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Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 79

Forum Index > SC2 General
4449 CommentsPost a Reply
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.

Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions.
Badfatpanda
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States9719 Posts
February 10 2012 21:57 GMT
#1561
This kinda firms up the opinion that HotS would be a 2013 release, they said they'd prefer to make no balance changes prior to the xpac release...so I'd imagine it's farther away than they anticipated.

I think the phoenix range buff, going to be interesting to see when toss incorporate the fleet beacon into their play. The ghost nerf is acceptable and I'm glad that you'll always 2 shot infestors now, though I don't really get the MULE change, it'd be easier just to eliminate gold's from the maps.

Would really have liked to see a change in PvT but phoenix buff should make for some cool mid game comps
Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy. -Beethoven | Mech isn't a build, it's a way of life. -MajOr | Charlie.Sheen: "What is sarcastic, kids who have no courage to fight?" | #TerranPride #yolo #swag -Naama after 2-0'ing MC at HSC VI
HallBregg
Profile Joined November 2010
134 Posts
February 10 2012 21:57 GMT
#1562
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\
proves and pilons
Gary Oak
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada2381 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-10 22:05:29
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1563
The Snipe change has left me scratching my head as to what I'm supposed to do against Broodlords. If they're protected by Infestors and Corruptors, Vikings aren't really a viable counter and neither are Marines. It'd be nice if Thors worked against them, but armour mechanics vs Thor volleys in combination with them doing half damage against anything that isn't light simply won't let them work.

What's left? Are Terrans supposed to get 3-4 Tech Lab Starports and crank Ravens in hopes that HSM will do the trick? It's the only thing I can think of due to the Ghost nerf and the fact that any non-mech Terran composition either simply takes less than all of their gas lategame or has a few thousand spare gas in the bank. The only problem with this tactic is the Ravens are more or less flying paperweights when Zerg refills his supply on Ultralisks. If only BCs were useful. Yamato deals with Broods quite nicely, but the build time and the energy ramp up required not to mention the mineral investment is just too much.

While I agree that Ghosts are too much of a "catch-all" crutch against Zerg Hive units, I'm just not sure what Terran is supposed to do with them being far less effective when Zerg throws an Infestor/Broodlord army at you and then remaxes on Ultra Ling.

[Edit] To discuss the other balance changes, I absolutely love them. Mutalisks are just insane against Protoss, and the TLPD winrate charts helps reflect that statement. Since Archon Toilet is becoming more and more standard for PvZ, I think the Phoenix upgrade will get used a lot since we're seeing Fleet Bacons quite a bit lategame.

I also applaud the MULE change. Terran shouldn't have ever had such a huge advantage on gold patches from the get go. I'm wondering if we'll see gold minerals come back on certain maps in high class tournaments such as GSL in the wake of such a change.
[14:15] <+Skrammen> I like clicking Gary's links, kinda. Its like playing with lava.
Amlitzer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States471 Posts
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1564
Hopefully with the phoenix buff on the fleet beacon we still see more advance stargate play which in turn will lead to more carrier play. One can only hope.
"Not even justice, I want to get truth!"
NoobCrunch
Profile Joined December 2011
79 Posts
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1565
2 thumbs down on this patch.
Kruxt
Profile Joined April 2010
United States113 Posts
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1566
On February 11 2012 05:48 devPLEASE wrote:
I think the ghost snipe thing is pretty okay. I mean it'll take less to kill high templars and investors since it does 50 damage to them but it also isn't an auto kill Zerg unit like it once was. Might be still though we will see once it comes out. For now, TGIF


It still takes 2 snipes to kill a caster
Protect Ya Neck
dde
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada796 Posts
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1567
On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\


good points
yes
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
February 10 2012 21:58 GMT
#1568
On February 11 2012 06:38 roymarthyup wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 06:17 Ghostfoot wrote:
On February 11 2012 06:11 The KY wrote:
On February 11 2012 06:03 Qaatar wrote:
On February 11 2012 05:59 Whitewing wrote:
On February 11 2012 05:56 oxxo wrote:
On February 11 2012 05:55 AnYvia wrote:
LOL I called the ghost change back when there was the MVP vs July in GSL Semifinal (I think). I think this will make terrans play a little more creatively late game.


