|
Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 14 2012 12:10 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:08 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 12:03 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event. It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports." And I am saying you have the ability to pay. The questions is: How badly do you want to support E-sports? Bad enough to earn $20 to watch MGL? My position must be blowing right over your head. You are still equating spending money with how badly somebody "loves e-sports." Anyways, you win good sir there is no point continuing to force my point through.
What will you do to support esports then? I bought steelseries headphones and emailed them when I did it, just to make sure they knew why I did it. I am equating time and/or money to how much you want to support something. Your point has not gone over my head. I just don't think it is very good.
|
Great move from MLG! Finally taking the next step for e-sports to grow as it should! I'll definitely tune in for this awesome event! :D
|
Very sad news Do not pay for SC as a policy Scratch MLG off the list of tournaments to watch.
|
On February 14 2012 12:15 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:03 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA. You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect. In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying On the BW front, it declined quickly. OGN supplemented it with Kart Rider and now LoL. You're right that it was more steady than what should be considered a bubble, but I think SC2 is going to face that territory because I think there's far less potential and profitability than people think. Show nested quote +Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it They had 241k concurrent, the bulk of which was LoL content. SC2 was far less.
I'm fairly certain MLG almost reached 200k live viewers w/o LoL being a part of it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
|
I just don't think it is very good.
Ya trying to avoid equating love and money is a terrible position.
|
On February 14 2012 12:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:07 ClysmiC wrote:
I'm sick of everyone saying "it's just 20 dollars, just pay it, it's not that much." Yes, you guys are right. 20 dollars isn't a lot. But if there are 4 arenas per year, that's 80 dollars. Plus GSL season ticket, 75 more dollars. This shit adds up, it's not a one-and-done 20 dollars. And if tournaments keep getting away with this stuff, following Starcraft could end up costing 200+ dollars a year. And that IS a significant amount. How many hours of entertainment is that? If you do the math, that is some of the most efficient money you spent all year. And, as SC2 players, we love dealing with things efficiently.
It's entertainment that I have replaced watching TV with. If it becomes expensive, I'll just go back to TV.
|
This move doesn't make a lot of sense to me. MLG and IPL were competing to be the biggest tournament in NA but now with MLG being PPV and IPL remaining free it is a no brainer who will be the biggest tournament. MLG is going to have to differentiate itself from IPL more, otherwise be content with being #2.
|
Wonder how this will go for MLG. I know I will not be paying. As for the ITS ONLY 20 DOARRAS comments. Some of us are still students and can only just afford food and rent atm.
|
On February 14 2012 12:20 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:15 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 12:03 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA. You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect. In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying On the BW front, it declined quickly. OGN supplemented it with Kart Rider and now LoL. You're right that it was more steady than what should be considered a bubble, but I think SC2 is going to face that territory because I think there's far less potential and profitability than people think. Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it They had 241k concurrent, the bulk of which was LoL content. SC2 was far less. I'm fairly certain MLG almost reached 200k live viewers w/o LoL being a part of it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Given the history of previous streams of them being seperate sc2 rarely ever comes close to the LoL numbers.
|
I'm not paying for the GSL and I am definitely not paying for this.
|
On February 14 2012 12:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:10 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 12:08 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 12:03 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event. It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports." And I am saying you have the ability to pay. The questions is: How badly do you want to support E-sports? Bad enough to earn $20 to watch MGL? My position must be blowing right over your head. You are still equating spending money with how badly somebody "loves e-sports." Anyways, you win good sir there is no point continuing to force my point through. What will you do to support esports then? I bought steelseries headphones and emailed them when I did it, just to make sure they knew why I did it. I am equating time and/or money to how much you want to support something. Your point has not gone over my head. I just don't think it is very good.
That does not mean that you are better than people that do not go to those lengths, because we don't have the time/money/ability etc. so stop acting like it. That is his point. Thank you for supporting Esports in a big way, we all appreciate that you were willing to do that, but please do not try to tell someone they are not as good of an Esports fan because they did not do that.
|
Hmmm. I'm not sure how I feel about this. Yes Esports needs some sort of income, and yes 20 dollars is kinda the price of a cinema trip, but contra that I can't actually remember the last time I saw a movie at the cinema. As long as they are okay with some (limited) account sharing so that me and my brother could drop 20 dollars and watch it at the same time in 2 different places, that would encourage me to buy.
Make no mistake though, I'm a broke arse student, I spend far too much money a week on luxuries as it is, I could maybe afford to buy PPV once a year maybe twice if I split the cost with someone else.
|
Sundance is in for a rude awakening.
I know what he's trying to accomplish with this, but it isn't going to work. Not even the GSL the BIGGEST SC2 tournament is PPV and their special tournaments that do, cost a lot less than what he's proposing.
|
MLG has proven they make a high quality product and has proven that they quickly and decisively respond to any issues that arise.
They get my money.
|
If this were $10, I'd consider it. For $20, I can buy access to GSL and see more games with players I care about more, with (probably) better commentary, and so forth. It's not MLG's fault per se, but they've priced themselves out of my E-SPORTS dollar.
|
On February 14 2012 12:13 Kettchup wrote:
I pay for tournaments that also have a free stream. That is supporting esports.
Paying for a tournament that will end up cutting off 90% of it's viewers is not supporting esports. I want more people to watch Starcraft, not less.
This this this. I will pay for next homestory for sure.
|
On February 14 2012 12:21 nvs. wrote:Ya trying to avoid equating love and money is a terrible position.
If we were talking about my relationship with my girlfriend, yes. But we are talking about supporting a business model and new entertainment market, which requires money. But its it clear the nuance is lost on you.
|
I think $20 is too steep, I payed half that amount for premium GSL vods last year which lasted a month...
|
this blows... I loved MLG because u can watch all the VODs and live events with no worries.
I understand the thought behind it. It makes the prize pool larger.
I mean I don't watch Gom because u have to pay, not MLG. cool.
|
On February 14 2012 12:13 Angel_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:11 Aldehyde wrote:
Okay, something I haven't seen an answer to yet. Will there still be ads constantly (or even at all) when/if I dish out the 20 dollars?
I'm guessing the "high quality" stream will stay the same low res and bitrate it's always been but the advertisement thing is a big deal to me. Well, MLGs own announcement was that you could feel comfortable because you "know what you're going to get" So...I would say you have your answer for that based on...just about every MLG in the past year.
But I don't know what I'll get. Advertisements is not mentioned once which, to me, is weird since it's something everyone always mentions when they talk about the paid streams ("No ads!").
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
