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On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about.
A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects..
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On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects..
I realize this, that's why I said I wouldn't support it if they changed it to force you to hit them like clockwork. But still, something like that are the kind of changes that I love to see, because they can only mean good things, and you can't really argue with them.
+ Show Spoiler +
EDIT: Sixty-Ninth Post :D
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whats the range on corruptors? since they have to kind of stop to shoot, won't phoenix be able to kite corruptors decently well too?
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On February 22 2012 04:22 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. See, this is my biggest problem with the "Terran is underpowered" crowd. Let's assume for a moment, that like many Terrans are arguing, Terran can't win in any late-game situation against P or Z. Ever. Just zero chance, might as well gg after the 12 minute mark. I don't think this is true, but we're going to work under this assumption for a moment. Well, if Terran can't win late-game at all, how are the Terran matchups still hovering around 50% W/L? The Terran players would say "well that doesn't count, those were all-ins." No, all-ins DO count, especially if you can win GSLs with them. If Terran loses every game that goes past the 12 minute mark, that means they must win every game that ends before the 12 minute mark in order for the statistics to be 50/50. This is an oversimplification of what is really happening in the game, but considering that the stats are at 50/50 (or very close) in both TvP and TvZ, any late game underpoweredness has to coincide with early game overpoweredness, or the stats would clearly show imbalance in the overall matchup. Having a race be good in the early game and awful in the late game is obviously terrible game design and I'm not happy with the situation, even as a non-Terran player. I just want Terrans to acknowledge that if Terran gets a lategame buff, it simply has to be offset with an early game nerf, or the matchups aren't going to stay at 50/50. MULEs losing their ability to oversaturate mineral lines would be a good place to start in my opinion, with some sort of late-game buff to go along with that.
Ow I agree Terran’s early game is strong. I think this is what overshadows the late game and the end result at least in GrandMasters (significantly behind the lower leagues) you see a 50/50. So logic would dictate that if you buff the late game, but do nothing to the early game, then you would swing the statistics into Terrans favor.
But I think as it stands, having a strong early game and a weak late game isn’t exactly ideal, because it forces Terran to do all-ins and focus purely on the first 15 minutes of the game, which is no good.
What really should happen is adjust the early game, which they’ve half heartedly attempted to do with the rax build time, and then adjust the late game.
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I'm not seeing the upgrade! HAAAAAAALP
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On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about.
While the MULE spamming may be a problem (and I appreciate the over 9000 meme as much as the next guy ^^), I think that some of the highest level players may actually choose to save MULE energy for various reasons and strategies. For example, when gold bases were still around, calling down mass MULEs gave such an incredibly high boost of money, it may have been worthwhile to save energy if the Terran player knew a gold base was on the verge of being secured. Similarly, if a Terran is going to ninja expand to his opponent's side of the base, he may want to spam MULEs to mine out that base rather quickly (in case the game actually goes long enough to worry about which bases have resources left). (I find it rather similar to saving up chrono boosts if the Protoss player knows he's going to start a vital upgrade very soon.)
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On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects..
for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right?
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Someone got error like this while downloading patch ? Please help me if you know how to fix it. Reinstalling c++ libraries and .net didnt worked.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On February 22 2012 04:33 skatbone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:12 Uncultured wrote:On February 22 2012 04:10 Naeroon wrote:On February 22 2012 03:45 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2012 03:41 Jouissance wrote:
Think about this guys:
Blizzard's internal balance team thought terran was fine when the game came out. 5 rax reaper? Legit. No problems. Zerg can't 15 hatch and must pool first even versus terran? Legit. No problems.
Do you really trust them to be making these changes and not putting them on a PTR?
Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but blizzard might not know what they're doing. That was kinds figured out when they had to make a decision to either buff carrier or mothership. Guess which one they chose. Not only that the buff was just to to increase acceleration speed a little... which is hardly noticiable. Because a 460% increase in speed is definitely only a little.... which is hardly noticiable. You ever use a mothership? The change WAS hardly noticeable. It's just acceleration, not max speed. I think the change to the acceleration was really key to lategame PvZ. If you've been sitting, you often have to move forward to use a vortex. After vortexing (you have to stop to vortex) you often need to back away to avoid any corruptors that didn't fly into the hole. Vortex is already a flakey spell, imo, and the acceleration buff, while slight, made using the spell and microing after the spell to keep the MS alive much easier.
With max speed of 1.4062 it doesn't matter what the acceleration it is still going to be super slow and really easy for any anti air unit to snipe down.
Hell even high templar is faster than mothership with speed of 1.875.
