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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
I don't understand the issue. The standard stream is still free. Same format ast GSL, NASL, etc. Really, I don't see the issue here other than a bigger package available, much like the GSL did for the 2012 tickets.
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On February 14 2012 12:20 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:15 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 12:03 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA. You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect. In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying On the BW front, it declined quickly. OGN supplemented it with Kart Rider and now LoL. You're right that it was more steady than what should be considered a bubble, but I think SC2 is going to face that territory because I think there's far less potential and profitability than people think. Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it They had 241k concurrent, the bulk of which was LoL content. SC2 was far less. I'm fairly certain MLG almost reached 200k live viewers w/o LoL being a part of it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong, The 2 events that MLG had lol they surpassed 200k, without it around 140k
I think it was Providence and Raleigh, or was it Orlando?
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On February 14 2012 12:24 slytown wrote:
I don't understand the issue. The standard stream is still free. Same format ast GSL, NASL, etc. Really, I don't see the issue here other than a bigger package available, much like the GSL did for the 2012 tickets.
Read the OP again.
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On February 14 2012 12:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:03 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event. It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports." And I am saying you have the ability to pay. The questions is: How badly do you want to support E-sports? Bad enough to earn $20 to watch MGL?
I guess I'm not very into E-sports then lol
I have other FAR more important priorities in life besides SC2.
At the end of the day, as Kennigit once told me, it is still a video game.
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On February 14 2012 12:18 Plansix wrote:
What will you do to support esports then? I bought steelseries headphones and emailed them when I did it, just to make sure they knew why I did it. I am equating time and/or money to how much you want to support something. Your point has not gone over my head. I just don't think it is very good.
You don't simply support something because it is attached to eSports; that accomplishes nothing.
You're speaking with your money and time when you support something with it, and giving your money to companies that may deliver bad products, or utilize bad models doesn't help them improve. It gives them the false sense that they're doing something right when they might not be; or worse, they know they're greedy or that they're doing a mediocre or poor job and they enjoy calling something related to eSports because it makes money from people like you. You end up reinforcing poor products, behaviour, etc...
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United States22883 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:20 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:15 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 12:03 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA. You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect. In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying On the BW front, it declined quickly. OGN supplemented it with Kart Rider and now LoL. You're right that it was more steady than what should be considered a bubble, but I think SC2 is going to face that territory because I think there's far less potential and profitability than people think. Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it They had 241k concurrent, the bulk of which was LoL content. SC2 was far less. I'm fairly certain MLG almost reached 200k live viewers w/o LoL being a part of it. Correct me if I'm wrong.
To be honest, the numbers aren't detailed enough. The phrasing says viewer but it could simply be the total unique viewer count on every stream combined, so a single person running quad-view is 4 viewers.
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They should have just made the whole tournament including qualifiers PPV if they need the money.
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On February 14 2012 12:00 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often do MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though.
$20 dollars adds up and if you make 20 grand a year or so, like me at the moment, you have to make tough decisions everyday. I need to save money for future, I have to pay for the necessities and I have other things I like to do. Every month I must decide what I can and can't do. I can't watch MLG for the entire weekend (and personally don't want to) so paying 20 dollars for parts I would want to watch probably isn't going to be worth it. I would do it for 10 dollars, but 20 dollars right now is a little steep. I can imagine a lot of people in my situation who make between 15 to 40 grand a year and depending on bills (I keep mine as low as possible) 20 dollars is a lot for them. It's not monumental, but you have to prioritize or you end up literally broke.
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On February 14 2012 12:24 slytown wrote:
I don't understand the issue. The standard stream is still free. Same format ast GSL, NASL, etc. Really, I don't see the issue here other than a bigger package available, much like the GSL did for the 2012 tickets.
It's buy the ticket or don't watch.
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On February 14 2012 12:26 Chytilova wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:00 Jojo131 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often do MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though. $20 dollars adds up and if you make 20 grand a year or so, like me at the moment, you have to make tough decisions everyday. I need to save money for future, I have to pay for the necessities and I have other things I like to do. Every month I must decide what I can and can't do. I can't watch MLG for the entire weekend (and personally don't want to) so paying 20 dollars for parts I would want to watch probably isn't going to be worth it. I would do it for 10 dollars, but 20 dollars right now is a little steep. I can imagine a lot of people in my situation who make between 15 to 40 grand a year and depending on bills (I keep mine as low as possible) 20 dollars is a lot for them. It's not monumental, but you have to prioritize or you end up literally broke.
