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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 07:01 SonOfBoxer wrote:
I'm reading this topic more attentively, and I'm seeing a LOT of Terran players whining about Snipe changes. What the actual f***? You guys get damage nerf, but still got Moebius Reactor.Plus, ghosts can cloak, shoot air, ground and call nukes. PLUS they have EMP. What's the big whining about infestors and broodlords? EMP the infestors, snipe the broodlords! What's the problem? You guys wanted a one-unit-serves-all for life? Isn't it enough that the EMP counters a whole Protoss army? What do you guys think Protoss felt when they removed the Amulet? You are only getting a minor nerf, quit whining!
is this guy for serious?
1) All of that cost resources to upgrade (honestly, you sound incredible ignorant), and invisibility isn't permanent so you have to choose between cloak, snipe and emp, you cant do all at once...
2) GL getting in range of broods when you have to unsiege and run away, only to be overwhelmed by lings. again, ghosts are meant to hold your defensive line not push an offensive one.
3) They removed the amulat because you warp in units, as opposed to building them. so if you make ht and i start building ghost they should have same amount of energy once ghost is done building (with upgrade). Think about it.
4) EMP is worthless against zealots (high HP)/stalkers (AOE too small to be effective anymore) and colosi (duh)- the most common units made in matchup.
5) If so many people are complaining about it (or whining as you call), perhaps there is some substance there?
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By the way, I think we needed some changes in roaches and colossi. Roaches are way too powerful, as are Colossi. Problem is: if you change one of them without changing the other, you simply destroy PvZ. Also, the marauder needs some adjustments as well. In general, it's good to see the game heading towards balance.
EDIT: In time!
On February 11 2012 07:15 moregamethanSEGA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:01 SonOfBoxer wrote:
I'm reading this topic more attentively, and I'm seeing a LOT of Terran players whining about Snipe changes. What the actual f***? You guys get damage nerf, but still got Moebius Reactor.Plus, ghosts can cloak, shoot air, ground and call nukes. PLUS they have EMP. What's the big whining about infestors and broodlords? EMP the infestors, snipe the broodlords! What's the problem? You guys wanted a one-unit-serves-all for life? Isn't it enough that the EMP counters a whole Protoss army? What do you guys think Protoss felt when they removed the Amulet? You are only getting a minor nerf, quit whining! is this guy for serious? 1) All of that cost resources to upgrade (honestly, you sound incredible ignorant), and invisibility isn't permanent so you have to choose between cloak, snipe and emp, you cant do all at once... 2) GL getting in range of broods when you have to unsiege and run away, only to be overwhelmed by lings. again, ghosts are meant to hold your defensive line not push an offensive one. 3) They removed the amulat because you warp in units, as opposed to building them. so if you make ht and i start building ghost they should have same amount of energy once ghost is done building (with upgrade). Think about it. 4) EMP is worthless against zealots (high HP)/stalkers (AOE too small to be effective anymore) and colosi (duh)- the most common units made in matchup. 5) If so many people are complaining about it (or whining as you call), perhaps there is some substance there?
It's so funny to see you terrans whining endlessly and pointlessly about everything! So, while you have a 1-Shot-All unit, everything is fine for you. As long as you're winning every tournament worldwide, it's fine for you. But when ONE minor change happens, you cry like babies instead of improving your gameplay? Sounds funny, to say the least.
And you can argue all you want about HT vs Ghost, the fact that Ghosts can still use ALL of it's abilities as soon as it enters the field, remains unchanged. HT is more expensive than ghosts and can only feedback when they enter the field. They can't even ATTACK! Plus, their move speed is simply ridiculous. I think YOU, sir, are the ignorant here.
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On February 11 2012 02:10 dragonborn wrote:
best maps
BEST balance patch
EVER EVER EVER
This echoes my sentiments exactly. Also, i wonder if this makes colossus phoenix photon cannon more viable
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On February 11 2012 07:10 architecture wrote:
These are some of the stupidest arguments.
Snipe NEEDS to counter massive units. That's the fucking point. Who builds a 200-100 unit to shoot low tier units? Shoot 4 lings, you spent 200-100 to kill 100-0.
It's also why Ghost is perfectly fine AS IS. If he has fucking 20 ghosts, STOP making ultras and BL. Make fucking bane/lings, trades armies, and then watch him scramble to reproduce.
You really think it's reasonable just to foreclose all tier 3 options because one player massed a relatively affordable spellcaster?
I think the snipe nerf/buff might be a bit much (note, being able to 2 snipe infestors, vs 3 now, is a buff) vs broods, but it's not game-breaking, and overall it seems understandable considering just how much value Terran can get out of a 200/100 spellcaster.
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On February 11 2012 07:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hmm, I just realized that Blizzard just gave Terran an answer to Chargelot/Archon... Ghosts beat Archons even harder now i guess.
