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On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people.
Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players.
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On February 01 2012 00:18 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:10 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:51 Ghanburighan wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:29 Candadar wrote:On January 31 2012 23:28 mcc wrote:On January 31 2012 23:14 Xalorian wrote:On January 31 2012 23:06 The Void wrote:On January 31 2012 22:56 ceaRshaf wrote:On January 31 2012 22:54 The Void wrote:
[quote]
strange... i worked alot and think that everybody can do what he wants (incl. facing the reaction on it).
am i really wrong? It's true you can come to work and do nothing all day, but it's also true that your manager has the right to take action. Am i really wrong? no that's obviously the same what i am thinking. the real case is that they had no rules. he offered to reschedule. i think he shouldn't play if he doesn't feel like able to do it. should he earn 2nd or 4th pricemoney? i don't really care. since he destroyed that Tourney i understand ONOG. BUT players SHOULD do what they want! A respected player isn't the one who say tom himself "ok im tired but i want that 2nd place pricemony - so i rush 3 games and say gg.", the decision from Stephano made him for me even more respected. despite i really wanted to see that Stephano/Kas final =[ but it's just his decision. end of story. No, players should not just be able to "DO WANT THEY WANT" without consequences. This is retarded. He is paid by is team and by events to play and entertain viewers. Forfeiting for ANY reasons should lose you any price money from this tournament. Sure, if you have a good reason (sickness, family problems, etc) people will understand and no one will hate the player for it, but no playing of all your matches, no price moneys. This should be a rule added to every tournaments, this way, no misunderstanding or drama. You can forfeit, but you can't expect money. But he is not paid by the tournament or the viewers. He is paid by his team and you have no idea what he is paid for. How do you know he is paid for entertaining viewers. Maybe they just pay him to quickly make some money on SC2 bubble and then move on (see someone else's post about goals of Millenium). And since he did not break tournament rules, taking his prizemoney is incorrect decision. If tournament had rules against forfeits then it would be ok. I am baffled that people are defending blatant unprofessionalism. It's sickening, because, as I said before, these same people will go into a thread and preach about how Starcraft 2 is a sport and how they want it to be big in our culture. This kind of shit should not be allowed. They should take responsibility. Simple as. They are professionals. Act like it. You would never find me preaching that Starcraft 2 should be professional or whatever. I have nothing but contempt for professional(as in with a lot of money involved) sports. And I could care less if Starcraft is big or mainstream or whatever. I like watching SC2 games and for that I do not need SC to be big or mainstream. I prefer if players play when they feel like playing not half-sleeping or even just no wanting to play just to please entitled fans. And here we have homo ireadnotus who takes phrases and interprets them contrary to everyone else in the thread (at least restricted to people you supposedly disagree with). A professional is not just about money, it's about acting appropriately. Your enjoyment comes from those acts, and the fact that Stephano doesn't play took away your enjoyment of watching sc2. And if SC2 weren't big, you couldn't watch those games. But the thing that struck me the most about your post is that your contempt also covers people like teachers, doctors and others who work all their life without a break to act as professionals. One cannot be THAT self-centered. Lol, for calling me "ireadnotus" you are not reading yourself. Did you notice how I specified professional sports specifically, so no my posts says nothing about teachers, doctors and others. I actually consider professional sports an insult to those professions, so. I even specified that I have contempt for some specific areas linked with sports professionalisation, not the whole concept of professionalism. And no Stephano's act did not take away from my enjoyment of watching sc2, I just calmly switched to other stream and I would not care to see his game when he was half-assedly playing anyway. I even disagree with you that what he did constitutes unprofessionalism. Actually what he did is considered professional behaviour in fields outside of professional sports that you mentioned. So while we are at using bad metaphors to unrelated fields, it is professional for a doctor to refuse to operate on you, if there is no danger to your life or there is substitute doctor, if he is tired because he was already working more than one shift. Good, you engaged properly this time. First of all, you couldn't switch to another stream if SC2 weren't big, which you forgot to take into account. You could not watch Stephano v Kas, so that much your enjoyment was lessened (and it's more so for all people actually looking forward to the game). And on a principled point, if everyone starts forfeiting finals, you won't have much to choose from as games aren't happening, and soon enough esports will die as no-one wants to put effort into organizing tournaments if they don't know if players actually show up. Unprofessional - this comes down to replaceability. Doctors should have substitutes when their shift ends. But they will work every second of their shift no matter what. They put their personal lives, kids, health at stake to work as many hours as possible, because they are professionals. That's the ideal. And those that don't have substitutes, which are many doctors because they are irreplaceable work even harder. Stephano in many ways is irreplaceable and it hurt the tournament and fans that he left. Leaving at that point goes against the very idea of professionalism. And now for the most important point, Stephano shouldn't be playing half-heartedly. He should schedule himself properly and work hard to bring the best games he possibly could. That's what people like Marineking, Mvp, Mma etc. do, and that's why we respect them and don't respect Stephano.
