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On March 01 2012 16:49 Berailfor wrote:I think people's reasoning early game is good, too expensive, easy to deny, too slow unloading. But lategame I have no fucking clue why zergs don't build them. Like lategame when you have 4 bases 8 geysers you can easily afford a couple nydii and not be affected almost at all. They have such good uses and are SOOOO scary. Think about that, lategame the potential of a nydus is huge. Go from base to base, always have the threat of being able to nydus your opponent. And if it fails sure it's a loss, so is a failed drop. But the potential is so much more than a drop, for the cost of 1 (or 2 if you include main building) muta you can send your whole army into their base if they are out of position and if they are, their options are total crap. A. Go defend just to see the Zerg retreat to base. Or B. Counter attack to have the Zerg do a ton of damage and be back to defend. I think once zergs realize how valuable they can be and how scary in general they can be (forcing tons of edge buildings for vision etc) they will start using them more lategame when money isn't a big issue. Its such a cheap investment lategame for it's potential damage. And like other people said, for multiple-purpose uses like having more mobility around your side of the map or for rallied units if your pushing the enemy (while trying to sneak one in opponents main or 3rd  )
Sorry, but what you are saying is completely absurd. It's never a cheap investment, unless you have your final army and some ressources left, but why make nydius when your army is made of broodlords ?
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Nydus are only used for all ins or semi all-ins (like an hydra push), because they are so expensive that you must do damage. As long as they don't change the cost, there won't be any other use.
Let's say you use 2 nydus worm, it's just as expensive as a mothership with almost no hp, no damage output, no cloaking, no high ground vision, no vortex, mass recall only 1 units at a time and can't even choose the starting location of the recall.
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@ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
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On March 01 2012 16:07 Splynn wrote:
I played zerg a bit towards the end of Beta and during the second season of ladder, and I used nydus pretty frequently. The one thing I came away with was that using it to sneak into someone's base is simply not a good idea. Way too unreliable.
Where it really shined was in base defense, sort of similar to how JD uses nydus in BW. Instead of taking a close third, I take the third on the other side of the map. With good vision I can see your army coming to kill it, and start unloading the nydus before you get there. If you undercommit, I kill the force and hop back into the nydus; you are behind. If you fully commit I either defend and win or retreat and rebuild the third, safe in the fact that your army is on the other side of the map.
Or popping it up behind your army as it advances; using it similar to how Protoss uses pylons in pushes. constantly teleporting speedlings across the map and leaning with them is pretty good. Or while pushing the third pop a nydus up pretty close to the second. I don't like these as much as defense, but it can certainly work. They're also pretty damn good for base races.
Why don't we see zerg doing these things? Because what zerg is doing right now is working pretty fine for them. Doing these things is more work than they need to do to win games. But as the game evolves these things might be more important to zerg strategy. And I wouldn't be opposed to a nydus hp buff; they die so easily...
Wouldn't units running over creep be faster than unloading a nydus? Unless you expanding to opposite corners on tal'darim or some shit. It just seems like everything nyduses do, drops or just moving units normally does better.
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On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote:
@ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
you are dropping from X Overlords at once. So you are unloading X units at once
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Nydus needs some buffs before we see regular usage pretty much.
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On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote:
@ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
With drops you can pick up and retreat if the defender reacted fast enough to prevent damage.
It's not ideal, but you can still try again later even if the defender is on his guard.
With a nydus, if you retreat, you loose your investment, and trying again is not really worth it, the changes of success are too low considering how much each attempt cost you.
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Nydus network : 200 Gas
Nydus Worms 150 Gas EACH
Make a noise to let your opponent know
Can easily be scouted and killed by workers
Costs 350 gas for one worm
Costs 350 gas for one worm
Costs 350 gas for one worm
Units come out one at a time when you unload
Costs 350 gas for one worm.
I'd rather buy overlord drops.
