least, means your MMR is reset, so your previous placement doesn't matter and you probably just had bad luck with the people you were matched against, which doesn't matter since you should keep winning and be promoted more or less immediately. | ||
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cutiebutt
8 Posts
tl;dr If you're playing decently, you should be out of bronze in a ridiculously low amount of time. It has nothing to do with high apm, control group splitting your units, and any of these more demanding skills. My biggest advice for anyone who would like to leave bronze soon is to simply scout often to be able to react and try to keep making units out of production facilities. You could have 20 apm and horrible unit composition but this alone can take you to gold. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
"Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad" Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
However, since then I tried to play some Tribes and CS GO, and I'm experiencing the same thing. It's just this feeling of how immensely horrible I am that no amount of reading and watching and trying to do the right thing helps. It's been quite a painful revelation, really. Now I never thought of myself as a particularly talented RTS player, but when I decided to learn/improve in RTS I somehow did continuously improve, and the same thing is most definitely not happening in FPS games I tried to take somewhat seriously. So my conclusion is indeed that not everyone can really get into all kinds of games. | ||
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JakeBurton
74 Posts
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement. "Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad" Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot. I would like to add an observation I made when watching some of my friends new to starcraft play: the best predictor of ladder position is the physical speed with which a person performs actions. I therefore theorize that knowing what to do (make things!) isn't even that important compared to just doing something fast. Corollary: Many pros and near pros are where they are because they think quickly and move quickly, not necessarily because they have greater understanding of the game. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On March 28 2012 09:32 JakeBurton wrote: I would like to add an observation I made when watching some of my friends new to starcraft play: the best predictor of ladder position is the physical speed with which a person performs actions. I therefore theorize that knowing what to do (make things!) isn't even that important compared to just doing something fast. Corollary: Many pros and near pros are where they are because they think quickly and move quickly, not necessarily because they have greater understanding of the game. Not necessarily. It has been said time and time again that Flash has relatively slow hand speed compared to other elite pro-gamers, but his movement are always deliberate, well-thought out, and ridiculously intelligent. Dignitas.Sjow and Grubby are also "slow" players, but they can still beat many players that are "faster" because they have a deep understanding of the game. I really think all pro-gamers have a great understanding of their respective games which transcends what normal players (bronze - midmasters) have going through their heads. At the highest level of play having a high hand-speed obviously helps, but playing around 500 APM never let Vibe become a top-tier pro-gamer. Like Day[9] once said, you don't need high APM to be good at Starcraft, but to take that step from "really good player" to "super Gosu" you need high APM. None of us are on that level of "really good player" quite yet. | ||
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scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On March 28 2012 09:26 chenchen wrote: It's so frustrating when players in lower leagues analyze tiny details of their gameplay that they pinpoint for improvement. "Oh I need to scout more" "Oh I need to learn timings" "Oh my injects are a little bit off" "Oh my marine split was bad" Yeahhhh . . . honestly. Don't even let these trivial things cross your mind until you're like . . . mid-masters, because up to that level, it's all about making stuff and not being an idiot. Honestly, you're an asshole. To play at masters level you need a couple of things that have no connection to being an idiot. Decent reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, multitasking abilities. Some people will be gifted in those areas and they will do way better in SC2 then the average Joe. Also, some of them may act as total jerks. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
On March 28 2012 10:01 scypio wrote: Honestly, you're an asshole. To play at masters level you need a couple of things that have no connection to being an idiot. Decent reaction speed, hand-eye coordination, multitasking abilities. Some people will be gifted in those areas and they will do way better in SC2 then the average Joe. Also, some of them may act as total jerks. My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are. It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 28 2012 13:54 chenchen wrote: My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are. It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics. True, but at the same time I wouldn't like to see someone bringing up 2-3 second gaps in probe production or warp-ins, when they're building nothing but stalkers against MMM and losing battles with a 2:1 ratio. Edit : Well, they should bring it up, but mention chargealots and colossi first! | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 28 2012 13:54 chenchen wrote: They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are. You know, everyone always says that, but I don't know anyone who's gotten out of bronze who hasn't improved those areas substantially to do so. Having "good macro" doesn't happen unless you can survive long enough to make some units. Edit: Obviously the standards on all those things are a lot lower in bronze league. However, knowing how to notice and react to even a poorly-executed, late bunker or cannon rush, rush to cloaked units,etc. is a prerequisite for a player winning enough games to get promoted, and those are mostly scouting, timing, and micro problems. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
