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dekarp
286 Posts
I don't like the word because I can just picture some astute tryhard sitting behind his computer and slamming in the word "metagame" 30 times in a 500 word blog about how the "metagame" is shifting. I don't care about the actual definition, because to everyone else it has a different meaning, whether that meaning is correct or not... don't really care. There are better, more universally defined terms you can use to articulate your thoughts on a subject. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
On February 03 2012 15:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I feel like this falls under a area with "cheese" and "allin" and "pressure-play" If I hear another person call the 1/1/1 a cheese and not an allin, I MIGHT pull my eyes out... Or someone telling me that going 7gate allin or opening 4gate vs terran is just a "pressure play" and NOT an allin -.- I feel like the only people who really understand the simple terminology in SC now'adays is old BW players, I find it hard to talk with someone who calls a 4gate or any form of allin a cheese. Sorry for the rant/I agree with your statements on metagame. You haven't been on the SC2 forums much have you? Cheese: When someone attacks me before I give them permission to. All In: Is the only reason that attack killed me. Any other definition would suggest that the player who has just been cheesed or all-inned lost because his opponent was better and not because his opponent was obviously cheating the game in some unfair way. That is not acceptable--there needs to be something to blame other than weaker mechanics, bad scout timings, lack of game sense and going on tilt. | ||
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Sorathez
Australia209 Posts
Metagaming is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. This is the definition wikipedia gives.In simple terms, it is the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions. Wikipedia also defines the prefix "meta" as: Meta- (from Greek: μετά = "after", "beyond", "adjacent", "self"), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter. But since this is wikipedia, take these with a grain of salt.The phrase "outside the game" is very general, as technically, all decisions made by a player are made outside the game (in their brain), and is as such, technically "metagame" if you choose to go by the definition that 'Metagame' implicitly requires one to act outside of the rule set of a game. As such, any strategy that a player utilises is "metagame", as the ideas involved in it are not a part of the game itself, rather a conscious decision made in the player's mind. It also means that the set of strategies used commonly are "metagame" as they are unwritten rules in the players' minds as to what is "supposed" to happen in the game, while not being enforced by the game itself. The game merely gives them the tools to turn their ideas in to (virtual) reality. In such a case, ALL the examples given in the OP are correct, however I would tend to skew the definition towards something related the game itself, and not just the mindgames between the players, such as attempting to psych out your opponent using words, and as such disqualify example 3. As itsjustatank suggested on page 1 (from whom the above definition is quoted), the word Paradigm is a word the can replace the current common use of the word "metagame" in some situations, that is, when used as "the set of strategies in current common use", however, it would be strange to say (for example): "Leenock paradigmed MC by going for a 6-pool against his nexus first," where perhaps, metagamed would (if not more correct) at least sound better. TL:DR - Metagaming means that you have done something beyond the game itself. This INCLUDES the decisions you have consciously made as well as the strategies you choose to employ, as they are not an inherent part of the game but rather a part of the player's mind, channeled in to the game. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
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Mord
Norway171 Posts
On February 03 2012 16:43 Sorathez wrote: This is the definition wikipedia gives. Wikipedia also defines the prefix "meta" as: But since this is wikipedia, take these with a grain of salt. The phrase "outside the game" is very general, as technically, all decisions made by a player are made outside the game (in their brain), and is as such, technically "metagame" if you choose to go by the definition that As such, any strategy that a player utilises is "metagame", as the ideas involved in it are not a part of the game itself, rather a conscious decision made in the player's mind. It also means that the set of strategies used commonly are "metagame" as they are unwritten rules in the players' minds as to what is "supposed" to happen in the game, while not being enforced by the game itself. The game merely gives them the tools to turn their ideas in to (virtual) reality. In such a case, ALL the examples given in the OP are correct, however I would tend to skew the definition towards something related the game itself, and not just the mindgames between the players, such as attempting to psych out your opponent using words, and as such disqualify example 3. As itsjustatank suggested on page 1 (from whom the above definition is quoted), the word Paradigm is a word the can replace the current common use of the word "metagame" in some situations, that is, when used as "the set of strategies in current common use", however, it would be strange to say (for example): "Leenock paradigmed MC by going for a 6-pool against his nexus first," where perhaps, metagamed would (if not more correct) at least sound better. TL:DR - Metagaming means that you have done something beyond the game itself. This INCLUDES the decisions you have consciously made as well as the strategies you choose to employ, as they are not an inherent part of the game but rather a part of the player's mind, channeled in to the game. If we are using a wikipedia entry to validate our point in the first place, if you venture beyond the very first paragraph, the entry goes on to list some common examples of metagaming: - There is a special set of moves in chess which allows a player to win in four moves. Competitor A has been watching Competitor B play chess, and the past five games in a row Competitor