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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
Just when I thought MLG was turning itself around, they go and do something like this. Very CPL/WSVG-esque going against your core audience. And their fates are pretty well known.
And the conversation that Youtube lost money, and TV is losing money isn't because the model is bad. The model isn't working now because that medium is no longer the sole option. Youtube lost money in the beginning because they didn't monetize quickly; they left a service that was gaining immense popularity on its own before they could figure out where it would go. Once they had their snapshot, they started to introduce ads, etc... Will the margins ever be incredible? Probably not, but as long as they can break even or gain some profit, it shows the model is valid to an extent.
As for television, the advent of the internet, downloading, torrents and the like have taken away what you could only get on television. Because there are other options in being able to see what you want, not everyone is limited to consuming it through their television. Television productions and channels were slow to adapt and as such, lost those tangible viewers in their ratings and their advertising dollars. The same amount of people are still viewing the content (based on what research there has been), but they are using different means and methods to acquire it.
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On February 14 2012 11:50 Rasun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Wowowowow, didn't you see the post of the guy below him, "its 20 dollars some of us don't have." I'm in college, I don't have the $20 to spend like that, please don't judge me, and say your in some special club that loves Esports more than the rest of us, just because you have the extra cash laying around to pay for this. I wish I could pay for quality content, but I can't. Does not mean you are separated into a higher class of Starcraft fans.
I was in college once. I always found $20 for beer. I don't love beer, but I always found money for it. The poor college kid argument is rough, but $20 is a reasonable price.
Also, if you have friends, pool your funds and watch it for the weekend. I would love to be in college watching SC2.
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Easy choice. As a student who lives our of chinese noodles and crackers, Assembly it is for me.
I don't know about you guys.
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On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok.
I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often do MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though.
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On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance.
Yeah i can understand if you don't have the money frowney face for you but if you are gonna watch assembly instead cuz you dont want to pay...have fun with worse players and competition and casters:D. I mean people that don't want to pay for sc2 are actually hurting esports. I believe the best competition is worth about 20$. So basically, GSL and MLG
I'm gonna go to the actual event.
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I found this disturbing yet slightly funny. Not sure if it was posted before Lol.
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On February 14 2012 12:00 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often to MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though.
It's not about the monetary value of 20.00, it's his statement that the people who can pay that amount for 3 days of games is what "seperates the people who love e-sports from the others" which just doesn't make any sense at all. Too many people have this "look how much money I spend on e-sports I love it more than you!" attitude.
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20 dollars is just too much. I'd rather put that money into GSL if i had to.
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On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok.
I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event.
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On February 14 2012 11:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:50 Rasun wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Wowowowow, didn't you see the post of the guy below him, "its 20 dollars some of us don't have." I'm in college, I don't have the $20 to spend like that, please don't judge me, and say your in some special club that loves Esports more than the rest of us, just because you have the extra cash laying around to pay for this. I wish I could pay for quality content, but I can't. Does not mean you are separated into a higher class of Starcraft fans. I was in college once. I always found $20 for beer. I don't love beer, but I always found money for it. The poor college kid argument is rough, but $20 is a reasonable price. Also, if you have friends, pool your funds and watch it for the weekend. I would love to be in college watching SC2.
Look, the point of my post is that being able to pay for this without giving it a second thought is not what makes someone a "true fan". Also I don't drink and am the only person I even know IRL that plays SC2, just for your information.
