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On January 31 2012 11:03 colate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 10:35 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 10:20 Belial88 wrote:On January 31 2012 10:16 poor newb wrote:
stephano cannot be at two places at once, the organizers should be working together to make sure their times dont overlap yea, stupid idiot organizers. We should teach them a lesson about trying to give us content, fucking assholes. While we're at it, I think MLG are asshats too, they totally screwed up the streams more than once. yeah because organizers would actually look pretty stupid without players to participate in. or draw any significant audience for that matter. why get all worked up when the lesson learned is that scheduling and forfeiting (as separate issues) have shown themselves as significant enough to maybe include them in future tournament regulations. having some sort of guideline would possibly benefit organizers, players and viewers. t his time stephano took home the cake by forfeiting a spotlight final. would it have been an issue with a 100$ weekly cup? or a 250$, 500$, 1000$? who will exactly draw a line, and where? is round of 32 still "ok" and round of 16 not? will you decide for everyone? or are we fine with a wild west of different tournaments winging the decision? or do we apply a zero-tolerance rule? the nature and extent of such rules could and should be open to discussion. Bolded the part I want to elaborate/discuss futher. I think we all agree that forfeiting (given there are not any uncontrollable circumstances that's out of the players position to do anything about) is unacceptable in any kind of tournament and stage of the tournament. But players of Stephano's caliber and the size of the tournament (in terms of prize pool, player pool and reputation) will always, and should, influence what's debated. By discussing issues like this will bring forth some sort of consensus in the community and by tournament organizers. This incident is pretty unique, although it shouldn't be treated as if it is some kind of vacuum, since they posponed Stephano's match against VileIllusion - where most tournaments DQ the players and this incident wouldn't occur. I got the feeling that most of the major tournaments have implemented alot of the same rules - so their decision will generally be the same. But I think it's noteworthy to discuss this issue regarding smaller tournaments. I think they make decisions that benefits their organization the most - their viewership. Most of these tournaments don't have the same safety net, in terms of viewership and money, as the major ones with sponsors behind their back.
Yes but where do you draw the line? Like look at IPL3 for example. Idra flew in from China the day before and he was so incredibly tired and he said, I'll play the first game of the group but if I play like shit im going to forfeit and go to bed earlier to have better games tomorrow. In this example where Idra forfeited, IPL was able to show other games with people that were going to show good games in the place of the IdrA games and then IdrA can show better games the rest of the tournament which he did. Its a really interesting discussion on drawing the line.
In the IdrA case, he wasn't going to show good games therefore it might have been better so they could show good games cause ultimately thats what the fans care about, they dont want to see shitty games.
In the Stephano case he opted out of the final which would be the only game shown.
Its a tricky situation but I dont think IdrA or Stephano are wrong in this case.
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On January 31 2012 10:08 AmstAff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:57 HaRxTears wrote:On January 31 2012 09:32 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! need to make sure all the tournament organizers know so that they won't invite him to future, invite-only tournaments. thanks tl.net for making this happen!! Tournament organizers will still invite him regardless what happened here. They will take into consideration that this happened but they will definitely still invite him. Stephano is just that much better than most people outside Korea,,,he attracts Viewers just like Dimaga, Idra, White-ra, Kas or Huk. ONOG had 12k+ Viewers if Stephano and Kas weren't there it would be like 6k viewers maybe tops and if MrBitter wasnt there the viewer count would decrease with maybe 1 more K. Stephano was wrong but in a way he was also right same goes for the organizers decision. Now lets talk about the real disappointment called Tyler he just Rage quit the tournament because he got owned in the first series.... So because people are good, they can do whatever they want? Well, then you won't have big tours with price-money in the future. Imagine football and every time 1 or 2 clubs decide to just leave during a tournament or a season. Bicycle racing was at some point big too and then all the doping shit happened and now it's kinda dead. Acting like an idiot (IdrA) is ok, because some sponsors like to sponsor a "bad boy" it's some kind of image but screwing a whole tournament is just stupid and no sponsor wants to see his players doing that. Every sponsor will decide 2 times before sponsoring a sc2 tournament when he has to fear that childish players will screw things up. Maybe they will use the money for some google ads and be on the save side.
