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On January 25 2012 16:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half. From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse. Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation. I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra)
Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
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On January 25 2012 16:40 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 16:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half. From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse. Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation. I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell. Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra) Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
Kespa was assigned by the Korean government... it manages esports in Korea. It's a subsidiary to the Ministry of Culture. In brief that's how it was formed, not by BW or sponsors. They may have influenced its creation, but idk if much else besides that.
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When I was reading the article... I didn't like TIG implying the need of an association for korean teams. As far as manners, professionalism, conduct, I don't think an Association is needed to enforce that kind of stuff. Like mr.chae said, its gom's responsibility if they want higher quality games. And player transfers is up to the team...
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On January 25 2012 16:40 jidolboy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 16:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half. From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse. Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation. I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell. Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra) Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
I definitely understand their actions during BW. But I am saying had that sort of self-interest transferred over unimpeded to SC2, odds are the scene would still be as strongly divided as in BW, regardless of foreign development. On one had, KeSPA organized and protected players in BW that were in a viritual global vacuum skill wise and opportunity wise, but SC2 thats not the case.
KeSPA is perhaps good for the Korean eSports scene, but is in a very odd position for a truly global eSport. While not the same thing, attitude wise looking at an MLG or IEM, esport organizations that are border less and try to encourage global growth and participation, KeSPA appears very insulating in a bad way. At least from the outside in perspective.
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On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa.
SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
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The more I think about it, and the more I read, the more I think the SC2 scene is better off without Kespa trying to take control of the SC2 scene in Korea.
Do we really want the Korean SC2 players put in a situation where there participation in foreign events be restricted by a governing body? Or, restricted to only being able to play against other Kespa signed players?
I agree to a certain extent that there needs to be some protections in place for both the players and the teams, but I'm not sure the model that worked for BW in Korea will work for SC2 in Korea.
I actually love the way that GOM has been developing lately, and how they have taken on the feedback they've been given and grown and changed the GSL. This season is shaping up to be the best so far, with so many good games already. And the players seem to be coming out of their shells and we are seeing some real personality (recent group selections, Homestory Cup, IEM Kiev). Would we be seeing that in a Kespa controlled Korean SC2 scene?
I'd hate to see a big shake up where the Korean SC2 scene is divided and players had to choose between Kespa association or GOM. I'd far rather see transitioning BW pro's come in via GOM intially, and if/when a second league (e.g., OGN) starts up that it's open to all.
But will Kespa be happy having their players playing with/against non-Kespa players? I only know about Kespa from what I've read on TL, and from that have an impression of an organisation that keeps tight control over it's players, and playing conditions. How would that work on the global SC2 stage?
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On January 25 2012 17:24 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa. SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
Blizz was not always as big as it is today, at least as a relative financial and developer juggernaut. I think it is a mistake to ignore the financial success WoW gave them as well as serving as an example of a global game.
I think SC2 shows how much they were always aware of SC and Korea, even though results today are not what they or anyone wanted I don't think. Wasn't the game announced in Korea? KeSPA once made an analogy saying how BW was akin to a soccer ball, and soccer leagues don't have to pay royalties or enter any contracts with the ball makers. Blizzard (and probably a sizable majority of major software developers) do not like that kind of notion for one reason or another. In Blizzard's case, they probably saw an organization obtaining significant profits by using and displaying the software they developed and were of the mind they ought to at least be credited (monetarily preferably) for developing the foundation of this enterprise.
Using the soccer ball analogy, Blizzard saw an organization not just passively using this software, but highlighting and displaying it as a central focus of their business model.
In soccer, the ball serves as a relative point of importance for the viewer, but its the actions of the players on the field in relation to the ball. Through a Blizzard lens, its the ball that is always what is being focused on and the players play just the supportive role in the balls importance.
In my opinion, its just another example of how society as whole as never really grappled with the concepts of digital content and how to approach it universally. Both perspectives are valid in a sense, but the intangible nature of the product makes dealing with the conflicts a pain in the ass.
/wall of text-o-la.
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On January 25 2012 18:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:
KeSPA once made an analogy saying how BW was akin to a soccer ball, and soccer leagues don't have to pay royalties or enter any contracts with the ball makers.
From reading that, I think Kespa got that analogy way wrong, and I can see why Blizzard would not like that view at all.
A better analogy is that Blizzard created soccer, they came up with the concept, how to play it and they adjusted it over time to make it the best version of soccer they could. Kespa provides a new set of venues (i.e., maps) and players, and organises tournaments, but at the end of the day, they are still playing soccer, which was created and owned by Blizzard.
I see Blizzard getting a lot of hate in this thread, but for me I think they've done a great job in supporting SC2. Up until the last year (with the rise of the Moba), PC esports have been in decline with no major developer supporting esports. When I saw how Blizzard were working with and supporting the community in SC2, I breathed a sigh of relief that PC esports did have a chance, and in that time the SC2 scene has globally flourished.