If I could not switch to another stream I would watch a VOD or do a lot of other fun things that I could be doing instead, as I noted in my other post.
Your point about everyone forfeiting finals is nonsense, the incidence of such would not be higher than it is now (read extremely low) as they actually want to win (for money, pride or both). People forfeit when they feel they cannot perform reasonably well. As for those that would do that regularly (and there is very small number of those), they would not be invited/permitted in tournaments if the tournaments felt it is in their interest to ban them, so no problem again. I see no reason to bash him for forfeiting a game once in a long while with quite a believable and trustworthy excuse (compared to others I will not name). When he starts doing it regularly just ban him and be done with it, not this nonsensical mob lynching which is happening here.
I said the metaphor was bad, but no the doctor will not work harder when tired, even if there is no replacement, if your life is not in danger (no life was in danger in Stephano case, see why it is a bad metaphor), as he should be a professional to know when to give up. That is the idea of professionalism, to conduct yourself to the best of your professional knowledge, to not deceive your clients, to not perform subpar job, but rather forfeit on the money. All of them point to forfeiting the game. But again this is bad metaphor and is not usable in entertainment industry anyway, so let's stop using other fields that are completely different as any support for any arguments.
No one was talking about playing half-heartedly as in without effort, but half-assedly as in too tired to play well enough. I respect Stephano more, actually I never watched his stream, but will have to start now to support him so he can get even more money 
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On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players.
That's not entirely correct. The stream viewers right now on Stephano's stream are the voters. And the future stream viewers he might or might not draw for an event
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On February 01 2012 01:02 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. That's not entirely correct. The stream viewers right now on Stephano's stream are the voters. And the future stream viewers he might or might not draw for an event
What? Why?
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On February 01 2012 01:03 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:02 rotegirte wrote:On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. That's not entirely correct. The stream viewers right now on Stephano's stream are the voters. And the future stream viewers he might or might not draw for an event What? Why?
Because they are the revenue.
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On February 01 2012 00:39 Jibba wrote:
Valuing effort serves no ethical purpose? That's not true. Most ethics are based on a reasonable amount of effort. If you want to argue what constitutes reasonable, then that is a gray area with a lot of discussion. If you think there is no obligation of effort at all, then that's actually against most major ethical foundations.
He wasnt rude but he did directly damage the tournament.
Not in any direct way. There are situations where valuing efforts serves ethical purpose and those were it does not. My statement was that in this particular case in my opinion it does not.
If you went by pure utilitarianism then yes, he probably did something wrong. But pure utilitarianism is not such a good idea. I think in this case him not wanting to play outweighs the really inconsequential(IMO, just to clarify) damage to the tournament that his act specifically did.
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On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players.
People talking here are the one who can speak english first. You have to realize that in France, i guess 20 to 25% of the population are able to write a post in english (i can barely do it whereas i'm an engineer who used to work for an US firm). It might be far worse in poland, ukraine, russia, who have a really big community too.
There is a reason whitera and stephano won the poll about the IPL showmatch by a large margin when their fanclubs on TL are of average size. I might be mistaken but i think there's a big community outside TL too.
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On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players.
Voting in starcraft community is not screaming the loudest (as it is not in politics) on some forum but watching the tournaments and other content. Do not flatter yourself.
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On February 01 2012 01:11 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. Voting in starcraft community is not screaming the loudest (as it is not in politics) on some forum but watching the tournaments and other content. Do not flatter yourself.
People who talk are the ones listened. If people wouldn't talk on TL half of the changes in SC2 wouldn't happen. And people who are in this thread are most likely the ones that followed ONOG.
