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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
The snipe nerf addresses one big issue but creates a bunch of smaller ones that make it a less viable skill in general:
- Plenty of units you can't 1-shot anymore with snipe, including lings, workers, and shield-less marines
- dramatically less useful against terran infantry (not that they were cost effective to begin with, but they can kill a marauder with 3 snipes instead of 5)
- 4(!) snipes to kill an emp'd zealot instead of 2
I don't think this is the right approach to fixing snipe. a 50-energy snipe that did the same damage as before is arguably better since you can get away w/ less micro but retain the spirit of energy management.
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On February 11 2012 07:01 Applesqt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:50 ToInfinity wrote:On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.
"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."
So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.
Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml
btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.
Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.
Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.
JOY. 3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine? its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable Instead 50% of the people in the tournament are protoss. Seems fine, right? Such a flawed reasoning
Which is only 1 more player than terrans. In such low numbers, statistics aren't great arguments 
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Oh my god, phoenix love and an incentive to build Fleet Beacons. I'm liking this.
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On February 11 2012 07:05 Reason.SC2 wrote:
This "discussion" is making my brain hurt.
Blizz announces quite possibly their most reasonable patch, which pros will most certainly support and agree with, and captain bronzeterran furiously types away that he should be able to one-shot whatever unit he wants with snipe, while captain bronzezerg is pissed cause terrans are floating 4k against him, so what difference will the MULE nerf make.... sigh.
I'm just going to stop reading now.... brain... melting..... oww...
Several pros have already expressed that the snipe nerf might be too drastic. I don't understand why you would assume most pros will be OK with that nerf, because it's simply not true. It is a huge blow to TvZ late-game, which is already heavily favored for Zerg.
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Terran lategame is slowly getting complete thrash... Thors/Battlecruisers are pretty much only viable if you go for a Mech all-in or in a TvT Stalemate. Ghost were a very nice supplement for any army, now they're pathetic with their main damage ability nerfed into oblivion and beyond.
Looks like Blizzard wants the Terrans to go back to 12 minute All- in plays.
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On February 11 2012 07:00 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:55 Vehemus wrote:On February 11 2012 06:50 ToInfinity wrote:On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.
"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."
So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.
Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml
btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.
Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.
Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.
JOY. 3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine? its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable It seems fine, but they started with 15 Terrans in Code S and 3 are left. They started with 8 Protoss in Code S and 4 are left. And maybe all of those terrans shouldn't have been there in the first place? Plus mirror matchups knocking each other out.
Do you watch the GSL? There are no mirror matchups. It's group play all the way up to round of 8.
Only one group in the round of 32 and one in the round of 16 had guaranteed Terran eliminations.
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EMP = Nerfed
Snipe = Nerfed
what will be next ? Cloak cost doubled ?
but srsly, snipe is very very strong against BL and very strong against Ultras but minus 20 dmg ? 35+ 10 to Psionic would be a good number minus 10 instead of 20 . Ghosts are expenisve and the need to build up energie too and youll also need energie for cloak in some situations.
sad storie but i see gsl code S with like 4 - 6terrans left next season.
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On February 11 2012 06:35 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:28 Crow! wrote:
I like the practical results of how the snipe change works, but it doesn't really make sense. Why would someone who's skilled in psionics take more damage from the same shell? Is it some special psionic feedback round or something?
I'm looking forward to the Phoenix upgrade, though the prerequisite of Fleet Beacon is concerning - if Phoneixes are the only thing you're using the Fleet Becon for, it's going to be one awfully expensive upgrade. (Why does a Fleet Beacon cost as much as a Colossus, anyway?)
I like the MULE change - it's not really a nerf to Terrans, at least not in tournaments, seeing how with the current gold mineral mechanic in place tournament map makers were just removing gold minerals altogether. Without a fundamental racial bonus for having gold minerals, maybe we can start seeing a resurgence of gold bases and their associated interesting strategic choices for all the races. Lore can always be whacked a little until it settles into place. Feedback round is one way, explaining that psionic organisms have larger brains and are thus easier to headshot is another. As for the Fleet Beacon: it's more of a down payment than anything. It means that the transition into Broodlord tech will be easier than ever before to counter. I think that if the upgrade is 100/100 and not too long in production, it ought to be a beautiful check against Mutalisks. EDIT: To all the complainers: Nerf to Snipe was completely necessary. It was possible to produce a lategame Terran army consisting only of Ghosts that could snipe absolutely anything the Zerg threw at them at a rate the Zerg simply could not compete with. There was a point of no return with Ghosts, where afterwards the Terran army literally could not be destroyed. Not just "couldn't be destroyed cost-effectively", but actually indestructible. That same point of no return probably still exists, but now it's about twice as far out. Untouchable deathballs are a really bad thing. The alternative to this would be something like giving Broodlords spell immunity, and that would make PvZ nigh-unwinnable in the lategame, as it's nearly impossible to kill a full Inf/BL army without Vortex (just like it's nearly impossible to kill a Colo deathball without BL tech). Snipe on Ghosts was only ever used in TvZ to construct that unstoppable deathball, and as such a nerf to Snipe is a nerf not to Terran but to unstoppable Terran deathballs.