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I don't really think Dota2 will be that big in Esport. 1m tournaments didn't really prove anything. SC2 has like 5 times more tournaments than LoL in 2011. I have SC2 tournaments to watch every week. Valve and Riot are fighting each other with their huge prize money. If I remember right LoL tournaments are all paid by Riot and I don't really think Valve has what it takes to make Esport game after I played CS:S except they have money. SC2 may not be as big as BW in Korea but it's a huge success in other places in the world.
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^ There's so many Dota2 tournaments now that you have 5-6 games casted daily. The number of people watching the livestreams has tripled since last year. Granted, prizemoney is quite low, around 10k per tournament, but still quite good for a game in a beta stage. The number of teams competing is insane compared to last year, there's just so many teams popping out of nowhere. I'm in the beta and I can tell you Valve is doing exceptionally well of listening to the community. All the dota pro's do nothing but praise Valve and IceFrog, heck even people who quite dota1 some years ago have returned to compete in dota2.. And I think that's quite smart, because involving the dota1 pros in the beta ensures that they will keep on playing (CS Source anyone?) which will also ensure that tier fans will keep playing the game. So I'd say Valve's way of going about it is pretty slick and smart.
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On January 24 2012 02:12 zdfgucker wrote:
I would LOVE to see A teamers from BW teams split up into BW and SC2 divisions. Seriously it has to be extremely heart-breaking if you are one of the best in practice games and only have a 25% chance to play in team games for KT
It's hard to be one of the best in practise games when u're playing against flash... u basically just sit there and wait to get rolled over.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50584 Posts
On January 25 2012 23:10 dots-chan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 02:12 zdfgucker wrote:
I would LOVE to see A teamers from BW teams split up into BW and SC2 divisions. Seriously it has to be extremely heart-breaking if you are one of the best in practice games and only have a 25% chance to play in team games for KT It's hard to be one of the best in practise games when u're playing against flash... u basically just sit there and wait to get rolled over.
unless you're hoejja.
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On January 25 2012 16:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half. From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse. Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation. I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
KeSPA teams did try to recruit foreigners to expand their audience. They've got nothing on Gom in foreign relations, but they'd definitely put an effort to hire foreign casters/etc if they saw the market.
Truth be told, this scene needed KeSPA's money, influence, and player support since Blizzard didn't offer the former two, and the latter is still largely missing from the Korean scene. MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/IEM/NASL would still be around for the foreign scene.
I understand that KeSPA goes a bit crazy on rule regulation, and that they were the "unpopular" side on the Blizzard v KeSPA debate, but now it's obvious that Blizzard lacked vision and only damaged what could/should have been.
Truth be told, I think Gom is being over-praised in this situation. OGN could surely hire some English speaking casters and stream OS2L in English. It's not like Gom attempted to get GSL broadcasts to an international audience on TV, yes?
By the way, there's a thread around there that said Gom told the Seoul barcraft to stop. That's not exactly a good mark on their resume.
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On January 26 2012 04:00 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 16:31 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half. From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse. Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation. I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell. KeSPA teams did try to recruit foreigners to expand their audience. They've got nothing on Gom in foreign relations, but they'd definitely put an effort to hire foreign casters/etc if they saw the market. Truth be told, this scene needed KeSPA's money, influence, and player support since Blizzard didn't offer the former two, and the latter is still largely missing from the Korean scene. MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/IEM/NASL would still be around for the foreign scene. I understand that KeSPA goes a bit crazy on rule regulation, and that they were the "unpopular" side on the Blizzard v KeSPA debate, but now it's obvious that Blizzard lacked vision and only damaged what could/should have been. Truth be told, I think Gom is being over-praised in this situation. OGN could surely hire some English speaking casters and stream OS2L in English. It's not like Gom attempted to get GSL broadcasts to an international audience on TV, yes? By the way, there's a thread around there that said Gom told the Seoul barcraft to stop. That's not exactly a good mark on their resume.
You could also argue that KeSPA lacked vision when BW was really hot in Korea, but not trying to expose the world to it or actively try to contribute the budding foreign communities struggling to hold on. I kind of heard that KeSPA included foreigners in eSTRO and Entus (I think), but did they ever try to push the envelope or give any hint they even wanted to expand the scene beyond their immediate borders?
I think there is no "best" choice in this scenario. Both options seem to come with a host of negatives.
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On January 25 2012 17:24 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 15:52 boxturtle wrote:On January 25 2012 11:58 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote:
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji. I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it? It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa 1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment. I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind. Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft. Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website). Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years. Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have. I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company. 2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had. Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits. Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had. If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2. Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa. SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
No I'm pretty sure Blizzard is quite aware of how big BW is/was in Korea. Blizzard was just arrogant, greedy, and spiteful, and most importantly, failed to understand how fragile the whole Starcraft scene actually was after its peak. But KeSPA doesn't escape blame either - beyond being greedy, Blizzard had good reason to distrust them. They both were acting stupid, and both suffered for it. Blizzard's Korean team pretty much defected, and I'm sure the SC2 market in Korea didn't meet initial projections (but the success of SC2 outside of Korea made up for that). KeSPA on the other hand "lost" MBC and is hemorrhaging the pro teams that it regulates.