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On March 01 2012 17:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote:
@ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something? you are dropping from X Overlords at once. So you are unloading X units at once
Hypothetically speaking then, what if your using 1 Overlord to drop, what would be the difference? Say an overlord full of infestors to harass the mineral line, or full of banelings (although you never really see 1 overlord full of banelings used to harass, but you get the point)
I mean, nydus does have its advantages which people are overlooking, right?
- you don't lose your units if the drop fails
- you can bring your units back if you need to pull out
- you don't risk losing x amount of supply if somehow your drop goes horrendously wrong
- if your investing into nydus worms anyway and you are actually going to have 2+ nyduses at a time for faster unit throughput, then chances are you'd do it because you have the economy to support it anyway
- possible mind games?
So far I'd have to agree with the people who are saying that it's just an undiscovered tactic that will be used when the metagame changes, atleast thats what it seems like :/
@Elean: Thats understandable, some of it makes sense to me 
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On March 01 2012 17:09 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 16:49 Berailfor wrote:I think people's reasoning early game is good, too expensive, easy to deny, too slow unloading. But lategame I have no fucking clue why zergs don't build them. Like lategame when you have 4 bases 8 geysers you can easily afford a couple nydii and not be affected almost at all. They have such good uses and are SOOOO scary. Think about that, lategame the potential of a nydus is huge. Go from base to base, always have the threat of being able to nydus your opponent. And if it fails sure it's a loss, so is a failed drop. But the potential is so much more than a drop, for the cost of 1 (or 2 if you include main building) muta you can send your whole army into their base if they are out of position and if they are, their options are total crap. A. Go defend just to see the Zerg retreat to base. Or B. Counter attack to have the Zerg do a ton of damage and be back to defend. I think once zergs realize how valuable they can be and how scary in general they can be (forcing tons of edge buildings for vision etc) they will start using them more lategame when money isn't a big issue. Its such a cheap investment lategame for it's potential damage. And like other people said, for multiple-purpose uses like having more mobility around your side of the map or for rallied units if your pushing the enemy (while trying to sneak one in opponents main or 3rd ) Sorry, but what you are saying is completely absurd. It's never a cheap investment, unless you have your final army and some ressources left, but why make nydius when your army is made of broodlords ? . Nydus are only used for all ins or semi all-ins (like an hydra push), because they are so expensive that you must do damage. As long as they don't change the cost, there won't be any other use. Let's say you use 2 nydus worm, it's just as expensive as a mothership with almost no hp, no damage output, no cloaking, no high ground vision, no vortex, mass recall only 1 units at a time and can't even choose the starting location of the recall.
Okay first off.. You have to spread the cost of the initial building between every nydus you use meaning if you use 4 then each cost about 125/125. And second. A medivac is 100/100 you think it should be cheaper to spawn that that?!?! Your ridiculous. And lategame 2 Mutas or 1 broodlord is a ez trade for the potential damage. And have you used lategame nydus? Probably not. But thats a damn lot more ground to cover and a lot harder to deny. That combined with a good Zerg player who knows your army position could do a lot of damage and it isn't just a mass recall. It's a double mass recall if you want to put it like that. (with 1 nydus). Why you would use 2 besides from an allin I have no idea. Your just spouting random crap and you've never even tried it. Sorry but 2 Mutas isn't expensive at all lategame when you have 4 geysers. So back at you, what your saying (and comparing) is completely absurd.
Edit: okay didn't realize it was 200 gas just for network. That is pretty expensive. But still lategame it could totally be viable and the fact the more zergs don't use it really is dissapointing. There's many games where the Zerg is maxed and banking money. Why not just throw one down and see what it can do.
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@Daniel:
- You can bring units back with overlords.
- You do lose your units if the drop fails...the nydus worm can be killed so easily and the units go back 1 by 1.
- 300 Gas per nydus attack now?
- you can't attack their main with a nydus worm because workers kill it.
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Nydus really has to be used correctly to be worth it. Something like this:
Place it in vision of your enemy, but make sure, that he has to move out to kill it. Keep your army near it but out of vision.
