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Im kind of confusted with the stance TL is taking on this. It seems that the referral program made it pretty clear that you didnt agree with the pricing and lack of free stream for the Winter PPV. By removing it from the calendar you seem to be affecting the two items you are trying to protect, TL traffic and freedom of information for users. You mentioned in an earlier post that you allowed the thread about the winter PPV because its was informational. I dont see how a calendar listing is not informational for users looking to find out about the Winter arena. In particular; the start and end times of the stream, the intial matchups, links to the brackets, and/or links to the thread itself. If you dont have a direct link to their stream or webpage, and only have links to other sections of the TL wepage I really dont see how thats advertising and not informational.
Secondly, It seems to me that by not having the calendar listing its actually drawing viewers away from the webpage. Unless im mistaken you mentioned you wanted to keep as many viewers on the page as possible (via embedded streams). I typically watch streams through the TL embed as Im sure alot of TL'ers do, but obviously I wont be if its not listed on calendar or through and the TL site. I will be offsite to watch the event, as will many others, which will be drawing viewers away from TL rather than keeping those who paid for the PPV on TL watching the embedded stream.
Lastly, it seems like a move that realistically is only going to hurt MLG (Esports? =D) because there are alot of viewers on TL who dont keep track of events and just happen to pop in and see a stream. Many of those viewers likely wouldnt be willing to pay, but my guess would be that they earn a few last minute buys because of it.
So to me the reasoning as to why TL wont list the stream is somewhat flawed. I dont know, maybe Im way off base with the point Hot-Bid is trying to make.But it looks like more of a wedge being driven between two great companies for no real reason.
all that aside, I would like to know if TL would be calendar listing a PPV event if they agreed with the pricepoint and the quality of programming if say MLG reviewed it for a future PPV event?
edit: Grammer/spelling
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On February 23 2012 14:07 aNDRoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:02 Dodgin wrote:On February 23 2012 13:59 aNDRoM wrote:
Hmm, I just thought of something... Hot_Bid (or other TL admin), you've said you don't have a sponsored calendar section (yet), but the events that you put in the TL banner (looking at the "ASUS ROG in 1 day 6 hours" right now) kinda acts like that. I guess it's for a major event that is not immediate enough (i.e. in the next 12-24 hours) to show up on the regular calendar.
I could totally see that as functioning as a sponsored event space. In fact, I remember a few months ago noticing that a major upcoming event wasn't shown there as I expected. Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, I can't remember now what that event was. How does TL determine what goes up there? Is it limited to events for which TL has created a portal? If so, this naturally leads to asking how TL determines which events to create portals for... IIRC tournament portals and the top-right " ASUS ROG in _______ " are paid advertisements. So they are already using your suggestion. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:02 lichter wrote:On February 23 2012 13:59 aNDRoM wrote:
Hmm, I just thought of something... Hot_Bid (or other TL admin), you've said you don't have a sponsored calendar section (yet), but the events that you put in the TL banner (looking at the "ASUS ROG in 1 day 6 hours" right now) kinda acts like that. I guess it's for a major event that is not immediate enough (i.e. in the next 12-24 hours) to show up on the regular calendar.
I could totally see that as functioning as a sponsored event space. In fact, I remember a few months ago noticing that a major upcoming event wasn't shown there as I expected. Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, I can't remember now what that event was. How does TL determine what goes up there? Is it limited to events for which TL has created a portal? If so, this naturally leads to asking how TL determines which events to create portals for... It's a paid spot. I did not realize that. I didn't see any announcements about portals being paid, when they made their first one for MLG: http://www.teamliquid.net/mlg/ Does that mean MLG has paid for event advertising before? If so, I'm even more confused why they wouldn't pay for Winter Arena!
Not every Major get an event portal. http://www.teamliquid.net/gsl/ and http://www.teamliquid.net/dreamhack/ doesn't exist, for example.
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100% support for TL position and explanation.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 23 2012 14:11 aNDRoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:07 lichter wrote:On February 23 2012 14:04 Nighthawks28 wrote:On February 23 2012 13:42 Peleus wrote:
Hmm I respectfully disagree with the decision in this case.
