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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 14 2012 12:07 ClysmiC wrote:
I'm sick of everyone saying "it's just 20 dollars, just pay it, it's not that much." Yes, you guys are right. 20 dollars isn't a lot. But if there are 4 arenas per year, that's 80 dollars. Plus GSL season ticket, 75 more dollars. This shit adds up, it's not a one-and-done 20 dollars. And if tournaments keep getting away with this stuff, following Starcraft could end up costing 200+ dollars a year. And that IS a significant amount.
How many hours of entertainment is that? If you do the math, that is some of the most efficient money you spent all year. And, as SC2 players, we love dealing with things efficiently.
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I think charging money for the stream was something that would come as a result of eSports, being a college student without a job idk if I can afford spending $20 on a regular basis without any real income. However if I currently did have a job I would easily set aside $20 for MLG probably one of the easiest decisions of my life. I was able to go to MLG Orlando last year and it was amazing, and I would love to support MLG if I only had an income XD. Hopefully this summer I get a paid internship, and I'll be able to purchase content. All-in-all if you guys really want to see eSports grow and get bigger you will have to pay for it. Nothing in this world worth getting is easy..
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On February 14 2012 12:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:03 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event. It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports." And I am saying you have the ability to pay. The questions is: How badly do you want to support E-sports? Bad enough to earn $20 to watch MGL?
My position must be blowing right over your head. You are still equating spending money with how badly somebody "loves e-sports."
Anyways, you win good sir there is no point continuing to force my point through.
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On February 14 2012 11:51 KevinBacon wrote:
This big tournaments like mlg, ipl, nasl etc are just trying to outgrow eachother and by that they are actually outgrowing e-sports itself resulting in not so much profitable events. The sad part is that what mlg is doing is making people believe or pretending that this is what we want and asked for and the right way to grow e-sports which i think is just bullshit.
Some examples would be:
- Big venues in casinos, hotels or whatever? Why we want or need this? Homestory cup was one of the most enjoyable tournaments ever because all ppl want is to see player's emotions and personalities, an audiance as big as a bar full of people is enough to achieve this. Anyone remember last nasl? the venue was empty but this big e-sport events are just competing with each other and they just can't have a smaller venue than their competition.
-5 hd streams ? Why? I bet all most ppl ever wanted was 2 streams complementing each other down times and a decent schedule.
How the hell is having ppv only tournaments going to help e-sports grow? Shouldn't we be focusing in actually raising the number of viewers and the overall interest and awareness of people that still don't know what starcraft or e-sports is? I actually started following starcraft after watching one of the first MLGs which would have never happened if it wasn't free. MLG is no different than any other corporation it's not mainly about you or what will be better for e-sports it's about profits and defeating competition
Kudos, sir. I think you hit the nail on the head with your post.
I think the events should go back to the roots. The way tournaments are organized nowadays is always from top to bottom. They feed us content they set up how they want to for a sum or for free, whatever they deem necessary or profitable.
We should remember what e-sports is really based on: The people who play, the people who watch. This is why e-Sports cannot die. There will always be people playing the game and there will always be people who want to watch good players compete. In the event the current "bubble" bursts, e-Sports will arise from the ashes, simply because the demand is there, even if that means that we begin streaming LANs from our mom's basement again.
I don't think that is really the best way though. Right now we have good tournaments with players from all around the world. This is awesome and a gift for everyone who wants to see fierce competition and good gameplay. Let us just take things slowly. I think we are skipping too many steps at once. Let tournaments shrink, if that is necessary, until they gain a profit or at least break even.
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Okay, something I haven't seen an answer to yet. Will there still be ads constantly (or even at all) when/if I dish out the 20 dollars?
I'm guessing the "high quality" stream will stay the same low res and bitrate it's always been but the advertisement thing is a big deal to me.
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Well,the wife and I have just had a baby.There is no way she will agree to this.
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A couple of people have mentioned how the advertising model does not work and that the tournaments are losing money, can anybody link to any information which backs this up? I am not saying it is incorrect, I just want to read some more into the topic if possible.
Cheers.
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On February 14 2012 11:57 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:51 KevinBacon wrote:
This big tournaments like mlg, ipl, nasl etc are just trying to outgrow eachother and by that they are actually outgrowing e-sports itself resulting in not so much profitable events. The sad part is that what mlg is doing is making people believe or pretending that this is what we want and asked for and the right way to grow e-sports which i think is just bullshit.
Some examples would be:
- Big venues in casinos, hotels or whatever? Why we want or need this? Homestory cup was one of the most enjoyable tournaments ever because all ppl want is to see player's emotions and personalities, an audiance as big as a bar full of people is enough to achieve this. Anyone remember last nasl? the venue was empty but this big e-sport events are just competing with each other and they just can't have a smaller venue than their competition.
-5 hd streams ? Why? I bet all most ppl ever wanted was 2 streams complementing each other down times and a decent schedule.
How the hell is having ppv only tournaments going to help e-sports grow? Shouldn't we be focusing in actually raising the number of viewers and the overall interest and awareness of people that still don't know what starcraft or e-sports is? I actually started following starcraft after watching one of the first MLGs which would have never happened if it wasn't free. MLG is no different than any other corporation it's not mainly about you or what will be better for e-sports it's about profits and defeating competition MLG is going for the niche approach here: If 10k, a mere fraction of their typical MLG viewership purchase the $20 viewing pass, they could cover a lot of their costs. MLG is becomes more financially stable, and viewers who did not purchase PPV go and watch other tournaments and increase their viewership.