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GM isn't bugged; everyone in GM is legit high MMR
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Canada13408 Posts
On February 22 2012 04:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. While the MULE spamming may be a problem (and I appreciate the over 9000 meme as much as the next guy ^^), I think that some of the highest level players may actually choose to save MULE energy for various reasons and strategies. For example, when gold bases were still around, calling down mass MULEs gave such an incredibly high boost of money, it may have been worthwhile to save energy if the Terran player knew a gold base was on the verge of being secured. Similarly, if a Terran is going to ninja expand to his opponent's side of the base, he may want to spam MULEs to mine out that base rather quickly (in case the game actually goes long enough to worry about which bases have resources left). (I find it rather similar to saving up chrono boosts if the Protoss player knows he's going to start a vital upgrade very soon.)
I just realized that the solution of Blizzard to the Mules might actually be better than straight up removing gold base.
Hear me out here:
Mules return the same number of minerals now right regardless of gold or blue patches. So since gold mineral patches are fewer in number and mine out quicker, dropping mules would actually be a bad idea on gold bases so the terran would need to save mules for the blue bases and using it on a gold base is detrimental in the long run.
Unless I misunderstood the patch notes this could be a more intricate solution that requires more thought than simply having no gold bases. Right?
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EDIT: decided not to be a dick to another dick
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On February 22 2012 04:17 FeyFey wrote:
i will miss my vessel replacement. emp and radiation in a weaker form, sounded perfect for the ghost, having one spell vs each opposing race. I mean infestors counter every unit except siege tanks and ghosts. (how to beat seeker ... fungal the incoming raven, neural the raven (seeker range 6/neural range 7)). HTs conter almost every terran unit (feedback on high hp units, as their channelig abilities can be stopped with it), except tank and fight even with ghosts if you count in the archon.
So i am curious why the ghost suddenly is overpowered, doing the same as the other spellcasters but not as effective, but with some added sneaky skills.
I mean i never used the ghost to conter broodlords or ultras, used them to kill the infestors as the rest is easy to deal with for terran, especially since if the zerg lets you kill ultras with ghosts, he deserves to lose ... (didn't even lose ultras against the recent scroll sniping that became slightly more popular ..., lost some broodlords to it though, but using the energy of 10 ghosts to get 2 broodlords is not effective imo (prepatch still)). Well i will play zerg for some time and hope i will still meet some ghost players that try to snipe broodlords, will be funny to see the ranting. But i doubt blizzard would notice this, and in the gsl i guess ghosts would still work, seeing the zergs there (no offense they would still whipe the floor with me using their mouse only, but in terms of unit use ... ) , atleast on the non ultra maps.
Anyway tvz just became a mirror of tvp. Ghosts have to stop the casters or your army is doomed, but they are perfect at doing so. Lets welcome the viking marauders combination in tvz. Play zerg and protoss either way, you train 2 matchups for the price of one. (one reason why the gsl is so terran dominant, so this change will play in their favor)
There is so many things in this post that I'm saying wtf to that I don't know where to begin.
Infestors don't counter every unit. They give you the ability to deal with most units if your control in comparison to your opponents control is good enough.
Have you ever seen a late game tvz where the terran has 10+ ghosts? If prepatch you were playing late game tvz without ghosts I think you made a big mistake, ultras, broodlords, and infestors all got demolished once you had enough ghosts o the field. Broodlords have 225 health. Snipe pre-patch did 45 damage ignoring armor at a cost of 25 energy. With zergs health regeneration is would take 6 snipes to kill a broodlord. So a ghost with 150 energy can kill a broodlord pretty quickly pre-patch. Which makes perfect sense, why should Zerg's ultimate tier three siege unit be able to beat a terrans cheaper tier two unit? I don't understand how you can't see how wrong that is. It certainly didn't take ten ghost to kill two broodlords.
I don't understand how a ghost sniping an ultra makes the zerg bad and deserve to lose. What is the zerg suppose to keep the ultras out of ghost range? Not sure you know this but Ghost range>Ultra range, pretty hard to avoid snipes when you have to be in range to attack.
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On February 22 2012 04:46 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. While the MULE spamming may be a problem (and I appreciate the over 9000 meme as much as the next guy ^^), I think that some of the highest level players may actually choose to save MULE energy for various reasons and strategies. For example, when gold bases were still around, calling down mass MULEs gave such an incredibly high boost of money, it may have been worthwhile to save energy if the Terran player knew a gold base was on the verge of being secured. Similarly, if a Terran is going to ninja expand to his opponent's side of the base, he may want to spam MULEs to mine out that base rather quickly (in case the game actually goes long enough to worry about which bases have resources left). (I find it rather similar to saving up chrono boosts if the Protoss player knows he's going to start a vital upgrade very soon.) I just realized that the solution of Blizzard to the Mules might actually be better than straight up removing gold base. Hear me out here: Mules return the same number of minerals now right regardless of gold or blue patches. So since gold mineral patches are fewer in number and mine out quicker, dropping mules would actually be a bad idea on gold bases so the terran would need to save mules for the blue bases and using it on a gold base is detrimental in the long run. Unless I misunderstood the patch notes this could be a more intricate solution that requires more thought than simply having no gold bases. Right?
