Note: this is a translated article from TIG. There are currently total of five parts (and still going) and this is from the part four. The purpose of the article is to talk about the growth of GSL and things that can use improvements. It covers a vast array of subjects. This particular part (pt 4) talks about the need of SC2 association, player professionalism, and of course the impact of BW Pros playing SC2. TIG invited GOMTV director, Mr. Chae, StarTale coach, Mr. Won, and IMNestea from Incredible Miracle to talk about these issues.
'The heroes of the GSL are players, but even they have to make a living'
Most SC2 players do not earn salaries. This is the area that contrasts the most when compared to BW pros. How are the economic conditions of players in reality? Are players able to make a living simply from the GSL prizes? We wanted to know what Nestea thought about this issue.
TIG> As the year was closing, we got to see the data about player's prize income. When we took the average of the total prize for each player, it came out to be about 1,000,000won. Of course, the top players are making good money, but isn't it too difficult for other players?
Nestea> Of course. But it's all the same for both BW and SC2. It's always difficult for low tiered players. And then, there are players that are in between. They are good players who have been to semi-finals but it's hard for them to make a living. In our team, that player is Happy. When the team is not rich and the player is not able to secure a good prize money, that player is now exposed to some possible changes in his career. I can actually relate to the situation they are in and understand the choices they make (note: he's talking about korean players joining foreign teams). In fact, I received some offers as well. I declined them all because I'm making a good living and the impact of my depareture is huge to my team. However, if I were in a situation of a player like Happy, I might have chosen a different option for my career.
TIG> Then why are they insisting on staying in the team house?
Nestea> Team house environment is really good for practicing. I think that's one of the reasons how players can improve and thus make good results.
Coach Won> The most important thing is the practice regime. In our case (StarTale), everyone except RainBow stays in the team house and practice according to the schedule. We also have frequent meetings to discuss various strategies or new ways to improve their skills. These activities are very important. Those who do not stay in the team house must have a great self control and right mindset. However, young players often do not have those attributes. For these players, it's up to the team to show them the proper way. The single most important thing a team can offer is the team house where players can live their lives together. They learn not only about the game itself, but also how to live amongst others and ultimately in this society. It's a job place as well as school.
Nestea> That's what I meant to say. I just could not elaborate it well (laughing)
'Whose responsibility is it for the lack of professionalism? Is a binding organization or association required?'
With a start of 2011 GSL came the SC2Con association. However, it no longer exists. It was disbanded back in Sepember 24, 2011 after realizing that they could not perform the necessary duties. Coincidently, after it was disbanded, a few incidents of players acting unprofessionally began to surface. Since then, many players and officials talked about the need of an organization that will enforce and train players of the proper dealings between players and their teams, the teams and the league, as well as the dealings between teams each other.
TIG> Since SC2Con disbanded, there were a few incidents in regards to the professionalism. Byun and Coca is one example. A proper training of professionalism is needed, but the question is who should be in charge of it?
Mr. Chae> Sounds like you are telling me we should do it (laughing). Actually, I do think it's our job (note: GOMTV actually held a professional conduct seminar with many players not too long ago)
TIG> Ah.. No, I didn't meant it that way. I'm just saying, it looks like we need some organization who can perform such tasks. Currently there is no entity who can organize events or mediate different ideas.
Coach Won> I think it's absolutely necessary that there should be an association. The SC2Con had no power. We could not even discipline players. That's why, for the success of the league and the teams, we must have an association which involves all stake holders so that we can train players properly and resolve any disputes of player transfers. Currently, there is nothing that stops these from happening. There hasn't been a big problem yet, but I think it can happen at any time. It's not good that players are losing their match on purpose. In my opinion, the fact that these problems keep coming up desipte the trainings from each team indicates that players are missing the most basic education.
I also have to mention this since we are speaking about the SC2 association. There is a rumor that BW teams are starting SC2 sometime this April. Nothing's been official, but that's the word on the street. This is another reason why there must be a SC2 association. I'm not saying we are competing against them. But, we should posture ourselves to protect our interests. I think the SC2 association is a must in that regard. Also, if KeSPA, Blizzard, or GOMTV wants an information about SC2 to be public, I think they must talk to the teams first before doing so. It's the same with the fans. They are all esports fans. There is no need to distinguish between BW fans and SC2 fans. We shouldn't be fighting for the already small market. We should all try to find a common ground and have discussions and gather opinions from fans, and SC2 association is a necessity tool for this to happen.
TIG> Is there a possibility of you starting the SC2Con again? I also feel that it's existance is necessary.
Coach Won> I want to. I'm thinking about it. However, it's not as simple as having team coaches together. As you know, coaches are already busy with the team operations that not many coaches are willing to commit to running the SC2 association. And, the association must have its own office and financially stable in order to gain credibility and accreditation. However, someone needs to do it. This is not going to get done over a night, but I think we should continue to talk about this with GOMTV and other team coaches.
TIG> Actually, there was a movement to start the SC2 association last year. With the beginning of the new year, I wish we'd continue those meetings again with GOMTV and a 3rd party mediator. It's important for player management and player contract disputes. I think this is something we should do it with a haste. We all should be part of it, including GOMTV - because players are already part of your league. We should all share our opinions and I think that having a 3rd party moderator is important.