Did I say that he could do whatever he wants? I DID NOTTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOTOT. I said he was wrong but from a different perspective he is also right with his excuse. People will give their opinion be it for him or against him. I responded to the guy that said he will never get into invite-only tournaments and thanked TL for it, which is wrong. He will still get invited too Invite-Only tournaments because yes he does attract viewers for being a great player. Also this tournament was pretty much a Special case where it was held for barcrafts in the US at night time. If this wasn't the case Stephano could maybe play the day after. ONOG had to make a decision when Stephano logged off and they made the decision to let the actual 3rd spot winner to play against Kas for first or second. If i was the organizer and be in their spot i would have done the same, but if those barcrafts were taken out of the equation than i think the organisers were wrong tho in the decision because he still got at least second place regardless of his action after.
Yes i responded to you and ranted some more. People are gonna rage and defend Stephano for a few more days and after that they wont give a fuck.
And since TeamLiquid.net is all about news, community and Team are we also getting a official press releases about Tylers rage quit? People are gonna say it's not on the same Level but it at least deserves some kind of explanation since he disappoints again. I was like oh tyler ragequit? Fucking expected. I want to cheer for him but he just disappoints.
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I really think that ONOG did the right thing in this situation. It is really difficult to organize events because something always seems to go wrong. But besides that fact when player agree to play in a tournament they should think of the fans and spectators I know a lot of people just want to watch some exciting Starcraft Matches...
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On January 31 2012 11:07 NoCatsCradle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 10:56 Zandar wrote:On January 31 2012 08:04 Dodgin wrote:On January 31 2012 08:01 hippotato wrote:
Think how you would react if this was Boxer/MMA/MVP/HuK/NesTea/WhiteRa/etc. Everyone would have moved on by now. Now go back to thinking if this was Stephano/Destiny/INcontrol/Moletrap.
Bias If any of those players did this there would be an equal or bigger shitstorm. Can you imagine what the koreans would say if MMA forfeited the finals at IEM Kiev because he was tired? The funny thing is that Koreans would really dislike MMA for doing that, but what really strikes me is that most of the French posting here are defending Stephano or saying this is not thread/news worthy. I can't understand that, just because he has your nationality you have to always agree with everything he does and always defend him not matter what? I mean if Grubby or Ret would forfeit a finals like this I would be really pissed at them. There was a lot of French bashing that went on because of Stephano's FF. It's as if Grubby or Ret forfeited a finals and everyone started calling Dutch people pussies for being overrun by the Nazi's during WW2. Seriously Dutch people? You only lasted 5 days? Also: Dutch inquiry says Iraq war had no mandateI guess it's time to call them "Freedom Ovens." If you don't find this funny you need to find a sense of humor, you Dutch surrender monkeys.
Seriously I don't care about that at all lol.
It's not like you attack me personally when you make fun of my country (I do it myself all the time) or players from my country but I guess for some people it does feel that way.
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On January 31 2012 10:11 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 09:57 HaRxTears wrote:On January 31 2012 09:32 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 31 2012 09:27 dsousa wrote:On January 31 2012 09:24 lee365 wrote:
Meh If Korean players can stay up till early in the morning to play all their games in foreign tournaments than Stephano should be able to as well. because if he doesn't.... IT WILL BE TOP NEWS ON TL! This link in the top left hand side, will probably be there for 3 days. Its that big a deal! Its up there with MLG dates, MLG player lists, guy joining new teams..... Stephano's tired and can't play..... alert the media! Release the hounds! need to make sure all the tournament organizers know so that they won't invite him to future, invite-only tournaments. thanks tl.net for making this happen!! Tournament organizers will still invite him regardless what happened here. They will take into consideration that this happened but they will definitely still invite him. Stephano is just that much better than most people outside Korea,,,he attracts Viewers just like Dimaga, Idra, White-ra, Kas or Huk. ONOG had 12k+ Viewers if Stephano and Kas weren't there it would be like 6k viewers maybe tops and if MrBitter wasnt there the viewer count would decrease with maybe 1 more K. Stephano was wrong but in a way he was also right same goes for the organizers decision. Now lets talk about the real disappointment called Tyler he just Rage quit the tournament because he got owned in the first series.... yeah, they will keep inviting him.... but here is hoping that tournaments will eventually enforce some form of professionalism on its participants.... what basis do you have to make the tyler comment?