Come on you actually think MLG gives a shit about improving other tournaments viewership?
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On February 14 2012 12:00 Jojo131 wrote:
I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often do MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though.
The point isn't that 20 bucks is going to break the bank, it is that for 20 bucks I can get a lot more value for my entertainment dollar. Yes, you can point out things like movies that are EVEN WORSE a deal, but I don't spend money on those either.
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Well looks like I'll be going to barcrafts... and spending my $20 there! Mwaha
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On February 14 2012 12:11 Aldehyde wrote:
Okay, something I haven't seen an answer to yet. Will there still be ads constantly (or even at all) when/if I dish out the 20 dollars?
I'm guessing the "high quality" stream will stay the same low res and bitrate it's always been but the advertisement thing is a big deal to me.
Well, MLGs own announcement was that you could feel comfortable because you "know what you're going to get"
So...I would say you have your answer for that based on...just about every MLG in the past year.
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On February 14 2012 12:09 Proxee wrote:
It seems like all you people want esports to grow, but you don't want to help it? I have been following MLG since halo 2 and i will continue to support not just MLG and esports, But Sundance Digiovanni for everything he has done for esports. By not paying you are saying that esports shouldn't be taken seriously, and i understand that some people can't pay $20 for it, but you shouldn't take bad about MLG, they are trying to further esports and they need our help. Keep and open mind, and maybe one day esports can be as big as UFC.
I pay for tournaments that also have a free stream. That is supporting esports.
Paying for a tournament that will end up cutting off 90% of it's viewers is not supporting esports. I want more people to watch Starcraft, not less.
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First question is, do we know everyone who is competing in it?
Assuming the list of players is as awesome as I could hope for, I'll definitely pay for it (also assuming I'm around to watch that weekend).
As a community we've been pretty spoiled up to this point. Nearly all of the best content [MLG, GSL (live), IPL, Day9 Daily, Husky's Youtube, and NASL (SD)] is all free. The content MLG is offering is ABSOLUTELY worth $20. Yet it is still $20 more than a large majority of people want to pay. The growth of eSports is now at a point where the top tier content producers are forced to charge the viewers to financially justify the production they give us. It is our duty as the viewers to pay to gain access to this top tier content. I would happily pay to watch IPL4, but I would be much less likely to pay to see the IPL fight club series, for example.
If you want to watch MLG Winter Arena, pay the damn fee. It's going to be worth it. If you would rather be a whiny bitch about the fee, then don't pay. There is plenty of free content out there for you to see.
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I personally don't have any problems with paying 20 bucks and I will probably end up doing so as I can afford it comfortably but I can see it hurting the pocket for a lot of people. That said, I see no clear rationalization of having a live event in NYC (without a live audience) and then going for a PPV model to recoup the costs. Instead, an event in a relatively cheaper city (say Columbus) with a live audience might have been a better idea as you pay much less on everything from arena rental to hotel, etc. In addition, a large stream of audience paying for their live passes would have offset the costs even more.
The only way I can rationalize their thinking is that the NYC event ended up being way more over-budget than they had planned for and they resorted to the PPV model in order to see if they can minimize their losses (esp considering the rather late announcement of the same).
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On February 14 2012 12:09 Proxee wrote:
It seems like all you people want esports to grow, but you don't want to help it? I have been following MLG since halo 2 and i will continue to support not just MLG and esports, But Sundance Digiovanni for everything he has done for esports. By not paying you are saying that esports shouldn't be taken seriously, and i understand that some people can't pay $20 for it, but you shouldn't take bad about MLG, they are trying to further esports and they need our help. Keep and open mind, and maybe one day esports can be as big as UFC.
You are better off helping esports if you invest the 20$ in other tournies.
MLG apparently wants to make serious profit, they have a large base of viewers, a lot of sponsors, but they charge the viewers a lot while still not having one of the biggest pricepools in the scene.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:03 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA. You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect. In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying On the BW front, it declined quickly. OGN supplemented it with Kart Rider and now LoL. You're right that it was more steady than what should be considered a bubble, but I think SC2 is going to face that territory because I think there's far less potential and profitability than people think.
Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it
They had 241k concurrent, the bulk of which was LoL content. SC2 was far less. I know LoL has broken 200k on its own in other events.
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On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent.
So I guess I should have provided context here. I'm not paying because I'm a millionaire's son or a grown adult with a 40hr/week job. I'm a graduate student in college, aka "poor college student" that got married this year. I now have to budget not only for myself, but for my wife. That said, Starcraft 2 is a priority. I adore Grubby. I love Nestea. I pay gladly because it is a priority to support those who entertain me. I wouldn't think twice about paying $16 for us to see a good movie and I won't think twice to pay $20 for a weekend of ESPORTS!
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Will be interested to see how many watch. I am not hateful by any means when I say it but I don't plan on paying to view, I can watch something that is on for free I guess
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Whats the deal with the referral thingy? Minimizing bad press and a free hypemachine by giving all of the public esports personas the ability to earn some money?
Regarding the 20$ worth or not discussion:
All the content may be worth 20$. Or it may be not. The thing is I don't want all the content. I want to tune in if I have the time, and I want to see the games. I do not want to listen to media people 'creating storylines' on five channels, citing useless statistics or doing the same boring interview again and again with different players. So I will probably not ever support this kind of business model.
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EPT
