On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote: hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.
"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."
So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.
Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml
btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.
Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.
Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.
JOY.
3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine?
its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable
Instead 50% of the people in the tournament are protoss. Seems fine, right?
I'm reading this topic more attentively, and I'm seeing a LOT of Terran players whining about Snipe changes. What the actual f***? You guys get damage nerf, but still got Moebius Reactor.Plus, ghosts can cloak, shoot air, ground and call nukes. PLUS they have EMP. What's the big whining about infestors and broodlords? EMP the infestors, snipe the broodlords! What's the problem? You guys wanted a one-unit-serves-all for life? Isn't it enough that the EMP counters a whole Protoss army? What do you guys think Protoss felt when they removed the Amulet? You are only getting a minor nerf, quit whining!
Agree with the changes though i'm curious about a few things:
1. Whether or not fleet beacon is too hard of a tech path to be able to "react" to Muta play. (Stargate --> Fleet Beacon --> Upgrade time). I also could see zerg scouting the toss base more proactively to snipe the Fleet Beacon or the reactive Stargate.
2. Will the range upgrade for Phoenix prove to be useful vs. Terran? I could see Phoenix being great at sniping Medivacs at range 6. And they can get into Viking range to guard Colossus more quickly.
Really it just seems like zergs bitch so fucking loud they tend to get what they want, eventually.
I think the Terran action against BL/Infestor now is working to keep infestor count low via ghosts and/or sniping tech. When it comes to the fight, ghosts will have to snipe/emp infestors before magic boxing their vikings into the fight, hoping they still have some tanks and marines left to deal with the mass of zerglings/banelings. Eventually some fabulously skilled Korean will find a consistent way of making use of ravens to somehow accomplish the same thing, and a few months after that ravens will be nerfed before zergs should ever have to raise a finger of creativity towards dealing with the problem. I mean god fucking forbid they should try a roach/hydra follow up, or roach/ling, or mass nydus worming, or drop play of their own.
Then once ravens are nerfed, Terrans will be forced to go early vikings to clear overlords from the map so they can begin mass drop play, after which viking build time will be increased or muta's will have their movement speed increased and zerg building armor will be increased. From there, who knows? Maybe scv's will have their mining time increased, or marines will cost 100/50 each and have their damage and fire rate reduced.
On the global ladder, where 99.9% of the playing population resides in terms of skill, it isn't until you get down to Silver league where there are a greater number of Terran players than Zerg (I'm not considering GM because it's such a small sample of people relative to the other leagues, and that's the .1% skill exception). Any coincidence? I mean how much does the race need to be nerfed before it's realized that other races can step up their own play. I still haven't seen any protoss players regularly spread their units when entering a fight, imo you had that emp coming.
If you really believe people playing Terran do so because it's naturally a stronger race and will lead to easier wins, you're sadly mistaken. Does anyone who has an ounce of self worth realize how unsatisfying that would be? Anyone I've ever asked about playing Terran seriously all say it's the race with the highest skill ceiling and offers the greatest reward for reaching that ceiling. It's time to stop punishing them for playing so brilliantly and start asking others to step it up
On February 11 2012 06:34 moregamethanSEGA wrote: hmmm... two more nerfs to terran... surprise, surpise. Everytime I watch GSL terran is getting owned by toss and zerg (Nada, MKP, JJakji). This is such a joke... what do you expect when you can't spend your gas late game cause Blizzard makes worthless lategame terran units (thor, BC, banshee). you could argue that, terrans have no choice but to mass ghosts because there isn't another opportunity cost available to them.
"we were seeing a lot of games where terrans were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts" aka "we were seeing terrans use an unconventional, yet effective strategy late game vs zerg on extremely large macro maps when the zerg couldn't stop terran from getting on 4 base because they were too concerned with making 100 drones and 25 mutas instead of just strategically attacking before the terran was able to make ghosts to begin with."
So niche, so unnecessary - this is not terran's problem. Zerg can adapt with spines/spores/fungals to prevent ghost from moving up while the broods rain the pain down. I see it all the time. Or perhaps they could just make units that arent countered strongly by ghosts (lings roaches). OR (and this will blow ur mind) bane/roach drop on ghosts with brood corrupter support or (gasp) a nydus worm.
Unless I am mistaken the idea here is: punish terran for being TOO turtley by making them be even MORE turtley in order to get the insane amount of energy they will need to be effective against both zerg tier 2.5 and 3 units. I mean... 19 snipes to kill ultra... and now i can't snipe workers/zealots... fml
btw, question: does your data show you that terran is 'forced' to go bio in every matchup now? I saw MKP yesterday do a hellion tank marine build and it BARELY won against Genius. That was the most variation I have seen in TvP since Jinro was in GSL... and MKP still lost to Genius in the end. My point is maybe this wouldn't be a problem if terran wasnt always going bio to begin with.
Mech just isn't viable because hellions dont even counter zealots in TvP and anything except lings in TvZ so there is no 'meatsheld' for your army. On top of that terrans currently have no air-to-ground transitions to open with (or go late game with) vs zerg and toss - BC/banshees seem completely worthless in standard tvp and tvz.