They could have made it do less against broodlords and ultra types, you know massives sense they are the only massive units that can be sniped. 
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On February 11 2012 07:05 ToastieNL wrote:
So.... Snipe got completely raped into hitting everything for 25 damage except for High Templar and Infestor (to whom EMP is mostly the better option anyways...)... Way to go Blizzard...
10 Snipe / Broodlord is not doable, 19 / Ultra is even worse; you can't play that fast and Scrollstuff is not reliable!
It's been about equal for using emp/snipe on infestors since they're so large, now snipe is better since emp will hit 3 infestors 150 energy vs 150 and better range
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Snipe needed a nerf but 25 dmg for 25 energy is ridiculous
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On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\
So making Terran actually choose what unit they need to make late game TvZ instead of just mindlessly making ghosts is their vision and not related to balance? I think everyone's vision for the game should be a game in which you need to make decisions throughout the entire game and one unit isn't versatile enough to mass against anything. Same thing happened with infestors and now infestors seem pretty balanced with the fungal nerf.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
I'm still waiting for the day when I open one of these threads and see the removal of marauders and buff of mech.
Interesting changes overall. The snipe nerf definitely makes lategame TvZ much more challenging. T will have to hit ghost, marauder and viking timings perfectly now. It'll certainly make ultras a little more viable. Phoenix change is also very cool. I'm not sure how big of an impact it'll have, but it's definitely something to explore. The MULE change makes perfect sense, though I question why they don't just remove gold minerals altogether from the game. Oh, and I'm glad they're done faffing around with the APM.
Overall, very interesting!
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Big fan of the phoenix range buff. Maybe scrubs like me does not have to lose against mutas every single PvZ with this buff ;D
wp Blizzard...wp
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These are some of the stupidest arguments.
Snipe NEEDS to counter massive units. That's the fucking point. Who builds a 200-100 unit to shoot low tier units? Shoot 4 lings, you spent 200-100 to kill 100-0.
It's also why Ghost is perfectly fine AS IS. If he has fucking 20 ghosts, STOP making ultras and BL. Make fucking bane/lings, trades armies, and then watch him scramble to reproduce.
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On February 11 2012 06:50 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:45 mrtomjones wrote:On February 11 2012 06:41 Corvi wrote:
i doubt ghosts will ever be seen again in tvz after that patch ...
is blizzard even aware how expensive they are and what a huge investment it is to have a critical number to make it a viable counter to broodlords? EMP or Snipe for Infestors is still worth it easily dude. Snipe vs Mutas is worth it too. Ravens would work well against late game Broods so maybe you will see more of them. I feel missile needs more range on Ravens. 10 range BL>HSM. I like the Phoenix addition. Should be able to handle Mutas much more effectively while kiting. This should be interesting to see how much more Phoenix will be used.
snipe vs mutas will have lower dps than ghost's normal attack lol... snipe is slower and now it only does 25 damage, and it will do less damage and fire slower if ghosts have +3 attack.
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Yes, I'd like a 50 Energy Snipe with 80 damge (+10 Psionic) and a slightly longer charge before the shot. allowing for a 1shot on Inf/HT and requiring more energy management.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 07:09 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\ So making Terran actually choose what unit they need to make late game instead of just mindlessly making ghosts is their vision and not related to balance? I think everyone's vision for the game should be a game in which you need to make decisions throughout the entire game and one unit isn't versatile enough to mass against anything. Same thing happened with infestors and now infestors seem pretty balanced with the fungal nerf.
This might be a reasonable point if all our high tech units except ghosts weren't trash in general.
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Terran pretty underpowered in late game already... why nerf it? Honestly, before the nerf, using ghosts vs Z in lategame was already incredibly hard, I give props to any player capable of winning with snipes. Also, sad that they didn't address the tilted late game TvP.
Even as a terran I think the MULE change will be good. The phoenix range increase seems like it could be a little much? Why not change it to +1 range instead of +2? Now phoenix will have twice the range of mutas, I can see muta play forced out of the game in ZvP.
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On February 11 2012 07:09 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\ So making Terran actually choose what unit they need to make late game TvZ instead of just mindlessly making ghosts is their vision and not related to balance? I think everyone's vision for the game should be a game in which you need to make decisions throughout the entire game and one unit isn't versatile enough to mass against anything. Same thing happened with infestors and now infestors seem pretty balanced with the fungal nerf.
Making ghosts: mindless.
Making infestors: not mindless.
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good changes,
after watching nestea vs. genius i just wonder if protoss are just to stupid to split up there armies sometimes  but i know, it s hard after all these time...
instead of terrans crying and crying, they should realize that the other 2 races had to play against someone who needs to be continuisly nerfed...
snipe change is great for zerg, i don t really know how it will effect ghosts and various situations ( hopefully not to bad ).
i mean... wasn't it stupid that u could basically mass ghosts and counter both lategame units of zerg hardcore?
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EPT
