• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:40
CEST 02:40
KST 09:40
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy18ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book20
Community News
$5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy2GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding3Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win0[BSL22] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (March 23-29): herO takes triple6
StarCraft 2
General
Quebec Clan still alive ? BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (May 30-Apr 5): herO, Clem, SHIN win Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info
Tourneys
GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 520 Moving Fees Mutation # 519 Inner Power Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion so ive been playing broodwar for a week straight. BW General Discussion Gypsy to Korea Pros React To: JaeDong vs Queen
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group F [BSL22] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Muta micro map competition What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game Nintendo Switch Thread Darkest Dungeon
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The China Politics Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT] Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
[G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Loot Boxes—Emotions, And Why…
TrAiDoS
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Electronics
mantequilla
Any Web Designers Out there?…
sob3k
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2301 users

This is GSL - TiG Article (BW Pros are coming) - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 Next All
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
January 25 2012 02:58 GMT
#321
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.

However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.

Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.

In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.

To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.

I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.

I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.

Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.


I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
sour_eraser
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada932 Posts
January 25 2012 03:06 GMT
#322
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
"What's the f*cking point of censoring a letter if everyone and their mother knows what it stands for.... F*cking morons"
crazyweasel
Profile Joined March 2011
607 Posts
January 25 2012 03:44 GMT
#323
hmm its weird but am i the only one who wants to see current sc2 pro compete with bw pros that are switching over? can't kespa just fuse with gom? wouldnt that be sad to see 2 separate leagues that do not comepte with each other?
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
January 25 2012 03:52 GMT
#324
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3047 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 03:59:50
January 25 2012 03:57 GMT
#325
On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).

1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.

2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.

EDIT:

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).


Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
ppp
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
January 25 2012 04:12 GMT
#326
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.

However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.

Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.

In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.

To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.

I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.

I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.

Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.


I disagree with your analysis about Valve's "awesome new model" for esports.

First, anyone that has experience with Counter-Strike can tell you that Valve is historically extremely out of touch with the esports scene. They had a huge opportunity that with CS 1.6 and they totally dropped the ball.

Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.

The true sustainable business model for esports is what we're seeing with SC2 and other games that are featured in tournaments like MLG and GSL that can sustain a business through advertising, sponsors and attracting large viewership numbers, not through marketing gimmicks that seem to blind people with high prize dollars.
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 04:26:40
January 25 2012 04:19 GMT
#327
Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.

Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
January 25 2012 05:10 GMT
#328
On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).

1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.

2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.

EDIT:
Show nested quote +

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).


Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.


If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".

You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
January 25 2012 05:12 GMT
#329
On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote:
Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.

Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in


TF2 is a blast, but I don't like my eSports built around a hat based economy.
coolcor
Profile Joined February 2011
520 Posts
January 25 2012 05:13 GMT
#330
Hey I just wanted to share:

https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1

League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.


Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.


I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.

And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.

supernovamaniac
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States3047 Posts
January 25 2012 05:16 GMT
#331
On January 25 2012 14:10 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).

1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.

2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.

EDIT:

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).


Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.


If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".

You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.


The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.
ppp
mtn
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
729 Posts
January 25 2012 05:17 GMT
#332
On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:
Hey I just wanted to share:

https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1

League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.


Show nested quote +
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.


I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.

And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.



The PC bangs ratings are pretty impressing. Never imagined LoL making that big of a splash in Korea.
GTR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
51576 Posts
January 25 2012 05:21 GMT
#333
On January 25 2012 14:16 supernovamaniac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 14:10 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).

1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.

2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.

EDIT:

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).


Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.


If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".

You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.


The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.


most of the staff at blizzard korea jumped ship to riot's korean division.
Commentator
RavenLoud
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada1100 Posts
January 25 2012 05:33 GMT
#334
On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:
Hey I just wanted to share:

https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1

League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.


Show nested quote +
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.


I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.

And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.


Maplestory is above Starcraft 2?

Wow I never thought things were that bad for SC2 in Korea.
jellyjello
Profile Joined March 2011
Korea (South)664 Posts
January 25 2012 06:16 GMT
#335
On January 25 2012 14:13 coolcor wrote:
Hey I just wanted to share:

https://twitter.com/#!/stevemz/status/161938536810037249/photo/1

League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.


Show nested quote +
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.


I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.

And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.