That's exactly right, because scvs (and probes and drones) still get the high yield benefits, whereas MULEs don't. So MULEs should be called down on blue bases, not gold ones.
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I still don't understand why they didn't run the snipe nerf through the PTR. What was their thought logic through that?
If there was PTR:
1) The change goes over well in PTR, great!
2) Change doesn't go over well in PTR (cough NP cough) and a serious issue gets fixed before it is implemented. Also great.
3) People rage but blizz impliments it anyway, not so good
No PTR:
1) Blizzard wants the patch out just in time to screw up the balance of major tournaments. Not so great.
2) There's an issue and blizzard just doesn't care at all, or they think their balance team is as stellar and awesome as their map making team...
anywhoo... gonna go and test out my ghosts now... Hopefully we can still get some use out of them.. - ___ -;;
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On February 22 2012 04:32 eNtitY~ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:21 everdrone wrote:![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/hOJ3) they just add new option for replays, EPM = all clicks, APM = only effective clicks No it should be the other way around. E stands for "Effective" and they said this on the Situation Report: "After hearing a lot of feedback from both sides, we decided to bring back classic APM, which will track all actions issued by the player. Meanwhile, EPM (effective actions per minute) will continue to track actual commands as it did prior to patch 1.4.3"
They called it CPM. Commands per minute. Clearly they did some last minute changes. Go do some testing to see which is which. The guy at the top said his EPM was higher. So it might be APM is blizzards version and EPM is the old APM
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On February 22 2012 04:46 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:42 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. While the MULE spamming may be a problem (and I appreciate the over 9000 meme as much as the next guy ^^), I think that some of the highest level players may actually choose to save MULE energy for various reasons and strategies. For example, when gold bases were still around, calling down mass MULEs gave such an incredibly high boost of money, it may have been worthwhile to save energy if the Terran player knew a gold base was on the verge of being secured. Similarly, if a Terran is going to ninja expand to his opponent's side of the base, he may want to spam MULEs to mine out that base rather quickly (in case the game actually goes long enough to worry about which bases have resources left). (I find it rather similar to saving up chrono boosts if the Protoss player knows he's going to start a vital upgrade very soon.) I just realized that the solution of Blizzard to the Mules might actually be better than straight up removing gold base. Hear me out here: Mules return the same number of minerals now right regardless of gold or blue patches. So since gold mineral patches are fewer in number and mine out quicker, dropping mules would actually be a bad idea on gold bases so the terran would need to save mules for the blue bases and using it on a gold base is detrimental in the long run. Unless I misunderstood the patch notes this could be a more intricate solution that requires more thought than simply having no gold bases. Right?
yeah terran being punished for using mules on gold is a pretty good idea... best thing that can happen is tournaments still dont use golds at all.
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On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right?
Are you suggesting that Terrans should never scan because MULEs are always a better use of 50 energy? You realize a scan is a bit more mobile than a raven right? Not to mention the fact that sometimes a Terran doesn't want to tech all the way up to starport + tech lab to have mobile detection, and against dt rushes or burrowed roaches scans are necessary. And the fact that scans are damn good to scout tech structures, whereas you generally don't want to sacrifice a raven... lol.
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On February 22 2012 04:44 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:33 skatbone wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 Uncultured wrote:On February 22 2012 04:10 Naeroon wrote:On February 22 2012 03:45 Mehukannu wrote:On February 22 2012 03:41 Jouissance wrote:
Think about this guys:
Blizzard's internal balance team thought terran was fine when the game came out. 5 rax reaper? Legit. No problems. Zerg can't 15 hatch and must pool first even versus terran? Legit. No problems.
Do you really trust them to be making these changes and not putting them on a PTR?
Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but blizzard might not know what they're doing. That was kinds figured out when they had to make a decision to either buff carrier or mothership. Guess which one they chose. Not only that the buff was just to to increase acceleration speed a little... which is hardly noticiable. Because a 460% increase in speed is definitely only a little.... which is hardly noticiable. You ever use a mothership? The change WAS hardly noticeable. It's just acceleration, not max speed. I think the change to the acceleration was really key to lategame PvZ. If you've been sitting, you often have to move forward to use a vortex. After vortexing (you have to stop to vortex) you often need to back away to avoid any corruptors that didn't fly into the hole. Vortex is already a flakey spell, imo, and the acceleration buff, while slight, made using the spell and microing after the spell to keep the MS alive much easier. With max speed of 1.4062 it doesn't matter what the acceleration it is still going to be super slow and really easy for any anti air unit to snipe down. Hell even high templar is faster than mothership with speed of 1.875.