Since everyone is jumping on a bandwagon i will do the same!
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On January 31 2012 11:07 NoCatsCradle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 10:56 Zandar wrote:On January 31 2012 08:04 Dodgin wrote:On January 31 2012 08:01 hippotato wrote:
Think how you would react if this was Boxer/MMA/MVP/HuK/NesTea/WhiteRa/etc. Everyone would have moved on by now. Now go back to thinking if this was Stephano/Destiny/INcontrol/Moletrap.
Bias If any of those players did this there would be an equal or bigger shitstorm. Can you imagine what the koreans would say if MMA forfeited the finals at IEM Kiev because he was tired? The funny thing is that Koreans would really dislike MMA for doing that, but what really strikes me is that most of the French posting here are defending Stephano or saying this is not thread/news worthy. I can't understand that, just because he has your nationality you have to always agree with everything he does and always defend him not matter what? I mean if Grubby or Ret would forfeit a finals like this I would be really pissed at them. There was a lot of French bashing that went on because of Stephano's FF. It's as if Grubby or Ret forfeited a finals and everyone started calling Dutch people pussies for being overrun by the Nazi's during WW2. Seriously Dutch people? You only lasted 5 days? Also: Dutch inquiry says Iraq war had no mandateI guess it's time to call them "Freedom Ovens." If you don't find this funny you need to find a sense of humor, you Dutch surrender monkeys.
I thought this was pretty funny.
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Really not surprised. This year needs to end so he can get on with things that he feels are important rather than tarnishing a new leagues product. It is quite worrying that players cannot act professionally for a few days at a time.
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On January 31 2012 11:13 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 11:07 NoCatsCradle wrote:On January 31 2012 10:56 Zandar wrote:On January 31 2012 08:04 Dodgin wrote:On January 31 2012 08:01 hippotato wrote:
Think how you would react if this was Boxer/MMA/MVP/HuK/NesTea/WhiteRa/etc. Everyone would have moved on by now. Now go back to thinking if this was Stephano/Destiny/INcontrol/Moletrap.
Bias If any of those players did this there would be an equal or bigger shitstorm. Can you imagine what the koreans would say if MMA forfeited the finals at IEM Kiev because he was tired? The funny thing is that Koreans would really dislike MMA for doing that, but what really strikes me is that most of the French posting here are defending Stephano or saying this is not thread/news worthy. I can't understand that, just because he has your nationality you have to always agree with everything he does and always defend him not matter what? I mean if Grubby or Ret would forfeit a finals like this I would be really pissed at them. There was a lot of French bashing that went on because of Stephano's FF. It's as if Grubby or Ret forfeited a finals and everyone started calling Dutch people pussies for being overrun by the Nazi's during WW2. Seriously Dutch people? You only lasted 5 days? Also: Dutch inquiry says Iraq war had no mandateI guess it's time to call them "Freedom Ovens." If you don't find this funny you need to find a sense of humor, you Dutch surrender monkeys. Seriously I don't care about that at all lol. It's not like you attack me personally when you make fun of my country (I do it myself all the time) or players from my country but I guess for some people it does feel that way.
Yeah but to be fair, non-Muslim Dutch people are pretty spineless, so you might actually not be capable of taking offense to anything.
(please make this disclaimer unnecessary)
User was warned for this post
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Drama aside, this issue highlights the question of players and tournaments accommodating each other. I say both sides are wrong. There clearly was a lack of communication of the boundaries and responsibilities between the parties involved.
Asking a professional to perform at 2 am of his time is unreasonable. However, said player should also communicate his timeline/schedule and let the tournament know ahead of time.
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It's Stephano's right to forfeit a tournament, regardless of his current standing in it. As a personal note, I do think it's insanely unprofessional to do so at the level he was at, as it was when IdrA did it to Nerchio, Polt in the recent Zotac, etc. Even if I disagree with it, it's his right to do so.