LoL is becoming really popular here in Korea right now, and OGN is right to invest into it when the opportunity is there. However, I'm not sure if the game can grow itself into a legit e-sports genre. It's all just wait and see deal with LoL. There are a lot of people playing it, but the question is if the game can sustain the interest of the market in the long term. One thing BW had going was that the game was actually easy to understand for those who do not know the game fully. It was a spectator's sport, not a gamer's sport, and that's really what fueled the BW's popularity. This is the same with SC2 - people don't necessarily have to play the game to understand who's winning or losing.

Another thing I want to mention is that e-sports in Korea is not just about SC2 or BW. The direction KeSPA is taking is not to promote one or two games, but instead to develop an umbrella of competitive gaming culture. This is the right way to do it because if SC2 or LoL doesn't work out in Korea, it doesn't necessarily mean the e-sports also has to die.
PlosionCornu
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy814 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 06:27:53
January 25 2012 06:26 GMT
#336
On January 25 2012 12:57 supernovamaniac wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote:
If you mean in Korea,
- Illegal advertising
- Kespa vs Blizzard
- No lan
- Trying to shove sc2 down the throat


I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.

I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.

Yeah, no lan sucks.

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).

1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.

2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.

EDIT:
Show nested quote +

Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).


Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.


On an related note, wasn't the blizzard Korea's boss of the time fired for this? Or what?

Edit nvm read your other post.

Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10366 Posts
January 25 2012 06:35 GMT
#337
Mr. Chae> No, we won't stop them from participating. We can't. Haven't you forgotten about the "classic" incident? (note: not sure what he's referring to here)


GOMTV Classic had Kespa proteams in it, then Kespa ordered them all to leave, since it is partially Kespa's effort that the proteams exist in the way they were, meaning that the progamers are intellectual property of Kespa and therefore they can stop them from participating in other leagues (since Kespa wouldn't make money the same way if they played for something else instead of for Kespa events)
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
boxturtle
Profile Joined December 2011
United States224 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-25 06:55:55
January 25 2012 06:52 GMT
#338
On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.

However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.

Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.

In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.

To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.

I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.

I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.

Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.


I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?


It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa


1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.

I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.

Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.

Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).

Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.

Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.

I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.




2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.

Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.

Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.

If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Torpedo.Vegas
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1890 Posts
January 25 2012 07:31 GMT
#339
On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.

However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.

Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.

In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.

To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.

I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.

I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.

Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.


I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?


It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa


1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.

I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.

Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.

Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).

Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.

Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.

I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.




2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.

Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.

Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.

If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.


Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.

From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.

Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.

I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
PlosionCornu
Profile Joined August 2010
Italy814 Posts
January 25 2012 07:35 GMT
#340
On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote:
Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.

Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in


Blizzard patched diablo2 some weeks ago.

Post Release support isn't really one of blizzard's weak points either.
Prev 1 15 16 17 18 19 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
20:15
Best Games of SC
Rogue vs TriGGeR
Maru vs MaxPax
Rogue vs herO
Clem vs herO
Rogue vs Maru
PiGStarcraft496
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft496
RuFF_SC2 95
PattyMac 15
StarCraft: Brood War
NaDa 14
Dota 2
canceldota285
capcasts219
Counter-Strike
taco 443
C9.Mang0302
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox472
Other Games
gofns23608
summit1g13484
Maynarde99
ViBE93
PPMD27
ROOTCatZ11
Mew2King10
minikerr3
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick845
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 49
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 44
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV894
League of Legends
• Doublelift4186
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
9h 20m
WardiTV Team League
10h 20m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
14h 20m
IPSL
15h 20m
Hawk vs TBD
StRyKeR vs TBD
BSL
18h 20m
n0maD vs perroflaco
TerrOr vs ZZZero
MadiNho vs WolFix
DragOn vs LancerX
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 9h
WardiTV Team League
1d 10h
OSC
1d 12h
BSL
1d 18h
Sterling vs Azhi_Dahaki
Napoleon vs Mazur
Jimin vs Nesh
spx vs Strudel
IPSL
1d 18h
Artosis vs TBD
Napoleon vs TBD
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs YSC
Sharp vs sSak
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Snow vs PianO
hero vs Rain
GSL
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Escore
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W2
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W3
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
RSL Revival: Season 5
WardiTV TLMC #16
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.