You shouldn't have. Mvp was already ahead and July completely throw away his ultras. He sent them against CCs and let them all be sniped. He could have just killed every ghost right there. That's a horrible game to use as an example of 'overpowered snipe'. It's like a terran sending 20 tanks unsieged into a horde of zerglings and then complaining that zerglings are overpowered.


Okay, how about Nestea vs. MVP at Blizzcon on Shakuras?


Shakuras is a terrible map for TvZ.

Also, funny how it's always MVP who crops up in these example discussions.



Plus did you watch that game? Anyone who watches that and goes yep, nothing the zerg could have done there is BATSHIT INSANE. Nestea was in the tens of thousands of resources, maxed out, for about 10 minutes while he did literally nothing except kill the marines MVP sent out to die so he could remax on ghosts. It continues to baffle me what Nestea was thinking...200/200 and untold resources and he defends...aaaaah whaaaat.


I wonder. In a hypothetical situation where that game was played out with the snipe nerf, would Mvp actually have any chance vs Nestea there? I mean, he cleaned it up but if he required even 50% (and from what I can tell, its greater) more snipes to do that, I think he wouldn't have held. I suppose only time will tell and we'll have to new other ways of dealing with heavy BL/infestor counts.



i think MVP could have held in that situation in the new patch if he goes for some ravens instead of ghosts. actually snipe is now so bad in terns of damage that terrans should only get 2-3 ghosts for EMP and +bonus damage to light, and ravens should be the new damage spellcaster now

the new buffed HSM is so fricken overpowered and it will take a while for terrans to realize it. . just wait until terran turn that floating 1000gas lategame into 5 HSM's . it obliterates a 200food army and now HSM flys faster than every unit other than hellions and speedlings

theres a reason super lategame stalemate mass battlecruiser/viking TvT always devolves into a bunch of HSM's per side and whoever HSM's better wins

the same concept terran says against fungal about how its impossible to not let clumps of vikings get fungalled because zerg waits until vikings engage before they come in with infestors and fungal them, thats the same tactic terran can use with HSM against clumped broodlords

same concept applies to HSM. terran may say they cannot use HSM because the ravens will just get chain fungalled before they can deploy it, however thats not true because whats stopping infestors from getting EMP'ed before they get off their fungals against vikings?

its the same logic. one side is terrans saying you cannot use emp to stop the infestors from getting off their chain fungals on the vikings, but on the other hand terrans are saying zerg CAN stop ravens from getting off their HSM's?

why can the zerg stop it, but the terran cant?

the truth is terrans saying that just havnt tried HSM and truly abused it. its just as powerful or even more powerful than fungal now that the missiles fly about as fast as mutalisks

everything terran complains about in fungals, they will realize once they start adding in 10 ravens to their army they actually have had a more powerful version of fungal all along (actually, not all along, just since the massive buff to HSM)

the only thing HSM doesnt obliterate is ultra-ling, however planetaries and marauders/hellions/medivacs deal with that nicely

once terran realize the power of HSM they will start having higher winrates. HSM is pretty ridiculous right now but its needed to counter how stupid powerful fungal is. fungal in its current state will always hit bunched up vikings that are trying to counter broodlords, and 1 fungal on some vikings ends up doing 300+damage for 75energy

id say the new lategame army against zerg will be a frontline of marauder/hellion to deal with ultra ling, and then 2 tanks and 3medivacs with some marines behind that, and its very important to use the marauder/hellion to defend the tank/marine/medivac from fungals since marines are important anti air but die quick to fungals

next the rest of terrans food is in raven / viking and its important to magic box them. terran keeps his tanks unsieged until he is 100% sure broodlords are gone. when the zerg comes in with broodlords you use HSM + vikings to try to kill all the broodlords. once the broodlords are dead, then you can siege up your 2 tanks which help immensely against the ultralisks with the marines and marauder/hellion support



however, i should also point out even though i think the snipe change is bad i guess in the scheme of things it makes sense because ghosts have an autoattack while infestors do not.