Scenario A: He moves out and tries to kill it.
-> He just exposed a bunch of his units, allowing you to easily kill them. If he doesn't kill the Nydus, see scenario B.
Scenario B: He calls your trap and let's it go up.
-> You have super fast reinforcements, which allows you to put on a lot of pressure or even bust through his defenses.
Seriously. Why do people think that you have to hide it? Your enemies know how powerful a Nydus is. Letting one go up can unleash all kinds of pain, so just put it in plain view. Every time someone has to choose between letting one go up and get out of position he can only lose. Put players in those situations. And if they for some reason don't notice it, they are also screwed. I think once people finally start to see these situations the Nydus usage will increase. However, players are fine without it, so there really isn't a reason to use them, which imo is why the don't get used too much.
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I think it loads and unloads way too slowly. Nydus would always be used late game if it was like the Brood War nydus (units go in and pop out instantly).
Terran drops your fifth and snipes the nydus before 5 lings are out even if you build 8 spine crawlers around it.
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As cheese? It's pretty bad, but one of Zerg's few cheese options.
As lategame mobility and harass? I think it's massively underused. When your opponent hits a critical base count of about 4 or 5, it starts getting more and more difficult to maintain control over all those areas. Being able to put pressure on your opponent is something incredibly potent. It doesn't even have to be a serious commitment: just 10 supply of Zerglings at T3 is enough to require a large portion of your opponent's army to pull back. I imagine we'll be seeing them pop up more in the future.
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Zergs need to learn to use them in defensive purposes to flank and break tanklines for example. Nydas worms are ridiculously underestimated especially lategame they can be used for zerg to defend 8bases at same time.
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I used to think the SC2 nydus worm was superior to the BW one, but the cost, sound, and slow unloading are huge X's. Less HP also sucks.
At the very least, I think the nydus network should have a nydus canal ability that is cheaper and makes no sound but can be built on creep (and would stop working if there's no creep to prevent a hatchery-cancel-creep exploit).
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I was always under the impression that it was just too risky. They are way too weak for their cost. They unload too slowly, you may as well just have a queen and spines as they wont die as fast. The risk vs. reward currently just isn't worth it and there are better options for offense and defense. It would be nice if Blizzard took a look at it more closely.
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I sometimes use them to reinforce my main army if I'm setting up camp outside his base or denying a third or something.
But if you're in that position, you're most likely in the lead and should be winning anyway. At best it saves a few seconds.
The biggest issue I have with them is that you have to unload them each time a new unit enters the main one.
Let's say you're sitting comfortably on 4 bases on tal'darim altar, you use a nydus to reinforce your army somewhere nearby your enemy. Instead of rallying your units to your army, you rally them to the nydus network.
And your hatcheries are at very different locations, some units will enter, you click unload, then the other units enter and you need to unload again. It's alot of APM "wasted" that you could've saved by simply rallying your units there.
You really need to unload as soon as possible, it's so easily sniped off and you've lost a ridiculous amount of time.
I just don't see the use of it at the moment, not a single game has it been the key factor to me winning, but then again, I'm probably not using it right and need to learn to play.
I will continue to use overlord drops, it's far more viable in my opinion.
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I don't think nydusing someone's main is practical but they could be deployed in advance to deny third or re-enforce a hydra push.
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A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit..
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I'd like to see it used more as a reinforcement point, behind your offensive army. Similar to a "JulyZerg" situation, where you're streaming units in, you just make the trip a lot shorter. But that's a very specific situation in comparison to current zerg lategame (being very broodlord/infestor intensive, a slow and steady army.)
The major problem to me is the way it is seen, as a sneak attack. The nydus network is an alternate rally system which has potential to do sneak attacks, but it's not all it is. Overlord drops are much more effective at that job. It's "cheaper" especially over long periods of time. Immune to workers and quieter.
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EPT