...which is why we micro our lategame armies. You move the MS toward the middle/front of your army to vortex (because of the small range on the spell), and you stop it, then you pull it back over your stalkers/archons/templar so that they can pick off any remaining anti-air.
My point is not that the acceleration buff was hugely game-changing. But it makes more micro possible from my humble-diamond-level toss perspective. If you lose your mothership that easily, perhaps you are using your vortexes and/or your anti-air correctly. I like the unit due to its fragility. If it was faster, it wouldn't be fragile. So I prefer that they gave us an acceleration buff rather than an outright speed buff. The increased acceleration allows me to use more micro in lategame battles (or to at least TRY to successfully use more micro). If vortex could be used while the ship was moving or if vortex had a greater range, then I would agree that the acceleration buff wasn't that helpful.
Not sure how we got on MS in this thread...can't wait to try out the new phoenix, though I am comfortable going fast third/blink/storm against mutas.
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On February 22 2012 04:42 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 04:37 xOff wrote:On February 22 2012 04:36 CyDe wrote:On February 22 2012 04:25 p1cKLes wrote:On February 22 2012 04:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 22 2012 04:04 p1cKLes wrote:I’m not sure anyone is saying that Terran doesn’t have the ability to win GSL’s? But I don’t believe winning a GSL automatically equates to being OP. Terran is an extremely difficult race to master. If you look at the statistics in silver, gold, platinum and diamond they show Terran significantly behind their counter parts, but if you manage to get over the hurdle and become a code S multi-tasking god, then you too can be a GSL champion. Unfortunately, that’s the minority and we are the majority which means most of us are all stuck pulling are hair out. I’ve also been of the opinion that Terran’s metagame was developing at a much quicker rate than the other 2 races, which left both Zerg and Protoss always trying to catch up with the metagame shifts. I remember when there was a new strategy coming out on a weekly basis for Terran. Now, I think we are at a state where Terran’s metagame is slowing down. Zerg and Protoss have pretty much figured out how to properly defend most of Terrans timing attacks. I think this is where you are going to start see Protoss and Zerg shine. The other statistic I would point to is the length of each game showing that Terran obviously feels the need to end the game quickly, because their ability to win mid and late game significantly decreases as Protoss Techs up and Zerg Macro’s up. i was only responding to the post i quoted, which implied that terrans have been doing poorly in GSL. to respond to your post, Blizzard doesnt (and shouldnt) balance the game around casual players. sc2 tournaments would be a complete farce if Blizzard decides terran needs a buff because bronze-GM (non-progamers) can't play terran well. the only people it should be balanced around are people who play the game professionally. it gives everyone something to aspire to. Sorry I didn’t mean to jump into the middle of a conversation. I agree with this in part, but on some level they do have to balance it for the lower levels, because they have to appease the casual gamers in order to get gamers interested enough to watch tournaments and support the esport financially. If you have gamers that are just so utterly frustrated that they give up, then you’re losing gamers, which means you have less gamers watching tournaments and therefore less money to support the esport. Without the gamers supporting the esport you don’t have enough money in circulation to have big tournaments. So in part, I do agree that they have to focus on your top tier player to make it watchable, but at the same time if you don’t have enough people watching and taking part in the tournaments, then the esport ceases to exist. Yes, I agree with you in terms of balancing lower levels while keeping higher levels reasonable, for sure. This is why I am a big fan of raising the "skill floor"; as in, making a change that can only make people better, instead of hinder them. For instance, if Blizzard was to put a 50 second cooldown on MULEs (something I would not support, although I think a lesser cooldown would be good), the highest level of play shouldn't be affected at all, right? The highest level of play should be hitting every calldown right on the dot (of course they don't, but this would encourage them to). However, lower levels of the game who forget MULEs for three minutes then call down six MULEs to get an income of over 9000 would be nerfed. Just an idea, and something that I enjoy thinking about. A key part of playing safely is to save some scans, its not about hitting mules on the mark like injects.. for as good as an on-demand giant detection crop circle is, i think the price of forgoing some MULEs entirely to save energy is more than reasonable. my god. you do realize you have ravens right?
mules don't give you free money. they allow you to gather your minerals FASTER, but you still get the same number of minerals eventually.
i don't think you realise how difficult terran would be if you didn't have scanner sweep. it's used for scouting more than detection. it's ESSENTIAL for scouting. if you think terran shouldn't 'waste' mules to scan, then you need to give terran a marine that can run at zergling speed, flying supply depots, an observer or something in order to scout.
i mean you could build barracks and float them around.. but that costs almost as much as a scan and they can be killed so they're not exactly permenant.....
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EPT![[image loading]](http://oi42.tinypic.com/2ll0vmf.jpg)