I think a line definately needs to be drawn, and there are plenty of events that should not be listed on the calendar entries. Saying that, I think TL is great as a information resource, and for me it's a primary driver to your site. Id agree that I love having all the links able to be embedded etc, and you do have a high quality standard at the moment, but there should be exceptions for premium events. This would include people such as GOM, Dreamhack, IPL, MLG, etc.
For these events, considering their rarity I think the information given is more of a positive to your users even if it is purely advertising. I don't want big splash screen ads on TL telling me different things, but I probably would appreciate a one line link on the side of the page with all the other events so I can still use TL as my ONLY information resource. I agree. All the big major tournaments should be in the calendar. I don't care if it's free or PPV. It should be on the calendar b/c the TL calendar is a useful tool to know what streams are happening in the SC2 world. I don't understand the logic that because something is bigger or more significant, that the rules should be bent for it. I doubt you'd want this logic to apply in the real world. TL has to apply a threshold based on size/significance for the calendar, or else there would be too much noise on the calendar. I think Peleus's and Nighthawks28's point was that they (and many others I'm sure) see/use the calendar as informational, so removal of major events that would normally be listed makes TL less valuable (accurate?) as a news/information source?
I understand that, and I'm not saying that rules should be enforced in a black and white manner. However I don't agree that the reason solely be because MLG is a big event. I don't think a calendar entry provides enough information to warrant MLG getting free advertising for their PPV. There has to be some other reason that the calendar entry be allowed despite TLnet's rules.
THEREFORE
I think my idea that the calendar entry link to the live report thread is a reasonable compromise that should 1.) make a calendar entry informational and truly useful for ALL TL users, 2.) appease those that just want a calendar entry for the sake of completion and 3.) still allow TL to abide by their rules and principles.
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totally behind this TL, thank you again for being so great!
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Hong Kong9154 Posts
On February 23 2012 14:15 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:11 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 14:07 lichter wrote:On February 23 2012 14:04 Nighthawks28 wrote:On February 23 2012 13:42 Peleus wrote:
Hmm I respectfully disagree with the decision in this case.
I think a line definately needs to be drawn, and there are plenty of events that should not be listed on the calendar entries. Saying that, I think TL is great as a information resource, and for me it's a primary driver to your site. Id agree that I love having all the links able to be embedded etc, and you do have a high quality standard at the moment, but there should be exceptions for premium events. This would include people such as GOM, Dreamhack, IPL, MLG, etc.
For these events, considering their rarity I think the information given is more of a positive to your users even if it is purely advertising. I don't want big splash screen ads on TL telling me different things, but I probably would appreciate a one line link on the side of the page with all the other events so I can still use TL as my ONLY information resource. I agree. All the big major tournaments should be in the calendar. I don't care if it's free or PPV. It should be on the calendar b/c the TL calendar is a useful tool to know what streams are happening in the SC2 world. I don't understand the logic that because something is bigger or more significant, that the rules should be bent for it. I doubt you'd want this logic to apply in the real world. TL has to apply a threshold based on size/significance for the calendar, or else there would be too much noise on the calendar. I think Peleus's and Nighthawks28's point was that they (and many others I'm sure) see/use the calendar as informational, so removal of major events that would normally be listed makes TL less valuable (accurate?) as a news/information source? I understand that, and I'm not saying that rules should be enforced in a black and white manner. However I don't agree that the reason solely be because MLG is a big event. I don't think a calendar entry provides enough information to warrant MLG getting free advertising for their PPV. There has to be some other reason that the calendar entry be allowed despite TLnet's rules. THEREFORE I think my idea that the calendar entry link to the live report thread is a reasonable compromise that should 1.) make a calendar entry informational and truly useful for ALL TL users, 2.) appease those that just want a calendar entry for the sake of completion and 3.) still allow TL to abide by their rules and principles.
The LR thread will be highly bumped and readily available on the left sidebar. If not, it's only one quick search away.
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On February 23 2012 14:15 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:11 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 14:07 lichter wrote:On February 23 2012 14:04 Nighthawks28 wrote:On February 23 2012 13:42 Peleus wrote:
Hmm I respectfully disagree with the decision in this case.
I think a line definately needs to be drawn, and there are plenty of events that should not be listed on the calendar entries. Saying that, I think TL is great as a information resource, and for me it's a primary driver to your site. Id agree that I love having all the links able to be embedded etc, and you do have a high quality standard at the moment, but there should be exceptions for premium events. This would include people such as GOM, Dreamhack, IPL, MLG, etc.