If millenium chooses to ignore the community let them do it, but don't tell me that the community on TL doesn't represent starcraft mostly.
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I think clearly this issue is something the community is concerned about. We can't deny that can we? Look at this thread!!
What Stephano did is not routine and any tournament organizers should probably make sure their rules are completely prepared for something like this. Personally, I think players should get DQ'd. Don't commit to a tournament if you don't plan on competing. Make players get a full DQ for dropping out for any reason. That seems the fairest to me. Nobody should be entitled to 2nd place prizes if they are too lazy to play a finals match for the fans. Hopefully tournamnt rules will start to reflect this and there will be no confusion.
A simple apology would be nice. Just a simple 'sorry for having to forfeit, didn't mean to let down fans, onog and all the barcrafts. just couldn't stay awake'. Doesn't seem like a lot to ask. But yeah... 18 year old probably doesn't see the value in little things like this. He can do what he wants but I'd say most of us don't want players entering tournaments, getting to finals... asking organizers for a break, and then bailing(when thousands of people were sitting... waiting for that long).
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On February 01 2012 01:18 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:11 mcc wrote:On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. Voting in starcraft community is not screaming the loudest (as it is not in politics) on some forum but watching the tournaments and other content. Do not flatter yourself. People who talk are the ones listened. If people wouldn't talk on TL half of the changes in SC2 wouldn't happen. And people who are in this thread are most likely the ones that followed ONOG. If millenium chooses to ignore the community let them do it, but don't tell me that the community on TL doesn't represent starcraft mostly.
I've been a part of many communities and i've never ever thought that the vocal guys on forums represent the average person of the community.
I got a friend that watches GSL/MLG/IPL religiously and if i asked him what he thought about Millenium and Stephano i'm guessing he couldn't care less about all this drama. There's a reason this and the other threads with drama (Naniwa, Mill vs Complexity, TSL vs EG) are 50-100 pages filled with a few guys arguing endlessly about who's right in a matter they have little to no real knowledge about. Give it a week and no one will give a shit, just like with all the other times people went crazy.
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but don't tell me that the community on TL doesn't represent starcraft mostly.
TL is ONE of the communities in Starcraft 2... I don't think it is a majority of SC2 viewers... Especially not just the posters... I think you are overestimating a lot
People who talk are the ones listened. If people wouldn't talk on TL half of the changes in SC2 wouldn't happen.
ROFL, are you serious? If changes in SC2 were from threads in TL, we would have like 200 #1 best players in the world and all players would be overhyped AND underrated. Not to mention all the races would be the same and only have one unit because all others are overpowered. And all tournaments would have to invite every player in the world to make it 'fair'...
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On February 01 2012 01:18 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:11 mcc wrote:On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. Voting in starcraft community is not screaming the loudest (as it is not in politics) on some forum but watching the tournaments and other content. Do not flatter yourself. People who talk are the ones listened. If people wouldn't talk on TL half of the changes in SC2 wouldn't happen. And people who are in this thread are most likely the ones that followed ONOG. If millenium chooses to ignore the community let them do it, but don't tell me that the community on TL doesn't represent starcraft mostly.
Again you flatter TL too much. Yea people in this thread mostly followed ONOG, but that is one way implication. Most people who followed ONOG probably even do not know about this thread, much less participate in it. Stephano's stream numbers that are lower only compared to Idra's and some rarely streaming Korean's numbers speak for itself. These are the real votes that count
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On February 01 2012 01:30 skipdog172 wrote:
I think clearly this issue is something the community is concerned about. We can't deny that can we? Look at this thread!!
What Stephano did is not routine and any tournament organizers should probably make sure their rules are completely prepared for something like this. Personally, I think players should get DQ'd. Don't commit to a tournament if you don't plan on competing. Make players get a full DQ for dropping out for any reason. That seems the fairest to me. Nobody should be entitled to 2nd place prizes if they are too lazy to play a finals match for the fans. Hopefully tournamnt rules will start to reflect this and there will be no confusion.
A simple apology would be nice. Just a simple 'sorry for having to forfeit, didn't mean to let down fans, onog and all the barcrafts. just couldn't stay awake'. Doesn't seem like a lot to ask. But yeah... 18 year old probably doesn't see the value in little things like this. He can do what he wants but I'd say most of us don't want players entering tournaments, getting to finals... asking organizers for a break, and then bailing(when thousands of people were sitting... waiting for that long).