Unless I am mistaken, now ghosts don't counter anything except infestors and hts. Man, what a veristile unit just like the thor and BC.
JOY.
3/8 of the quarter finalist play terran seems fine?
its not 6/8 like normal but 3 seems pretty reasonable
Hmmm... so what your saying is SC2 is balanced as-is. Thanks for proving my point...
On February 11 2012 06:52 Rye. wrote: Sigh, Why nerf the unit that takes a silly amount of APM to work. Should buff and nerf the a-move broodlords so when microd they are better, but when not mircod they are weaker. Same for ultras. I get so angry when i lose to a-move tactics. No wonder i dont play much 1v1 anymore. (i play terran)
Also, zerg players should bear in mind that they actually get to use T3. In TvP Thors and battlecruisers are a no go. There are a million threads about these. They just dont work. Dont believe me? search the forums
In TvZ Thors dont hold up that well in late game but they can be useful, but its likely something else will be a better use of resources. Broods deal with them easily, ultras arnt bad either, and mass zerglings do well since terrans will be going marauder / ghost / viking (will have few helions or tanks, maybe marines). Battlecruisers dont work since mass corrupter is easy and common and then they turn into broods. BC's cant be massed. high cost, slow build time, who the hell has a high number of starports with tech labs? also... In both TvZ and TvP, getting Ground, Mech and air upgrades is near impossible.
In terms of T3 and their counters, terran has it bad. As for ravens. Once you've cast Seeker missile, your raven becomes a useless chunk of metal that gobbles supply. Autoturrents are only good for harass, and for cost of raven and time for energy, they suck. Better having 2 marines.
Seriously David Kim, make mechanics more rewarding for Zerg (and protoss) instead of nerfing terran because their good mechanics can be powerful.
im sorry are you calling snipe a 'good mechanic'? im not sure if troll or just stupid....
As in micro mechanics. I cant stand how a-movey broods and ultras are. Same for a lot of other units.
Stutter step may be "easy" but can you do it whilst macroing? Vikings are king of the skies, but only if micro is applied. Can u macro at the same time. Banshees, bad when stood still, thats why they get micro'd emp's and snipes from ghost require accuracy and apm. Tanks need sieging and unsieging and decent positioning. now, can u do all the above at the same time whilst macroing?
What do Protoss and Zerg get???? a-move. Zerglings, collosus, zealots, archons, broodlords, ultras, hydras, roaches, banelings, corruptors, immortals, dark templars. Non of those require much micro, maybe a baneling split or something, but thats about it.
Infestors. great, high templar. great. pheonixes and mutas. great. but thats about the limit. i have no problem with these.
Blizz announces quite possibly their most reasonable patch, which pros will most certainly support and agree with, and captain bronzeterran furiously types away that he should be able to one-shot whatever unit he wants with snipe, while captain bronzezerg is pissed cause terrans are floating 4k against him, so what difference will the MULE nerf make.... sigh.
I'm just going to stop reading now.... brain... melting..... oww...
So.... Snipe got completely raped into hitting everything for 25 damage except for High Templar and Infestor (to whom EMP is mostly the better option anyways...)... Way to go Blizzard...
10 Snipe / Broodlord is not doable, 19 / Ultra is even worse; you can't play that fast and Scrollstuff is not reliable!
I can understand snipe vs. ultras, but against broods that was basically the only way to really kill them once the zerg went infestors + corrupters. Vikings are good but if they get fungalled it's gg. Idk, we'll have to see. I, and a lot of terrans, are having a ton of trouble late game tvz and this is going to make it even worse if this change goes through
On February 11 2012 06:59 SoulSever wrote: I think the change they should make to high yields is to implement high yield geysers on each base. A zerg taking a gold is rarely worth the risk but extra gas could be an incentive
+1 for this. If blizzard insists on keeping gold bases then its only fair to see HQ geysers considering Protoss and zerg (to a lesser extent) do not benefit that much from gold minerals. Maybe we'll see them in HOTS. Potentially imba though, considering Toss would be able to do whatever they want on only 3 bases since they have the equivalent of 8 gases.
On February 11 2012 05:48 devPLEASE wrote: I think the ghost snipe thing is pretty okay. I mean it'll take less to kill high templars and investors since it does 50 damage to them but it also isn't an auto kill Zerg unit like it once was. Might be still though we will see once it comes out. For now, TGIF
It still takes 2 snipes to kill a caster
It was 3 for infestor since they regenerated 1 health instantly
Wow, all those changes were needed, great job from Blizzard.
Range 6 Phoenixes will never be hit by Mutas, but Fleet Beacon is quite big investment. This can be really good or completely worthless. Other things are just awesome.
I am not a zerg player but I definitely agree with the snipe change for ghosts against zerg hive units. Too many t v z games recently devolved into the zerg player desperately trying to figure out how to break the terran, while the terran just building up energy on their ghosts.
These are some interesting changes, but I feel they will be good ones overall.
EPT