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On February 14 2012 11:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:38 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now. You can't have 10 years of bubble, that is just a plain silly claim. This is simply not true. 5-10 years is a short term outlook. All of the recent housing bubbles happened within that timeframe. Show nested quote +Secondly, sc2 have broken 100k unique viewers multiple times already, I'm surprised you don't know about it. Particularly MLG and GSL, and perhaps there are some more that I have missed. No, they massaged bad statistics about how many streams were opened (usually because the stream crashed), that never featured unique viewers. GSL may have broken that many, though. Show nested quote +Lastly youtube losing money IS because of poor business management. If viewership model is not sustainable, would you like to clarify WHY youtube is profitting now? Because they have finally capitalize and changed their ad model, starts to show preload ads and banner instead of nothing We don't know what Youtube did in 2011. They didn't run a profit in 2010. They did begin running a lot more live events and partnerships last year so we'll see but even without a profit, it ties into Google's overall system. And that's with economies of scale to its advantage. I agree with everyone who says MLG should curve costs by not having more audience-less NYC live events, but I don't agree that the current system is working for everyone else, or anyone at all. Maybe MLG could incorporate a much larger, open LAN system like Dreamhack, but it probably won't work so well in NA.
You don't understand what bubble means, I suggest you stop using it. A bubble would imply a sudden crash such as in prices. Nobody knows whether something is in bubble or not until after retrospect.
In BW case, the viewership, gamer salaries and competitive gaming tournament, sponsorship and nearly everything with it in general has been in a steady rise, stabilized, and decline throughout its 10 year period. Its just a simple supply and demand case, not a bubble pop as you're implying
Also MLG has clarify that their numbers are for unique viewers. I hate to dig it up for you, but if you must need it I will find it. They already had established the numbers for unique viewers, and it was much, much greater than 100k. I would dig it up for you if you must need it
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On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event.
It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports."
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On February 14 2012 11:35 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 11:31 iky43210 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:23 Jibba wrote:On February 14 2012 11:12 dsousa wrote:
You know who survives on ads.... Google, Facebook, Zynga, Yahoo, 500 television channels, Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, and every other SC2 tournament out there.
So don't cry that the ad model is broken.... maybe your cost structure is broken! Youtube lost billions of dollars for years and has only relatively recently begun to make money for Google. Most football, basketball and baseball teams are losing money, which is why they have revenue sharing from the giants. Television is dying with advertising, media is dying with advertising. And the actual truth is that SC2 is dying with advertising. People have been fed a vision of mainstream ESPORTS for too long, and they don't realize people are just taking loss leaders on a hope that's never going to happen. Even the giants in BW have been falling for years. It's a bubble and a niche, and there will never be a viewership that can sustain an advertising based/free system. Never. Alot of what you said isn't true. Youtube isn't losing money because of its ad based model, but rather its poor business management and plan. TV and Media isn't dying because of advertisement. Its the decline of viewership that is killing them, ever heard of internet? Also I don't think you understand what "bubble" means. Are you trying to claim that 10+ years of BW competitive gaming is just a "bubble"? I guess google must just be a bubble too then Youtube lost money because streaming videos is extremely expensive. Even after they began running ads, they were losing money. It's incomparable to Facebook and Google because they don't do that. The streaming services are reliant on their investors right now. The viewership model IS the advertising model. SC2 has yet to break 100,000 unique viewers, and somehow an advertising/viewership model is sustainable here? Yes, it is a bubble. MBC is dead and the OSL/PL have been losing viewership for 5 years now.
Clearly some tournaments can survive without charging viewers (unless you're arguing that dreamhack and assembly are failing), while others need their customers to pay. It has been this way since the beginning of SC2. But MLG is arguing that their new content is worth much more than their competitors product and much more than what we're accustomed to be paying for HQ streaming.
I think it's a big mistake. The lesson from the recent success of app-markets and indie-game sales seem to indicate that a reduction in prize towards the 1-5 (perhaps 10) dollars range will most often make up for lost revenue in increased sales (and very possibly expand it). Make it easy to pay and use, and people are very willing to hand over 5 dollars. 20 dollars is something that has to be thought over. What else could I be getting for 20 dollars?
It's hard to know how MLG is rationalizing this. Perhaps they think that they've identified a core group of viewers to whom watching the tournament is worth 20 dollars. That the people who currently pay for gold and silver memberships for the better quality are willing to pay more. Or perhaps they think that, just as people are happy to contribute to a tip-jar when TB has a tournament, so SC2-viewers are willing to contribute more to MLG in order for them to hold more events.
