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On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
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If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
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hmm its weird but am i the only one who wants to see current sc2 pro compete with bw pros that are switching over? can't kespa just fuse with gom? wouldnt that be sad to see 2 separate leagues that do not comepte with each other?
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On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
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On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing. I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick. Yeah, no lan sucks. Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
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On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I disagree with your analysis about Valve's "awesome new model" for esports.
First, anyone that has experience with Counter-Strike can tell you that Valve is historically extremely out of touch with the esports scene. They had a huge opportunity that with CS 1.6 and they totally dropped the ball.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
The true sustainable business model for esports is what we're seeing with SC2 and other games that are featured in tournaments like MLG and GSL that can sustain a business through advertising, sponsors and attracting large viewership numbers, not through marketing gimmicks that seem to blind people with high prize dollars.
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Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.
Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
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On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing. I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick. Yeah, no lan sucks. Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it). 1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen. 2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it. EDIT: Show nested quote +
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".
You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
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On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote:
Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.
Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
TF2 is a blast, but I don't like my eSports built around a hat based economy.
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Hey I just wanted to share:
https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1
League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.
And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
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On January 25 2012 14:10 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing. I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick. Yeah, no lan sucks. Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it). 1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen. 2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it. EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television. If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in". You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.
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On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:Hey I just wanted to share: https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10. Show nested quote +Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games. I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know. And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
The PC bangs ratings are pretty impressing. Never imagined LoL making that big of a splash in Korea.
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51705 Posts
On January 25 2012 14:16 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 14:10 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing. I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick. Yeah, no lan sucks. Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it). 1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen. 2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it. EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television. If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in". You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical. The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.
most of the staff at blizzard korea jumped ship to riot's korean division.
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On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:Hey I just wanted to share: https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10. Show nested quote +Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games. I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know. And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
Maplestory is above Starcraft 2?
Wow I never thought things were that bad for SC2 in Korea.
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On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:Hey I just wanted to share: https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10. Show nested quote +Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games. I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know. And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
LoL is becoming really popular here in Korea right now, and OGN is right to invest into it when the opportunity is there. However, I'm not sure if the game can grow itself into a legit e-sports genre. It's all just wait and see deal with LoL. There are a lot of people playing it, but the question is if the game can sustain the interest of the market in the long term. One thing BW had going was that the game was actually easy to understand for those who do not know the game fully. It was a spectator's sport, not a gamer's sport, and that's really what fueled the BW's popularity. This is the same with SC2 - people don't necessarily have to play the game to understand who's winning or losing.
Another thing I want to mention is that e-sports in Korea is not just about SC2 or BW. The direction KeSPA is taking is not to promote one or two games, but instead to develop an umbrella of competitive gaming culture. This is the right way to do it because if SC2 or LoL doesn't work out in Korea, it doesn't necessarily mean the e-sports also has to die.
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On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing. I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick. Yeah, no lan sucks. Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it). 1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen. 2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it. EDIT: Show nested quote +
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
On an related note, wasn't the blizzard Korea's boss of the time fired for this? Or what?
Edit nvm read your other post.
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Mr. Chae> No, we won't stop them from participating. We can't. Haven't you forgotten about the "classic" incident? (note: not sure what he's referring to here)
GOMTV Classic had Kespa proteams in it, then Kespa ordered them all to leave, since it is partially Kespa's effort that the proteams exist in the way they were, meaning that the progamers are intellectual property of Kespa and therefore they can stop them from participating in other leagues (since Kespa wouldn't make money the same way if they played for something else instead of for Kespa events)
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On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
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On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
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On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote:
Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.
Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
Blizzard patched diablo2 some weeks ago.
Post Release support isn't really one of blizzard's weak points either.
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