B has attempted to use this four-move win. When Competitor A sits down to play against Competitor B, Competitor A will be metagaming if he/she plays in a way that will easily thwart the four-move checkmate before Competitor B makes it obvious that this is what he/she is doing. - In the popular trading card game Magic: The Gathering players compete with decks they have created in advance and the "metagame" consists of the deck types that are currently popular and expected to show up in large numbers in a tournament. The knowledge of metagame trends can give the players an edge against other participants, while playing (quickly recognizing what kind of deck opponents have to guess their likely cards and moves) and more importantly in the deck building process, by selecting and adapting designs to do well against the popular deck types at the expense of performance against rarer ones. It's also possible to bluff opponents into expecting cards that aren't there, or to surprise the competition with novel decks that nobody is prepared for. The secondary market of cards is heavily influenced by metagame trends: cards become more valuable when they are popular, often to the point of scarcity. - In fighting games such as Super Smash Bros. Brawl, metagaming may occur at the character select screen. The opposing character has various strengths that can be avoided and weaknesses that can be exploited more easily depending on the character you choose provided you are aware of those strengths and weaknesses (called a "match up"). For a basic example, a character with a projectile attack has the advantage over a grappler who must be close to the opponent to be effective. Match up metagaming is very important in tournament settings. | ||
Inflicted
Australia18228 Posts
On February 03 2012 15:53 NeMeSiS3 wrote: I feel like this falls under a area with "cheese" and "allin" and "pressure-play" If I hear another person call the 1/1/1 a cheese and not an allin, I MIGHT pull my eyes out... Or someone telling me that going 7gate allin or opening 4gate vs terran is just a "pressure play" and NOT an allin -.- I feel like the only people who really understand the simple terminology in SC now'adays is old BW players, I find it hard to talk with someone who calls a 4gate or any form of allin a cheese. Sorry for the rant/I agree with your statements on metagame. My definitions for cheese and all-in are: Cheese - Any strategy that purely relies on a denial of scouting in order for it to be effective/deal damage. This means that proxy strategies and hidden tech trees (DTs and banshees) are considered cheese. Some other strategies like a 4-Collosi/gateway push though, are hard to distinguish whether it is considered cheese or not and largely depends on how the player plans to execute the strategy. If they are relying on purely catching a Terran off-guard and without Vikings, then it would be cheese, but if it was apart of a strong push that accounted for most way it would be stopped, then it wouldn't be. All In - An strategy (or desperate decision) with the sole intent of overpowering your opponent's army by having a larger army force, due to having investing more into your army than your opponent. Most all-ins can be considered cheese because they often rely on a lack of scouting and your opponent being unprepared, in order for it work (strategies like 3-gate proxy void-ray or 6-pool). But non-cheese all-ins are strategies that are hard to stop even if scouted, because your army is purely stronger than your opponents (like the 1-1-1). | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
The winner of the game of wit is the person who gets the OTHER person to go "well you know what, YOU SUCK" so they can respond "bring it on" In magic, this would be like talking really loudly about how all OTK decks suck , but actually having one of those decks yourself. wait this obviously isn't witty but it prooves the same point. you're saying something completely unrelated to the game, but it clearly gives you the advantage. | ||
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Oiseaux
United States676 Posts
On February 03 2012 17:25 TheNessman wrote: I disagree with 3 because "wit" can be treated as a game, that qualifies it as a game about a game, so a metagame. We are playing "the game of wit" to see who gets the advantage in the "game of starcraft" that follows. distracting someone can be a strategy. It just normally isn't allowed (and isn't in bw pros lol) The winner of the game of wit is the person who gets the OTHER person to go "well you know what, YOU SUCK" so they can respond "bring it on" In magic, this would be like talking really loudly about how all OTK decks suck , but actually having one of those decks yourself. wait this obviously isn't witty but it prooves the same point. you're saying something completely unrelated to the game, but it clearly gives you the advantage. This is mindgames, not metagame. You can use the metagame to play mindgames, but that doesn't make them the same thing. The metagame is the assumptions of the game, mindgames try to alter those assumptions. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
where X is one of very many words, metaX is "to X about X", or some variation meaning the same. some examples: metathink, to think about thinking metametathink, to think about thinking about to think about thinking. metaplay, to play that you are playing metadimension, the dimension about dimensions metalight, the light which illuminates other light metahide, to hide from hiding metadata, data describing data metatext, a text about text metastarcraft, playing starcraft where you play starcraft (this can to date not be done, since there is no game called starcraft which can simulate the player playing itself, this is the reason there is talk about metagame but not about metastarcraft) metafun, to have fun as a result of having fun. metametafun, to have metafun as a result of having metafun = (to have (fun as a result of having fun) as a result of having (fun as a result of having fun)) I think Im having metametametafun right now. using this meaning, then metagame would be "a game where you play a game" so in other words, "to metagame" is simply short for "to play the metagame" which is further expanded to "to play the game where you play a game" this can mean almost anything, as it does not even describe what game we are playing when we are playing the game. in context of SC2, it would be "to play a game where you play SC2" in other words, metagame refers to the processes in your head when you try to win in <insert game>, which can encompasse anything remotely related to the game which will help you win in said game. it includes, but is not limited to: knowledge about the game your opponents weaknesses your strengths your opponents preferred strategies past events popular actions information of the game acquired from outside the game (such as streamcheating or the response from a crowd of spectators) of course, information about the game acquired from inside the game (such as scouting) etc. | ||