That said, I also feel it's the tournament prerogative to alter it's setup should such occurances happen. A tournament that was made possible by barcrafts, being watched and giving back to barcrafts, it would be a very lame situation to essentially just call game over for all the people trying to encourage this growing community. It's ridiculous that people expect that tournaments have to stick to rules hard and fast; they can't have a written rule for every single random occurance that could potentially happen. A hypothetical example would be MLG: do you think they would really follow through with the "late for match = walkover" rule if it was the finals of a tournament. No, they're going to ignore that. Tournaments aren't only held for the players, they are also held for the organizers themselves and for the viewers.
And just to chime in on Tyler since I feel it warrants mention alongside this as well, my personal opinion is that forfeiting matches for reasons that aren't essentially emergencies is unprofessional regardless. However, as has been said, he did it at a level in the tournament where he didn't completely screw over the structure of the tournament. As far I understand (could be wrong though), not even every match was being streamed at time, which adds to the reduced impact. Essentially I feel Tyler was unprofessional, but not in a way that I feel warrants ragging on him about it. (I also feel the Naniwa incident is of the same degree.)
TLDR: Forfeiting is unprofessional (if done without some sort of emergency at hand). The degree varies on how badly that forfeit screws up the structure of the tournament. Tournaments should reserve the right to alter tournaments if one player screws over a tournament to be able to still put on a good show for the viewers.
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As the player, you owe it to the tournament and everyone watching to play and do the best you can; even if you best is kinda shit compared to how you could play after some rest.
Forfeiting is childish and unacceptable. Stephano embarrassed not only himself, but the tournament and everyone associated. He's lucky ONOG gave him 4th. He should have been disqualified and fined. Obviously a fine wouldn't be possible since there was no legal agreement that he had to finish, but that should be instituted for future events.
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On January 31 2012 11:30 Mr Showtime wrote:
As the player, you owe it to the tournament and everyone watching to play and do the best you can; even if you best is kinda shit compared to how you could play after some rest.
Forfeiting is childish and unacceptable. Stephano embarrassed not only himself, but the tournament and everyone associated. He's lucky ONOG gave him 4th. He should have been disqualified and fined. Obviously a fine wouldn't be possible since there was no legal agreement that he had to finish, but that should be instituted for future events.
Stephano should be fined because I don't like his attitude.
It's a good thing there exists the iron-clad legal framework in making this possible.
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On January 31 2012 09:20 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
Stephano forfeited tournament because it was THREE AM and he went to sleep he should say sorry for not being able to play 24/7 I guess. Was it okay to play 2 tournaments same time and forfeit one of them in finals? no. Was it fine to get penalty to be moved to 4th place? yes. Was it stupid for something like this to happen in first place? of course.
Leave it at that and stop causing more drama over nothing, he got his "punishment" and thats enough, making this into big "Community news" is a joke. Instead of making meaningless posts like this you could do something productive and make post about Kas winning the tournament or make ANY post about ANYTHING that is positive and that isnt pointless and that doesnt cause more drama over...nothing.
Making this story of the day or highlight of the day however you wanna call it is overdoing it, thread alone would be fine.
Guys read this post for three times, then may be you understand...
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players and event organizers will obviously argue for themselves. as a pure fan, I think that if the event had no rules about such situations at the time then Stephano deserves to claim his 2nd place winnings. What is the purpose (for a fan) of watching a pro player compete when he's physically/mentally tired?
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If this is BW, I am pretty sure Kespa would throw down some sort of punishment, maybe fine or suspension.