'What if SC1 teams start SC2?'
While we were talking about the SC2 association, it was mentioned that BW pro teams are starting SC2. So, we started talking about how it will impact the current SC2 pro teams. This is a bit of sensitive topic, but we could not just turn blind eyes to it. In this world of unknown future that is e-sports, what are the views of current SC2 pro teams?
TIG> It's no secret that BW pro teams are getting ready to play SC2. Actually there has be numerous proposals about it. It's almost a fact now that BW pro teams are getting ready to step into the SC2 world. I'm not saying this is going to be a problem. However, we have to think about the current SC2 pro teams first.
Coach Won> I can't talk about the details but it's true that I've received a proposal relating to that.
Nestea> I've also received it. They asked me to introduce some players for them. Some players come from BW background, so they exchange some of the know-hows with them already. It's the same case for me, but I don't really do it seriously. I can't just hand out my strategies that I worked so hard for to these new BW pros. I don't even do that for other current SC2 pros.
TIG> That's the story. This is a problem for SC2 teams, and has a potential to be a big problem. They are weaker in both financially and influentially when compared to BW teams.
Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. Honestly, we cannot compete with them financially. How will we stop them from taking our players by offering more money? There needs to be some protective measures and plans for when the time comes, but realistically it's very difficult.
TIG> how would players react to an offer from BW pro teams?
Nestea> They would definitely consider it. What I heard was that they want players that are very bottom tiered, the ones who can't even break Code A. They want to buy them cheap and invest in them. Actually, I was approached for my opinions on which players are willing to come and for how much. They even asked me to introduce them and one player actually went.
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
Coach Won> I would like to ask one thing. I heard that you do not have any plans of preventing BW teams from participating in GSTL, is that correct?
Mr. Chae> No, we won't stop them from participating. We can't. Haven't you forgotten about the "classic" incident? (note: not sure what he's referring to here)
Coach Won> I'm curious how it would be. Will current SC2 teams be competitive enough to advance in the GSTL? (note: he's implying that GOMTV may choose the top 10 teams or so in the GSTL, instead of all available teams)
TIG> That's right. This is an important discussion. To add to it, the best thing GOMTV can do is protecting the current SC2 players and pro teams. I also think that way. I don't think we should stop BW pro teams from participating GSL or GSTL. However, current SC2 players should be allowed to participate in their tournaments and leagues. I think that's something GOMTV has to do. Everything else is up to the pro teams. Also, nothing's been finalized but it's true that too many things get done behind the closed door. Both GSL and current SC2 pro teams think that the basis of the league should grow bigger and bigger, instead of getting smaller. With that in mind, I think it would be wonderful if both BW teams and SC2 teams work together in that regard. GOMTV can provide the environment for that to happen, and each pro team can focus on growing their own team. Let's close the topic here and move on to the next.
My note: they talk about a lot more than just these topics and most of them are pretty good read. I won't be translating them all, but I thought I'd share this with you all since it pertains the information about BW teams switching. Now, discuss away!
i wish more money was pumped into korean sc2 teams; considering the fact that they still completely dominate foreign teams in practice regimen and results, they deserve it and it would prevent bw teams from overtaking when they switch.
however i wouldnt mind sc2 teams merging with bw teams that are switching over. slayers + SKT anyone??? LOL.
Damn seems they are a bit worried BW teams are just going to separate themselves from gom or whatever. I hope not, I hope kespa or whatever when they switch all can work together. Sigh really hope this goes for the better and not worse for any korean teams and hopefully adds more leagues. This year is going to be very interesting in korea from the sound of it.
"After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. Honestly, we cannot compete with them financially. How will we stop them from taking our players by offering more money? " LOL
Really nice int I hope we can read the other parts, thank you.
I never really though of the challenges of the BW teams coming into the SC2 scene. I was way into the OMG THEY'RE COMING mindset. However, it does seem like there are a lot of challenges whne the come in, money, tournmanets, expectations, etc. I hate to pinpoint GOMTV, but I think how the transition goes will be up to them. They provide the overall structure, so hopefully, they have a plan when the BW teams come.
"After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. Honestly, we cannot compete with them financially. How will we stop them from taking our players by offering more money?"
This would hurt E-Sports.
This is not BW, stop with the seclusion shit......
Mr. Chae> No, we won't stop them from participating. We can't. Haven't you forgotten about the "classic" incident? (note: not sure what he's referring to here)
he's probably referring to the gomtv classic, a starcraft tournament that was broadcasted on sunday nights on gomtv. teams like ongamenet, mbcgame and estro didn't participate in it due to obvious conflict of interest (sk telecom participated for only one season before deciding to drop out).
The "Classic" incident may be in reference to how Incredible Miracle was not allowed to participate in a GSTL season despite being past champions due to not having enough players competing in the individual GSL league at the time. Since then they have tried to stray from barring teams from competing to avoid similar situations.