but 25 damage for 25 energy seems insane. micro'ing that is almost not even worth it Ghosts use EMP on casters, not snipe

so i think snipe should probably be renamed to explosive sniper round 125 energy for 150 damage and allow it to hit mechanical units, limiting ghosts to 1snipe, but its easier to use a ton of snipes, and now snipe will 1shot zealots which lategame is a big deal because 1ghost is 2food, 1zealot is 2food, and if 1ghost can just instantly obliterate 2food it seems worth it.

snipe would also deal 150 damage to a stalker which leaves the stalker with 10hp remaining. snipe would also 2shot voidrays or 3shot collossi

also, it would kind of balance in TvP slightly maybe because now templars just oblierate a bunch of marines with a single storm. if ghosts could 1shot zealots with snipe and 1shot stalkers with snipe it would be pretty cool to see
kineSiS-
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Korea (South)1068 Posts
February 10 2012 21:59 GMT
#1569
Are you ridiculous? Phoenix are already easily massed up to counter mutalisk... With 6 range it'll be a massacre.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
February 10 2012 21:59 GMT
#1570
... whoa. Phoenixes, which were supposed to be the Protoss counter to mutalisks... will now be able to counter mutalisks?

Mind = blown

The MULE change is overdue, won't make a difference for GSL because they got rid of gold expansions due to this issue, but will be a welcome change for ladder.

The Ghost change is favorable to Zerg in lategame TvZ, which is alright IMO because Ghosts were, in fact, countering Brood Lords too well*.

*due to the Brood Lord's super slow movement, it's immensely powerful in combat (just like how mutas are super mobile but weak in combat). It should therefore be pretty hard to counter- and Ghosts were countering them a bit too well, considering the above.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
SoulSever
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada779 Posts
February 10 2012 21:59 GMT
#1571
I think the change they should make to high yields is to implement high yield geysers on each base. A zerg taking a gold is rarely worth the risk but extra gas could be an incentive
Violet <3 ~~~Better places than here exist
Greenei
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany1754 Posts
February 10 2012 21:59 GMT
#1572
On February 11 2012 06:55 ThatGuy89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 06:52 Rye. wrote:
Sigh,
Why nerf the unit that takes a silly amount of APM to work. Should buff and nerf the a-move broodlords so when microd they are better, but when not mircod they are weaker. Same for ultras. I get so angry when i lose to a-move tactics. No wonder i dont play much 1v1 anymore. (i play terran)

Also, zerg players should bear in mind that they actually get to use T3.
In TvP
Thors and battlecruisers are a no go. There are a million threads about these. They just dont work. Dont believe me? search the forums

In TvZ
Thors dont hold up that well in late game but they can be useful, but its likely something else will be a better use of resources. Broods deal with them easily, ultras arnt bad either, and mass zerglings do well since terrans will be going marauder / ghost / viking (will have few helions or tanks, maybe marines).
Battlecruisers dont work since mass corrupter is easy and common and then they turn into broods. BC's cant be massed. high cost, slow build time, who the hell has a high number of starports with tech labs? also...
In both TvZ and TvP, getting Ground, Mech and air upgrades is near impossible.

In terms of T3 and their counters, terran has it bad.
As for ravens. Once you've cast Seeker missile, your raven becomes a useless chunk of metal that gobbles supply. Autoturrents are only good for harass, and for cost of raven and time for energy, they suck. Better having 2 marines.

Seriously David Kim, make mechanics more rewarding for Zerg (and protoss) instead of nerfing terran because their good mechanics can be powerful.


im sorry are you calling snipe a 'good mechanic'?
im not sure if troll or just stupid....


of corse it is oO

especially if you have to split, stim focusfire stutterstep and do millions of other things to hold your own against p or z.
IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA
Raambo11
Profile Joined April 2011
United States828 Posts
February 10 2012 21:59 GMT
#1573
On February 11 2012 06:50 ToInfinity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.

"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."

So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.

Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml

btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.

Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.

Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.

JOY.


3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine?

its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable


All this pointing at GSL and saying Terran's are fine is really starting to frustrate me. 3/8 of the top 8 being Terran looks alot different when you consider Code S is what, 66%+ Terran? And this snipe nerf is utterly rediculous.