![[image loading]](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/126/314/3cd8a33a.png?1306264975)
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 11 2012 06:59 Zato-1 wrote:
... whoa. Phoenixes, which were supposed to be the Protoss counter to mutalisks... will now be able to counter mutalisks?
Mind = blown
The MULE change is overdue, won't make a difference for GSL because they got rid of gold expansions due to this issue, but will be a welcome change for ladder.
The Ghost change is favorable to Zerg in lategame TvZ, which is alright IMO because Ghosts were, in fact, countering Brood Lords too well*.
*due to the Brood Lord's super slow movement, it's immensely powerful in combat (just like how mutas are super mobile but weak in combat). It should therefore be pretty hard to counter- and Ghosts were countering them a bit too well, considering the above.
Exactly, a BIT too well.
I'd be ok with a -10 for massive or even -15 but 25 against allwhat isn't psionic is a little too much.
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On February 11 2012 07:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hmm, I just realized that Blizzard just gave Terran an answer to Chargelot/Archon... Ghosts beat Archons even harder now i guess.
and thats why threads like this are useless, people with completely 0 knowledge try to talk about balance and when pros write their opinion they get flamed lol
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I find the comments hilarious that say that the snipe nerf is unfair because now terrans have to react to tech switches. I guess those people think its fair to rather have 1 unit have counters everything. This makes the game more versatile and exciting. Players have to react and adapt constantly throughout the game instead of sitting in base without caring what the opponent is doing. Also... 25+25psionic... isnt that a +5 buff against toss? I wonder if scroll sniping will come into play and melt some away some toss units. As for phoenix range, it just makes kiting mutas easier since it was already possible to kite mutas without the phoenix range upgrade. I wonder if the range will have any game applications besides just countering mutas
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As a midmasters zerg I don't like a lot of this patch. Mules=fine. Snipe was way overdone. As someone already pointed out ghosts no longer 1 shot banes...that was a nice micro advantage terrans had and seemed quite fair. While op en mass dropping the damage THAT much will pull the matchup heavily in zergs favor late game. In a matchup that. Is pretty even I hope blizz didn't go too far.
Pheonix range seems a bit to much as well. Honestly, I would have liked to see a 5 range pheonic with no beacon required. It'd fix toss troubles with mutas and wouldn't effect the late game as much. Let's not forget that mutas became popular because ffe/toss balls are too difficult to break post infestor nerf. By the time the beacon is done and upgraded tosses are better off getting mothership. A straight tech to 6 range pheonix will be interesting because there will be a lot of openings for Z tto roach infestor attack.
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On February 11 2012 07:01 SonOfBoxer wrote:
I'm reading this topic more attentively, and I'm seeing a LOT of Terran players whining about Snipe changes. What the actual f***? You guys get damage nerf, but still got Moebius Reactor.Plus, ghosts can cloak, shoot air, ground and call nukes. PLUS they have EMP. What's the big whining about infestors and broodlords? EMP the infestors, snipe the broodlords! What's the problem? You guys wanted a one-unit-serves-all for life? Isn't it enough that the EMP counters a whole Protoss army? What do you guys think Protoss felt when they removed the Amulet? You are only getting a minor nerf, quit whining!
First off, calm yourself.
Any good player will not let their infestors be clumped up for an EMP, so EMP is a very energy-intensive, yet ineffective way of hurting a good zerg - not valid. You mentioned sniping brood lords - this change only makes it harder for their snipes do anything. (Btw bringing up that point only hurts your argument.)
We don't have a one-unit-serves-all for life. The ghost costs 200 minerals, 100 gas. For that, I could almost get a tank, or two marauders with some gas remaining. In return, I feel it offers little to nothing vs. brood lords for that money. Keep in mind that even if we have twenty, fungals + army actually kills them pretty quickly, even if they are cloaked.
When you asked "What's the problem?" I was lead to believe that you have never played this game from a terran point of view if the zerg controls their infestors and brood lords/corruptors correctly. Vikings die, ghosts now become even less useful, and everything else just withers away.
The ghost attacking ground and air is laughable - their DPS is horrid for cost.
Sure, Moebius Reactor is good, but the energy just doesn't do as much anymore. They can cloak, but you should have detection at that point (I say should because I have no idea what league you're even in), and calling nukes is retarded vs. army units, though vs. bases, it still holds some merit. Even then, nukes cost money, supply, and the possible life of the expensive (200/100) ghost along with them - oftentimes only to kill nothing because you found the dot.
As for TvP, I used to play toss - the Amulet let me instantly warp in a templar anywhere on the map and storm at will. Drops become useless for any terran with 1 templar and 2-3 zealots per base. Ghosts do not NEARLY shut down the same level of warp prism harass etc. from protoss - protoss players simply refuse to use the only drop tech they have, and complain. (Confusing to me.) EMP doesn't counter the army completely even when blanketed, and keeping templar a bit behind the rest of the army and spreading mana units fares well against them now.