You understand that there are like 100 people in this thread and a lot of those do not actually thing there is anything to be concerned about. How can you make any reasonable extrapolation from that ?
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On February 01 2012 01:07 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 01:03 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 01:02 rotegirte wrote:On February 01 2012 00:57 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:51 Agathon wrote:On February 01 2012 00:25 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 01 2012 00:24 tekos44 wrote:On February 01 2012 00:19 Koorb wrote:On January 31 2012 23:47 Ghanburighan wrote:
Quote or link from Millennium? If Millennium actively supports such behaviour, there should be a community backlash against them. They are undermining the work and effort of thousands of people labouring to bring about esports as an industry, and those profiteers should be excluded for the sake of tournaments, real professionals, and fans across the globe.
It's inexcusable to harm other people for the sake of money just because no regulatory body is out there to punish them. With that attitude, if they can make more money from forfeiting a match and taking the betting winnings, they would. And that would be the end of esports.
Millenium doesn't support such behavior. They just don't care about the international community's opinion on the matter. Stephano won the SCAN Invitational #3 and they're happy with it, as long as they are concerned the forfeit in ONoG finals wasn't a big deal. Instead of "international community's opinion", i'd say "teamliquid community opinon" Teamliquid is a community and international. And a very intersting mix of esport actors, newbies like me, pro players, trolls, children, very well informed people, very bad informed people, haters, fanboys, etc... That means that all what is said on TL can be very interesting and constructive, but a part of what is said here is hardly biaised aswell. That's the reason why Millenium's manager doesn't take too much attention about dramas on TL, because the "community's opinion" is not a unique voice on TL or Reddit that tell the unique objective truth. It's just a mix of very different points of view that use to ignore the famous "silent majority". TL is not the community's voice. Not now, not ever. It's a place of "verbal" exchange, and informations gathering, and a pro team website, nothing more. I can understand that it's not important for some people. Only voting people have to be counted when electing a president. People talking here are the ones who vote in the starcraft country. The silent community doesn't matter to any statistics. So if people here make a riot you'd better calm them down cause they represent the part of the community that actually cares enough to talk about the game, the teams and the players. That's not entirely correct. The stream viewers right now on Stephano's stream are the voters. And the future stream viewers he might or might not draw for an event What? Why? Because they are the revenue.
Exactly. Viewers are the revenue of Esport. And when you have 80k viewers for an MLG for instence...i don't know how many people give their voice here on TL, but i'm 100% sure that it's far far below this number.
Even if we could find a majoritary point of view on TL (we'd need a very well done poll for that, and it's not that easy, ask polling organisation, they will tell you how hard it is), it would be a minority pov in all the community.
That's the reason why i considere, like Millenium's manager, that taking much consideration about drama thread like this one is a not a mistake, but not a "must do" either. It's a bit irrelevant.
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United States22883 Posts
If it's simply about viewers, then why not replace all foreigners in tournaments with Chinese players? Put all the foreigners out of jobs. They cost more, draw less viewers and aren't as accomodating. The Divina female tournament pulled 400,000 in China. Imagine what would happen for a major prize pool.
And if you want a homegrown option, then tournaments can just feature LoL. Dumber player drama, but less tournament drama and 3x-5x the viewers.
All about viewership, right?
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admins decided right, although it was not stefano's fault clearly since he should be pretty tired/fed up gaming. anyway just a less event for him not such a big deal...
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During this time, Stephano does not give a shit and ladder with 6k viwers :o :D
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On February 01 2012 01:41 Jibba wrote:
If it's simply about viewers, then why not replace all foreigners in tournaments with Chinese players? Put all the foreigners out of jobs. They cost more, draw less viewers and aren't as accomodating. The Divina female tournament pulled 400,000 in China. Imagine what would happen for a major prize pool.
And if you want a homegrown option, then tournaments can just feature LoL. Dumber player drama, but less tournament drama and 3x-5x the viewers.
All about viewership, right?
it's about markets also
Millenium's sponsors focus on the french market, so they dont care about chinese viewership. But they do care about LoL, you're right
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EPT