20k is a lot, I live on about 10k
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Is there a low quality free stream aswell?
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On February 14 2012 12:27 Silentenigma wrote:
Is there a low quality free stream aswell?
no
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On February 14 2012 12:09 Proxee wrote:
It seems like all you people want esports to grow, but you don't want to help it? I have been following MLG since halo 2 and i will continue to support not just MLG and esports, But Sundance Digiovanni for everything he has done for esports. By not paying you are saying that esports shouldn't be taken seriously, and i understand that some people can't pay $20 for it, but you shouldn't take bad about MLG, they are trying to further esports and they need our help. Keep and open mind, and maybe one day esports can be as big as UFC.
You do realize that I wouldn't even pay $2 for UFC not only because I don't give a poop, but also because I live inside a trailer sitting 10 minutes away from my university, right? I eat discount bacon, generic brand cereal, and pancake mix from Winco every day of my life and I quite frankly think I need the nourishment because my bones are starting to hurt lately.
I would pay $5 maybe I can starve for a day but $20 is going to kill me.
Different demographics, buddy.
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I think that MLG is overestimating their brand at the end of the day
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I expected this to happen eventually, it's all about the almighty dollar. They will never stop wanting more, just like any other business. I'll definitely still be checking out the free stream, but somehow I feel like they are going to be airing fewer games on the free stream to encourage people to buy the membership.
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This following is intended as constructive criticism, please take it that way, as I have ZERO problems with PPV.
I have no problem with a PPV system - but $20 is TOO MUCH MONEY. If there was a standard def option for $4.99, HD & VODs were $9.99 then I think that would be reasonable for just about anybody (excepting freeloaders, but screw those guys).
I think GSL is a good example. Their lowest-priced option is $69 for the whole year (which, btw is 194 better-quality games per season).
$20 for a weekend or $69 for a year and the GSL option has better games, WAY more games per dollar and nothing major is going to clash with it because it's on at a weird Korean time (which suits me, because I live in Australia and it's on when I get home from work, mostly  ) and it's the most important tournament on the scene.
If MLG ran a longer-form tournament, then I'd be more willing to part with my cash, but mostly I think it's just too much money for a secondary tournament (2nd or 3rd best foreign tournament, IMO, Dreamhack and maybe HSC better). I'd pay $4.99 for an SD stream or VODs only and I think $9.99 for HD + VODs is ok too (but still probably overpriced unless this tournament is AMAZING and huk wins).
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am i gettin this right? There will be 4 streams covering all the games? So maybe i have to decide between 4 matches played at the same time with (sry beta casters but i dont like watching u guys) beta casters? I dont like that. If i pay 20$ then give me one game after another with premium casters.
Anyways even if im wrong $20 is just too much. Shouldve started with 5-10$. Wouldve payed for this easily.
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For 20$ this better be flawlessly executed production. Considering there competition for that price range, aka GSL, which provides so much more content and arguably better content, if they have stream issues or lag problems or a random hurricane, they might as well give themselves the kiss of death and kiss a huge chunk of their viewers goodbye as well as any future hope of trying to charge their viewers. I can see this backfiring now and every future organization going bankrupt rather than trying to charge viewers because of the fear of community backlash.
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On February 14 2012 12:30 Lupita wrote:
I expected this to happen eventually, it's all about the almighty dollar. They will never stop wanting more, just like any other business. I'll definitely still be checking out the free stream, but somehow I feel like they are going to be airing fewer games on the free stream to encourage people to buy the membership.
There won't be a free stream for the arena events.
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Not sure if people are cheap or are just poor, but spending $20 for a whole weekends worth of non-stop entertainment is pretty much a bargin. So i personally don't see what the problem here is. Do you want e-sports to grow at all? Sports don't grow unless viewers pay, whether it be attending or watching it from home on your tv with foxtel (or whatever American/European pay-tv is called).
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EPT