For these events, considering their rarity I think the information given is more of a positive to your users even if it is purely advertising. I don't want big splash screen ads on TL telling me different things, but I probably would appreciate a one line link on the side of the page with all the other events so I can still use TL as my ONLY information resource. I agree. All the big major tournaments should be in the calendar. I don't care if it's free or PPV. It should be on the calendar b/c the TL calendar is a useful tool to know what streams are happening in the SC2 world. I don't understand the logic that because something is bigger or more significant, that the rules should be bent for it. I doubt you'd want this logic to apply in the real world. TL has to apply a threshold based on size/significance for the calendar, or else there would be too much noise on the calendar. I think Peleus's and Nighthawks28's point was that they (and many others I'm sure) see/use the calendar as informational, so removal of major events that would normally be listed makes TL less valuable (accurate?) as a news/information source? I understand that, and I'm not saying that rules should be enforced in a black and white manner. However I don't agree that the reason solely be because MLG is a big event. I don't think a calendar entry provides enough information to warrant MLG getting free advertising for their PPV. There has to be some other reason that the calendar entry be allowed despite TLnet's rules. THEREFORE I think my idea that the calendar entry link to the live report thread is a reasonable compromise that should 1.) make a calendar entry informational and truly useful for ALL TL users, 2.) appease those that just want a calendar entry for the sake of completion and 3.) still allow TL to abide by their rules and principles.
I think the objection is to have a PPV-only event be listed in the calendar sidebar. If that's the case, how's this for another serious compromise/solution: Just as there is a link for "[ Show # non-featured ]" on the bottom of the list of live streams, could PPV-only events be listed on the calendar page, but not on the calendar sidebar that's on every page. Instead, a link for "[ Show non-free events ]" takes you to the calendar page?
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hmm this really hurts mlg. and imo TL should just let winter arena be on the schedule because if MLG fails, it will hurt the whole scene. however, i do understand that rules are rules.
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On February 23 2012 14:14 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 14:07 aNDRoM wrote:On February 23 2012 14:02 Dodgin wrote:On February 23 2012 13:59 aNDRoM wrote:
Hmm, I just thought of something... Hot_Bid (or other TL admin), you've said you don't have a sponsored calendar section (yet), but the events that you put in the TL banner (looking at the "ASUS ROG in 1 day 6 hours" right now) kinda acts like that. I guess it's for a major event that is not immediate enough (i.e. in the next 12-24 hours) to show up on the regular calendar.
I could totally see that as functioning as a sponsored event space. In fact, I remember a few months ago noticing that a major upcoming event wasn't shown there as I expected. Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, I can't remember now what that event was. How does TL determine what goes up there? Is it limited to events for which TL has created a portal? If so, this naturally leads to asking how TL determines which events to create portals for... IIRC tournament portals and the top-right " ASUS ROG in _______ " are paid advertisements. So they are already using your suggestion. On February 23 2012 14:02 lichter wrote:On February 23 2012 13:59 aNDRoM wrote:
Hmm, I just thought of something... Hot_Bid (or other TL admin), you've said you don't have a sponsored calendar section (yet), but the events that you put in the TL banner (looking at the "ASUS ROG in 1 day 6 hours" right now) kinda acts like that. I guess it's for a major event that is not immediate enough (i.e. in the next 12-24 hours) to show up on the regular calendar.
I could totally see that as functioning as a sponsored event space. In fact, I remember a few months ago noticing that a major upcoming event wasn't shown there as I expected. Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, I can't remember now what that event was. How does TL determine what goes up there? Is it limited to events for which TL has created a portal? If so, this naturally leads to asking how TL determines which events to create portals for... It's a paid spot. I did not realize that. I didn't see any announcements about portals being paid, when they made their first one for MLG: http://www.teamliquid.net/mlg/ Does that mean MLG has paid for event advertising before? If so, I'm even more confused why they wouldn't pay for Winter Arena! Not every Major get an event portal. http://www.teamliquid.net/gsl/ and http://www.teamliquid.net/dreamhack/ doesn't exist, for example.
Does that fact have anything to do with sponsorship or advertising?