On March 28 2012 13:54 chenchen wrote: My point is when lower league players look at their own replays to analyze mistakes, they get too caught up in small details. They actually think that they need to improve on micro technique or sense of timing or map awareness or scouting when that stuff is irrelevant until . . . . a long ways from where they are. It's like a beginner at soccer who cant even kick the ball straight focusing on tactics. I disagree with the bolded part, because I think that these things can be a limiting factor. I think you're assuming too high a baseline for them. I just got through watching one of the 'more bad games' on the Potatostream vod channel, the one that starts at about 25:00. It's an interesting game: our hero makes barracks, builds a bunker, builds an expansion and maynards workers. The early macro isn't stellar, but nor is it remedial. He hides an SCV to watch for his opponent's expansion, makes more barracks and techs to starport. All in all I wouldn't have been able to say "This guy is in bronze" with any confidence just based on the first few minutes. Then things get more relevant. Our hero takes a third way off in the corner of the map. Obviously this is a risky gambit, but there's nothing wrong with taking a risk if you need that risk to pay off in order to win. He didn't. He was up two bases to a confirmed one with a substantial standing army. There was no need to conceal a third. That was the first 'hmm'. He spent scans (mules didn't feature prominently in this game, to be fair) checking out his opponent's base, and saw nothing much of anything except siege tanks at intervals around the edge. A couple of minutes later he sees a flock of banshees crossing the map - six or seven of them. He has a mass of marines, two engineering bays, and plenty of energy at his command centres. "Ok, he's so got this," I think to myself. A couple of minutes after that I was almost shouting at the screen. All our hero had to do was make himself secure using the 3000 minerals he had accumulated and the game was effectively over. But he didn't. He just... faffed. He chased the banshees around from his natural to his main, wasting scans, not building turrets, not building vikings. It would have been the work of a few seconds to box the workers in his main and build a bunch of turrets, then do the same when his natural, and then chase the banshees around to prevent them taking down the static defence. Or even build one turret at a time in the middle of his army, and let the natural die - the other guy wasn't going anywhere. But he simply didn't do the things that would win him the game. He just gave up. He actually said - on stream - "There's nothing I can do. He's got siege tanks." Then he conga'd up his whole army (pausing to destroy some rocks along the way) and proceeded to feed it into the maw of the three or four tanks stationed on his opponent's ramp, as though to demonstrate the truth of his assessment. Though I initially took the 'concentrate on macro' school of thought here on TL to heart, I started to have my doubts a couple of months ago after seeing my own long-stagnant standard of play leap forward upon switching my focus to decision-making (after watching the incomparable Stoic Intimate ZvX VoDs). It actually helped un-cap my macro because I wasn't dithering around being cagey with my resources. This replay is undoubtedly a datapoint in the same direction: macro is not necessarily the limiting factor at any given point in a player's progression, even if it’s really bad. What stood out a mile in Potatostream's VoD was that his opening build was ok, his macro in pursuit of that build good enough to keep his head above water certainly in silver and maybe even gold based on my experience, but his decision making was either random, wrong, or absent entirely. More than anything, there was a pervasive sense of connections not made on a number of levels. He was a base up, but had no idea what that meant he should do or what being allowed to get a base ahead should make him careful of. The sneaky third was random, and the way he tried to deal with the banshees demonstrated complete tunnel vision, as though he had once seen someone deal with banshees using marines, stim and scans and was just trying to ape that, with no thought as to the next step. Indeed, everything he did (bar the final suicide march) looked like an attempt to mimic something he had seen someone do, but without any grasp of why, of implications or alternatives. It was a bit like watching someone trying to do a jigsaw who hadn’t cottoned on to the fact that it was supposed to make a big picture at the end. I'm convinced that advising someone who's playing like that to build more stuff and attack won't help in the long run, because it's just another list of instructions for them to blindly copy and hope it works. It's a better list, but it doesn't fix the fact that they just don't know the overall 'shape' of the game they're trying to win - or even that there's a shape to be apprehended. By the way, If anyone in this thread is interested (I’ve PM’d a few but might have missed some), I’m running an analysis that requires large numbers of sequential bronze-level replays from single players. I’m paying $50 via PayPal for the must useful submission; the details are in my blog. | ||
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Leargle
United States173 Posts
I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve | ||
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freakhill
Japan463 Posts
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players... I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve Too bad for you. I am entirely satisfied. | ||
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Zythius
Norway94 Posts
On March 28 2012 19:05 Leargle wrote: You're satisfied with being in the lower 20% of active players... I wouldn't be. Never settle, push yourself to improve I LOL'd. We may have some bronze/silver players that are stuck AND are putting in a lot of time, but I still maintain that the big reason is time. Nobody is satisfied with being bronze, but most might have other stuff to do than SC2. It takes time to improve and time to win matches. These are the ONLY two relevant factors to advancing up the leagues. | ||
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