It's weird to see how both organizations managed to spawn and govern the Starcraft scene yet bungle it in so many ways, big and small.
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sorry to all LOL and Dota fans... but throwing huge prizemoney to tourneys and making it popular is going to be their doom... Its like giving the lottery without nobody buying tickets , or giving WSOP prizes to poker players without them paying the entry fee..
Sc2 has so many games and tourneys everyday that even the community sometimes cant pick up , but one thing is for sure , were there , it may have less viewers and even players , but it has much more dedication and support , also because community is normally older guys 18-25 yr old as opposed to 12-18 on LOL..
Steam has like normally 50k players on CS 1,6 , 50 k on Skyrim , 50 k on COD , 50k on source and 50k on TF2.. so i doubt Dota2 will have more than 100k daily players. The problem is that you also have origin now and consoles exist too , im not seeing anyone who doesnt play LOL or Dota watching it , but this is just my opinion on the Moba trend.
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LoL is popular because it's marketed well and it's free. There's nothing else to say on that front. It's easy as hell to market a free game. It's the same reason MapleStory is so highly ranked. You can play it without committing anything to playing it, unlike Sc2. Unfortunately, LoL (unlike DotA) has a really low skill ceiling because of how easy it is compared to its predecessor. Ultimately, though, LoL is still going to beat DotA2 in viewers just because it's too complicated to really be a spectator sport. To an extent, LoL's simplicity helps it in this arena, because even though there are 3 lanes and just 1 observer camera, there's not as much being missed due to the inherent simplicity of the game.
I've always said that Sc2 will continue to be the most watchable eSport, and it's the truth. You can watch Sc2 without knowing a lot about the game and be able to tell exactly what's going on. You can see every subtlety of strategy right there on display. Having played DotA for several years, I can tell you that it's still one of the most unexciting things to watch because about half the game is dead time with nothing happening. Now, I don't mean there's nothing happening on the level of strategy or mechanics, but to a viewer, there's not much going on at all. There's nothing exciting about watching someone farm really well or last hit perfectly. It's cool, sure, but it's not even close to as interesting as watching early game TvZ. That's the problem with MOBA games that will keep them from attracting a diverse crowd as eSports. People will watch them if and only if they are regular players.
As for Kespa, we desperately need it . Sc2 is lacking legitimacy at the moment. Everyone is quick to defer to Blizzard or to do whatever they want as a pro player. This is not conducive to a growing scene. I don't want an ultra-controlling organization in charge, but I do want big sponsors, business-oriented decisions, and guidelines which prevent players/casters from doing detrimental things to the scene without consequence.
As for the overall scene, Sc2 will be fine because of the strong infrastructure which is in place. No other game has team houses or stable teams like Sc2 does. Looking at MOBA games, in particular DotA, it was not uncommon to see teams break up and reform every month or two. This is problematic behaviour from the point of view of a sponsor. It's very difficult to picture Samsung or Intel stepping in and saying "we want to sponsors this American team that will probably break up in a month or two." With Starcraft 2? It's more feasible, because teams are teams with tangible, relevant contracts and generally substantial salaries. Putting a DotA team on salary is expensive because of the 5-player dynamic and the constant liability of internal disagreements between members leading to one or more players abandoning the others.
In sum, Blizzard DOES need to put more money into the scene, because this is the one game where it would actually be beneficial. Valve and Riot are basically investing in games which are 100% player driven, rather than sponsor driven. Starcraft 2 is driven by sponsors, players, and its existing infrastructure. Any investment from Blizzard would automatically attract huge interest for the Sc2 community because there are established channels for it to impact.
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I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess.
Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team.
Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players.
http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/
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On February 20 2012 00:15 pdd wrote:I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess. Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team. Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players. https://twitter.com/#!/FXOpeneSports/status/171245500933214209http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/
his id is scar[Shield],he is playing for SlayerS's B team...
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On February 20 2012 00:21 dragonborn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 00:15 pdd wrote:I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess. Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team. Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players. https://twitter.com/#!/FXOpeneSports/status/171245500933214209http://fxoboss.tumblr.com/ his id is scar[Shield],he is playing for SlayerS's B team...
I don't think Boss would make a big post about 'prominent' players moving to SC2, if it was Scar. Scar was a virtual unknown in BW.
EDIT: Looking at BW TLPD though, the only prominent Shield guys who haven't made the switch are Bisu and Sea. Kinda doubt either of them would be moving.
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EPT