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On February 23 2012 13:38 ilbh wrote:
I understand that you guys have rules and are strictly following it, but I disagree that an event without a free stream can't be displayed in the calendar, since some(actually all) of the users are going to benefect from it and TL is not losing anything from it.
even people who is not paying for the event wants to know when it starts, I know I do.
yes, listing something in the calendar will always get more viewers to the event, but doesn't mean it is only advertising... I just don't see it as advertising only... it's information for everyone.
not only that, but the success of such events are in pro of the entire community, scene, etc., even TL itself. and it's not like you will have advertising all over the website because of that, its just a listing in the calendar.
unless TL needs the money or wants more revenue, I'm totally fine with that, just charge for the calendar listing, but if it's not the case, then I think it is completely unnecessary.
that's my 2 cents.
I'm gonna have to agree with this. In my eyes MLG isn't losing anything really by this not being there. People keep saying this is HUGE for them and it's just the end of the world for MLG. The thing is, this arena has been the main topic that people have been talking about since it was announced, there aren't many people who don't know about it and don't know when it is, so it really doesn't seem like a big deal at all. It not being on the calender doesn't affect those who aren't going to pay for it, it affects those who have paid for it or plan on paying for it. This is a fault that can be argued for TL or for MLG.
I respect TL for sticking to it's rules, even if it seems like such a silly thing to me. I don't happen to agree with a lot of people in this thread (who really are just praising this because they don't agree with PPV) saying this will majorly hurt MLG.
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What would be funny is if some PPV-only event ended up with a bunch of TL pros playing in it. What would TL do then? Leave it off TL.net but list it on TLPro.com? ;-)
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TL also has a duty to inform it's users. A tournament run by MLG who was so popular last year for SC2, it's hard to imagine many TL members who wouldn't be interested in knowing when it's happening. Why not follow the traditional mould when the journalistic must interface with public relations, publish what is newsworthy don't become an arbiter of business models.
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On February 23 2012 14:22 aNDRoM wrote:
What would be funny is if some PPV-only event ended up with a bunch of TL pros playing in it. What would TL do then? Leave it of TL.net but list it on TLPro.com? ;-)
At least 3 are playing in this one (Ret, Sheth, Haypro). They're not against coverage of the event, merely anything that could be seen as endorsing it with no other purpose.
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On February 23 2012 14:17 Golgotha wrote:
hmm this really hurts mlg. and imo TL should just let winter arena be on the schedule because if MLG fails, it will hurt the whole scene. however, i do understand that rules are rules.
I doubt one event being a flop (not saying it necessarily will be) would take down the entirety of MLG.
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TL got this bang on.Thanks for keeping this website the best place for sc2
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On February 23 2012 14:24 BuddhaMonk wrote:
TL also has a duty to inform it's users. A tournament run by MLG who was so popular last year for SC2, it's hard to imagine many TL members who wouldn't be interested in knowing when it's happening. Why not follow the traditional mould when the journalistic must interface with public relations, publish what is newsworthy don't become an arbiter of business models.
What would Team Liquid be without its own identity and set of values?
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I never thought of the event calendar as an endorsement of the event actually. I just thought of it as a nice service the listed everything in a organized fashion. I thought the portals were more of an endorsement.
At the end of the day, I don't think it even matters for a PPV event. Very few viewers don't know about this yet.
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Just as MLG expects to make a profit doing what they love, they should be understanding that TL also deserves to make a profit doing what they love.
If they are offerings no content or value to TL and expect free advertising, it is clearly not a mutually beneficial arrangement.
MLG is paying for advertisement on twitch, they should be plenty willing to pay for calendar promotion on TL. It is very possible that they are greatly underestimating how much this benefits a stream. Despite all the MLG commotion and discussion, I for one don't know when the stream is starting or ending. I've become accustomed to not remember or pay attention to this, due to the amazing job TL calendar does. I'm certain many others are like me and seeing MLG on the side of TL would certainly serve as a nice reminder to buy the PPV.
Even GSL, which I have a yearly subscription to, I rely on the TL calendar and the GOM Countdown Timer to remind me when to watch.
They refer a lot how they look up to UFC. From what I notice, they run the most ads for their PPV the day of and right before their PPV event. If they aren't advertising like mad on TL, it seems like a poor marketing decision.
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Great decision. But will Tyler's LR show running concurrent with the arena be featured on the calendar?
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EPT