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Siffer
United States467 Posts
For example: In early BW pro scene, cheese tactics like 4 pooling was just not viable. The metagame was formed with such cheese in mind. However; as time went on, mechanics became a bigger role. Thus, high risk, high econ builds became the norm. At this point, Cheeses such as 4pool became somewhat viable again. Why? Because, for example, terrans needed the edge of going FE to compete with the zerg 'metagame.' Zergs would occasionally throw in a 4pool to help balance out the equation and keep greedy terrans in check. Overall, I think 'Metagame' is an awful word, imo. Whenever I see someone type metagame, I picture them as huge hipsters. I even jokingly asked an opponent what 'metagame' meant. his reply? "You wouldn't understand, so I'm not going to bother explaining.' Epitome of hipster. | ||
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Igaryu85
Germany195 Posts
I liked the definition of cheese and all in that just recently got quoted... allthough the trend in certain leagues to "cheese" ones way up the ladder can be quiet annoying as zerg especially from my slightly biased way of seeing things ;-). Thanks for the further wiki quote really goes to show we arent using the word in a wrong content...even if wiki may not be right it still shows that quiet a few people see it this way... | ||
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cydial
United States750 Posts
On February 03 2012 14:57 Mohdoo wrote: It pains me to see people think they are better informed on the meaning of metagame than tyler  SC2 community has brought us so many teenagers ;_;You mean like yourself? A teenager is usually one that can't stand a difference in opinion. | ||
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Blennd
United States266 Posts
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nastyyy
United States262 Posts
The term originates from the question of whether you take the comment seriously depending on the "level" you are thinking. In a game of poker, the levels of thinking are: level 0 = thinking about the cards you're holding level 1 = thinking about the cards your opponent is holding level 2 = thinking about what your opponent thinks you are holding level 3 = thinking about what your opponent thinks you think he his holding I really think the term "level" better fits the situations in which "metagame" is used. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
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Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
 Flash did vs  Stork in 2008 Bacchus OSL? He said in final interview on stage the that he had prepared stratigies for his carriers ("lying" ofc) cause in the OSL before he got raped by Stork's carriers, but instead he ended the final within an hour with going bio in all 3 games? | ||
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Blennd
United States266 Posts
On February 03 2012 17:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I agree with the OP, and unless i recall incorrectly, many don't think that either 1 or both of those definitions count as a "proper" way to use the word "metagame". Which is strange cus I don't know what else it could mean other than #3, which is mindgaming, not "metagaming" Mindgaming is metagaming. Or rather, mindgames are part of the metagame, as I'm not quite sure what the verb forms of either of those words are supposed to mean. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10321 Posts
On February 03 2012 17:58 Blennd wrote: Mindgaming is metagaming. Or rather, mindgames are part of the metagame, as I'm not quite sure what the verb forms of either of those words are supposed to mean. Oh, nevermind then, I agree with you metagaming: the use of out-of-game information or resources to affect one's in-game decisions. I didn't think metagaming was actually a word xD | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On February 03 2012 17:52 nastyyy wrote: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=level I really think the term "level" better fits the situations in which "metagame" is used. in that case, see the following timeline: day 1, SC2 was released today, noone have any idea what anyone is doing, everyone is thinking in level 0 day 2, people start to figure out what others are doing, and they are trying to counter it, they are thinking in level 1 day 3, people are starting to anticipate what the others are doing... day n, people are thinking in level n-1 | ||
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
1: You are playing on a map where Nexus First is a commonly used build for protoss, and so decide to proxy gate/rax or 6pool. You claim this is a "metagame choice". It's just matagaming, because you're using your knowledge about trends and probability of your enemy strategy as scouting information, without acquiring it in the game. 2: You say "there is a lot of hellion use in the current KR metagame." This is incorrect, and most SC2 comentators use it this way ;(. Those are just trends, and similarities in gameplay. But they happen in game, and have nothing to do with the metagame. Using this knowledge about current trends in your games is metagaming, but the trends themselves are not. 3: You remind your opponent that the last time you played, you mopped the floor with his noob self. As this statement is outside the rules of Starcraft 2 as a game, but is intended to give you an advantage, it is "metagaming". This is pure metagaming. You're using something outside of the game (words that can influence your oppononts psychology and decission making) instead of your in-game tools such as units or buildings. | ||
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