EMP now only takes around 50% of the previous area, and does less damage to shields/energy than before. It does little to a non-clumped up army unless we have multiple ghosts - again, this costs a LOT of money and takes away from overall DPS in the hopes of a few lucky EMPs. Colossi are unfazed, archons are unfazed, and zealots are relatively unfazed (only 50 shields).
This is in NO way a minor nerf. First it was the ghost EMP damage, then it's EMP aoe, then it's snipe. Our spells are becoming less and less effective, and our units, while initially too strong, are starting to become, to say the least, shit.
I feel like you need to elaborate on your points or stop talking that way, personally.
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On February 11 2012 07:15 jgelling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:10 architecture wrote:
These are some of the stupidest arguments.
Snipe NEEDS to counter massive units. That's the fucking point. Who builds a 200-100 unit to shoot low tier units? Shoot 4 lings, you spent 200-100 to kill 100-0.
It's also why Ghost is perfectly fine AS IS. If he has fucking 20 ghosts, STOP making ultras and BL. Make fucking bane/lings, trades armies, and then watch him scramble to reproduce. You really think it's reasonable just to foreclose all tier 3 options because one player massed a relatively affordable spellcaster?
I'd be ok with it if my tier 3 were as strong as Z, but as it is, Battle cruisers almost never have a place in TvZ or even TvP.
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Do you know how to do math:
3 ghosts 600/300, 1 Ultra 300/200
2 ghosts 400/200, 1 BL 300/250
Looks in line to me.
If someone had all tanks, would you make roaches? If someone had all ultras, would you make vikings?
If someone had 20 ghosts, would you throw tier 3 inefficiently at them?
You know how armies can die? You know how you can kill the ghosts with a different composition, and remax as another composition?
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The solution to nerfing ghosts? Make more of them, duh. 
I mean, the scroll wheel trick can still gib-ify a hole Hive army in seconds.
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On February 11 2012 07:12 Cloud9157 wrote:
Hmm, I just realized that Blizzard just gave Terran an answer to Chargelot/Archon... Ghosts beat Archons even harder now i guess.
minus the chargelot part... LOLOL
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On February 11 2012 07:14 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:13 Salteador Neo wrote:On February 11 2012 07:10 architecture wrote:
Who builds a 200-100 unit to shoot low tier units? Protoss. Actually Collosus are way more expensive Thats true, but Colossi kinda have splash damage while Ghosts are really a single target unit.
I was just messing around, but honestly do I have to say which other robo unit does exactly that?
Ghosts are mainly used to counter the other casters and they still do that, even slightly better now. All this feels exactly like the overraction to the EMP radius nerf or the protoss upgrades "buffs". Just chill.
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On February 11 2012 07:06 architecture wrote:
For people that think Ghosts counter everything Zerg has:
Can you explain to me: when you have 40 food in 20 ghosts, how does that counter mass ling/banes?
The thing with that is that late game, the upgrades are good enough, and the Terran has tanks, that mass ling/bling just melts to Terran armies. Zerg needs Broodslords/Ultras/Infestors to push back the Terran, but Snipe was just destroying that also. Now there is a way for Zerg to fight back. (Assuming the change helps Z)
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This patch is the first one that makes most sense imo. Good shit blizz.
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On February 11 2012 06:55 ThatGuy89 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 06:52 Rye. wrote:
Sigh,
Why nerf the unit that takes a silly amount of APM to work. Should buff and nerf the a-move broodlords so when microd they are better, but when not mircod they are weaker. Same for ultras. I get so angry when i lose to a-move tactics. No wonder i dont play much 1v1 anymore. (i play terran)
Also, zerg players should bear in mind that they actually get to use T3.
In TvP
Thors and battlecruisers are a no go. There are a million threads about these. They just dont work. Dont believe me? search the forums
In TvZ
Thors dont hold up that well in late game but they can be useful, but its likely something else will be a better use of resources. Broods deal with them easily, ultras arnt bad either, and mass zerglings do well since terrans will be going marauder / ghost / viking (will have few helions or tanks, maybe marines).
Battlecruisers dont work since mass corrupter is easy and common and then they turn into broods. BC's cant be massed. high cost, slow build time, who the hell has a high number of starports with tech labs? also...
In both TvZ and TvP, getting Ground, Mech and air upgrades is near impossible.
In terms of T3 and their counters, terran has it bad.
As for ravens. Once you've cast Seeker missile, your raven becomes a useless chunk of metal that gobbles supply. Autoturrents are only good for harass, and for cost of raven and time for energy, they suck. Better having 2 marines.
Seriously David Kim, make mechanics more rewarding for Zerg (and protoss) instead of nerfing terran because their good mechanics can be powerful. im sorry are you calling snipe a 'good mechanic'? im not sure if troll or just stupid....
It is.
Compare to bad mechanic, which would be "attack move behind enemy army".
You know, like stim and attack for example. Do you want to only fight against marine marauder the rest of your life?
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EPT