I can see it right now, the whole Blizzard team watching the Blizzcon finals and going SNIPE SO OP, or watching WCG and drawing ridiculous conclusions. It is impossible to realize how difficult and massivly expensive it is, not to mention how long you need to wait to get 20 ghosts with maxed energy to completely nullify a mass blord/ultra army. Meanwhile you can easily get a moved by a maxed crackling/bling army. If hes teching up to mass ghosts and just turtling, you can nydus his main snipe his production, send a few blings and bust one of his expos, drop your whole army somewhere etc etc. TBH i doubt snipe would have gotten nerfed if MVP didn't use ghosts so heavily, in games he could have won without ghosts.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15662 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1574
On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\


If you're referring to the Ghost, I think its still a fair change. TvZ progressed as the game went on to getting as many ghosts as you can, then sniping. To me, this just looks silly and really takes away from the game. Instead of it being like "Making Zerg units? Go for Ghosts." It becomes "Making ultras? Marine marauder. Making Air? Vikings. Making infestors? Ghosts."

I play Protoss and even I thought it looked dumb.
Xivsa
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1009 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1575
Seems like a decent patch to me. The phoenix buff helps on paper, but I wonder how many will actually get the upgrade and how often at levels below masters. The MULE change was obvious. And ghosts being less effective against all of Zerg T3 is welcome, by me anyway.
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - Bilbo
jgelling
Profile Joined February 2011
55 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1576
On February 11 2012 06:53 Sackings wrote:
its time for the price of the fleet beacon to be lowered to something reasonable... 300/200 really? what is the justification for it being the most expensive building in the game? Seems like another one of those examples where they just kept the price the same as it was in BW, yet in Sc2 its usefulness is nowhere near what it was in BW....

I tend to agree. When carriers were kings of the air, the fleet beacon cost made sense. When they removed flux vanes, they (strangely) never lowered the cost, and making air tech cost more than the other two, more powerful, tech options is really just a strange holdover from BW.

It doesn't look like the tier 3 air situation will be improved in HoTS, so it is strange Protoss tier 3 air is so expensive for what it delivers, especially if the Mothership is removed.
roymarthyup
Profile Joined April 2010
1442 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1577
On February 11 2012 06:43 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
@roymarthyup - you are talkin craziness bro. straight craziness. your 'raven revolution' is a sweet dream, but just that, a dream. mutas, stalkers, and stim bio can also outrun seekers. the AOE for the missle is also terrbile. you be lucky to hit 5 maruaders even if they are balled up... and btw if takes 2 HSM to kill 1 maurder LOL


i was talking about TvZ, where only speedlings and mutas can outrun HSM


TvT super lategame stalemate mass battlecruiser/viking already deteriorates into HSM wars. so i was right there too

in TvP, i dont expect ravens to be good anytime soon due to feedback
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1578
On February 11 2012 06:55 Vehemus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 11 2012 06:50 ToInfinity wrote:
On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote:
hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.

"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."

So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.

Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml

btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.

Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.

Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.

JOY.


3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine?

its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable


It seems fine, but they started with 15 Terrans in Code S and 3 are left.
They started with 8 Protoss in Code S and 4 are left.


And maybe all of those terrans shouldn't have been there in the first place? Plus mirror matchups knocking each other out.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
lorestarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
United States1049 Posts
February 10 2012 22:00 GMT
#1579
On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\


I think when a unit is used to KILL ALL THE THINGS! then it does go against Blizzard's vision and should be changed explicitly for balance.

They made the game. Their vision.
SC2 Mapmaker
nvrs
Profile Joined October 2010
Greece481 Posts
February 10 2012 22:01 GMT
#1580
On February 11 2012 06:57 HallBregg wrote:
What bother me the most is how blizzard keeps forcing players to play the game the way they think it has to be played, and if someone uses a unit in a different way to what they intended they nerf the hell out of it so its no longer possible. Balance is secundary to their vision of the game :\


Damn right, i am sick of this approach. As someone else said, well since we can't make the other races more interesting/versatile lets dumb down the one that is.
Whatever, i get my popcorn and watch this patch blow on Blizs face.
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