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On January 31 2012 11:08 soulist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 11:03 colate wrote:On January 31 2012 10:35 rotegirte wrote:On January 31 2012 10:20 Belial88 wrote:On January 31 2012 10:16 poor newb wrote:
stephano cannot be at two places at once, the organizers should be working together to make sure their times dont overlap yea, stupid idiot organizers. We should teach them a lesson about trying to give us content, fucking assholes. While we're at it, I think MLG are asshats too, they totally screwed up the streams more than once. yeah because organizers would actually look pretty stupid without players to participate in. or draw any significant audience for that matter. why get all worked up when the lesson learned is that scheduling and forfeiting (as separate issues) have shown themselves as significant enough to maybe include them in future tournament regulations. having some sort of guideline would possibly benefit organizers, players and viewers. t his time stephano took home the cake by forfeiting a spotlight final. would it have been an issue with a 100$ weekly cup? or a 250$, 500$, 1000$? who will exactly draw a line, and where? is round of 32 still "ok" and round of 16 not? will you decide for everyone? or are we fine with a wild west of different tournaments winging the decision? or do we apply a zero-tolerance rule? the nature and extent of such rules could and should be open to discussion. Bolded the part I want to elaborate/discuss futher. I think we all agree that forfeiting (given there are not any uncontrollable circumstances that's out of the players position to do anything about) is unacceptable in any kind of tournament and stage of the tournament. But players of Stephano's caliber and the size of the tournament (in terms of prize pool, player pool and reputation) will always, and should, influence what's debated. By discussing issues like this will bring forth some sort of consensus in the community and by tournament organizers. This incident is pretty unique, although it shouldn't be treated as if it is some kind of vacuum, since they posponed Stephano's match against VileIllusion - where most tournaments DQ the players and this incident wouldn't occur. I got the feeling that most of the major tournaments have implemented alot of the same rules - so their decision will generally be the same. But I think it's noteworthy to discuss this issue regarding smaller tournaments. I think they make decisions that benefits their organization the most - their viewership. Most of these tournaments don't have the same safety net, in terms of viewership and money, as the major ones with sponsors behind their back. Yes but where do you draw the line? Like look at IPL3 for example. Idra flew in from China the day before and he was so incredibly tired and he said, I'll play the first game of the group but if I play like shit im going to forfeit and go to bed earlier to have better games tomorrow. In this example where Idra forfeited, IPL was able to show other games with people that were going to show good games in the place of the IdrA games and then IdrA can show better games the rest of the tournament which he did. Its a really interesting discussion on drawing the line. In the IdrA case, he wasn't going to show good games therefore it might have been better so they could show good games cause ultimately thats what the fans care about, they dont want to see shitty games. In the Stephano case he opted out of the final which would be the only game shown. Its a tricky situation but I dont think IdrA or Stephano are wrong in this case.
Up until now I didn't know about IdrA at IPL. Based on what you wrote I think it's possible to draw some parallells between Stephano/ONOG and IdrA/IPL. Both are willing to forfeit if the circumstances won't allow them to win and both tournaments are willing to tailor the tournament to suit their high profile players the most. They do this because they need the viewership. However I think that tournaments should not edit the schedule because a player isn't in their comfort zone. Players and teams need to carry the consequences for their scheduale. If IdrA went to IEM in China and then to IPL, then he will suffer from exhaustion. Same with Stephano. He should suffer the consequences (if they occur) for playing in two separate tournaments at the same time, and he did. Tournament organizers are afraid to put their feet to the ground and say no because they don't benefit as much from it. I don't know where we should draw the line. The line should be the tournaments rules and schedule. Players know what they should expect, and the tournament admins should meet the expecations themself have paved. Both IdrA and Stephano should suffer for their inability to schedule perfectly. Yes I know IdrA and EG want him to participate in as many tournaments as possible. But it isn't the tournament who should fix their bumpy road - which they made for themself.
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The guy had two tournaments, and he played through and won the SCAN. The guy was tired and beat Grubby 3-0. Cut Stephano a break, he's still a great player and the guy knows his limits, pretty sure he knows them well enough to tell the crowd when his play will be good and when it will be awful.
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On January 31 2012 11:18 NoCatsCradle wrote:
Dutch people are pretty spineless
No need for spines, we have a queen
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On January 31 2012 11:46 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 11:18 NoCatsCradle wrote:
Dutch people are pretty spineless
No need for spines, we have a queen
*throws tomato*
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On January 31 2012 11:46 Zandar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2012 11:18 NoCatsCradle wrote:
Dutch people are pretty spineless
No need for spines, we have a queen
That is awesome. *claps*
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EPT