In any case, I think they risk marginalizing the tournament and create resentment among the viewers who already have a subscription to MLG. Go PPV if you must, but take a lesson from what has been learned in the app-market: Make it easy to pay and easy to use. And make it 4,99$
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On February 14 2012 12:01 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:00 Jojo131 wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often to MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though. It's not about the monetary value of 20.00, it's his statement that the people who can pay that amount for 3 days of games is what "seperates the people who love e-sports from the others" which just doesn't make any sense at all. Too many people have this "look how much money I spend on e-sports I love it more than you!" attitude.
Pretty sure he was referring to the stuck up people who talked about how thy only watch free streams. Everyone knows that poor people aren't worse sc2 fans. Everyone smart and worth responding to anyways.
Also seriously just watch restream if your poor no remorse :D
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Go on, keep making GSL look like a great deal.
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Well it says vods are free after 1 week of the tourney... so watch ROG that weekend, then MLG the next without paying? pretty easy decision IMO... Plus ROG has MOON! and POLT MOTHER FUCKERS!!!
EDIT:
I can't imagine that 20$ is a monumental sum of money for people playing a 60$ game that requires an internet service on a PC that can run it. It's not like they're taking your money every weekend, how often to MLGs come around? I totally get it that there are people struggling financially wherever they are around the world, but my gut is telling me that a lot of the people complaining are probably not these people... could be just me though.
Well actually $20 is a lot for a good number of people. I for one am still in high school and live with my parents who pay for internet. However i have to buy my own games, and I had to wait about 4 months to buy SC2 because i did not have any money saved up. So 20$ for a 3 day event of SC2 is not worth it for me- i paid 70$ for a WHOLE YEAR of GSL. wayyy more content with better players and not like smashing 200+ hours of content in 3 days. I mean if you have the money- then by all means MLG is a great tourney- just not worth the money for me- much rather save up for a concert or something and go there with my friends rather than watch sc2 for three days straight alone while getting fat..
again- just my personal situation..no hate on MLG or anything.
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i rather spend the 20 bucks on some herb, watching assembly
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I'm sick of everyone saying "it's just 20 dollars, just pay it, it's not that much." Yes, you guys are right. 20 dollars isn't a lot. But if there are 4 arenas per year, that's 80 dollars. Plus GSL season ticket, 75 more dollars. This shit adds up, it's not a one-and-done 20 dollars. And if tournaments keep getting away with this stuff, following Starcraft could end up costing 200+ dollars a year. And that IS a significant amount.
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On February 14 2012 12:03 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:02 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:56 nvs. wrote:On February 14 2012 11:46 Plansix wrote:On February 14 2012 11:42 jarf1337 wrote:
It's $20 to support the best tournament in NA.
It's $20 to pay for the flights and accomodations of 32 progamers.
It's $20 for a weekend of fun in my own home.
It's $20 to prove Esports is not a joke!
It's $20 well spent. Exactly. This is when we separate the people who love E-sports from the others. Sundance has provided a preview of the service and I bet we will see more in the weeks coming. If anyone can sell a $20 tournament, it is Sundance. Having $20.00 of disposable income is what separates people who love e-sports from others? ok. I could always find $20 anything I really wanted at any point in my life. And I love supporting things I enjoy directly. $20 on MGL is money well spent. I have always enjoyed everything they do and want to see what they can provide without the chaos of the live event. It's not about getting the money.... it's about equating having the ability to pay that amount of money with being a "true lover of e-sports."
And I am saying you have the ability to pay. The questions is: How badly do you want to support E-sports? Bad enough to earn $20 to watch MGL?
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It seems like all you people want esports to grow, but you don't want to help it? I have been following MLG since halo 2 and i will continue to support not just MLG and esports, But Sundance Digiovanni for everything he has done for esports. By not paying you are saying that esports shouldn't be taken seriously, and i understand that some people can't pay $20 for it, but you shouldn't take bad about MLG, they are trying to further esports and they need our help. Keep and open mind, and maybe one day esports can be as big as UFC.
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EPT