I don't think the top BW folk will switch as long as there is demand for BW in Korea, and there still is. The last proleague finals were quite a success, though I remember from some other articles that things were much bigger in 2007 or so. Stork also had an interview and he said as long as there is demand for BW competition, he'll play BW.
Once the Bw teams start playing sc2, will they still have the bw division continue? Will sc2 just be another division like how teams have players that play different games like warcraft 3, fps games, etc or is BW actually "switching" to sc2?
Interesting read. I hope that the BW teams that switch over can play nice with the current SC2 teams. If the BW teams want their own SC2 league though, things are definitely going to be difficult the SC2 teams. With the BW teams having more sway and money in Korea, there's potential for some ugly stuff to happen.
SC 2 Korean teams aren't going to have the same kind of sponsorship as the BW teams, so they're definitely at a disadvantage in terms of being able to retain talent. I'm betting that most of the smaller teams that struggling to find sponsors and get results (Zenex is the best example) will essentially dissolve with the switch. I'm sure SlayerS, oGs, and IM won't undergo too many changes, but it's tough to say for Prime, MVP, and TSL.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
It means that they hope that they will be able to negotiate so that BW teams can play in the GSL and that the GSL teams can play in BW's SC2 league.
Actually I just reread what that that answer is in reference to. Mr Chae is saying he doesn't think it's a problem if BW teams buy sc2 players as long as SC2 players are performing better than the BW players that switch.
I believe in order to survive the coming of the BW teams, some sc2 teams will need to consolidate with each other. There are too many sc2 teams in Korea as it is and with some of them with barely a dozen members. And hopefully attract some more powerful sponsors in the international market cause it seems like they are being blacklisted somewhat in the Korean market by the influence of Kespa.
On January 23 2012 17:27 RaiKageRyu wrote: I believe in order to survive the coming of the BW teams, some sc2 teams will need to consolidate with each other. There are too many sc2 teams in Korea as it is and with some of them with barely a dozen members. And hopefully attract some more powerful sponsors in the international market cause it seems like they are being blacklisted somewhat in the Korean market by the influence of Kespa.
blacklisted lol. Yeah what exactly gives you that idea?
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
I think what he's trying to say is as long as SC2 players are as good or better than the BW players there will be no problems with the current SC2/GSL players and teams to participate in the BW leagues (OSL).
If the BW players and teams would be significantly better than the current SC2 players/teams they could just exclude the teams because of the fact that they are 2nd tier and they want the best of the best.
I think Chae is talking about what Coach Won said earlier in the interview.
Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. Honestly, we cannot compete with them financially. How will we stop them from taking our players by offering more money? There needs to be some protective measures and plans for when the time comes, but realistically it's very difficult.
On January 23 2012 17:04 nath wrote: i wish more money was pumped into korean sc2 teams; considering the fact that they still completely dominate foreign teams in practice regimen and results, they deserve it and it would prevent bw teams from overtaking when they switch.
however i wouldnt mind sc2 teams merging with bw teams that are switching over. slayers + SKT anyone??? LOL.
Considering the size of the teams, you cannot really call it a "merge", more like assimilation... <.<
There seems to be a lot of information available about the coming switch.
Personally, I don't feel strong for the current team brands, and wouldn't be too sad if e.g. New Star HoSeo, ZeNEX or TSL would be merged with a BW team. An example is when fOu was taken over by FXO, I think it just helped them.
Most important is that SC2 grows stronger i Korea. It is time for them to leave BW behind and move over to SC2. A good timing for the BW players would be to wait until HotS, since everything will be turned up side down then anyway.
TIG> how would players react to an offer from BW pro teams?
Nestea> They would definitely consider it. What I heard was that they want players that are very bottom tiered, the ones who can't even break Code A. They want to buy them cheap and invest in them. Actually, I was approached for my opinions on which players are willing to come and for how much. They even asked me to introduce them and one player actually went.
Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
I think what he's trying to say is as long as SC2 players are as good or better than the BW players there will be no problems with the current SC2/GSL players and teams to participate in the BW leagues (OSL).
If the BW players and teams would be significantly better than the current SC2 players/teams they could just exclude the teams because of the fact that they are 2nd tier and they want the best of the best.
I think Chae is talking about what Coach Won said earlier in the interview.
Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. Honestly, we cannot compete with them financially. How will we stop them from taking our players by offering more money? There needs to be some protective measures and plans for when the time comes, but realistically it's very difficult.
Bolded the interesting part.
Nah it appears, although the answer is worded badly/confusingly, that he is answering this:
TIG> how would players react to an offer from BW pro teams?
Nestea> They would definitely consider it. What I heard was that they want players that are very bottom tiered, the ones who can't even break Code A. They want to buy them cheap and invest in them. Actually, I was approached for my opinions on which players are willing to come and for how much. They even asked me to introduce them and one player actually went.
And then:
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
So he's saying that GOMTV doesn't think it's a problem with low tier players switching and being trained up by BW teams, what Nestea said was likely for players not making much currently, providing of course that interest exists because the SC2 players are still better than their BW counterparts upon switching.
On January 23 2012 17:37 lbmaian wrote: Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
speaking of slayers, i dont think any bw/sc2 fan wouldn't want to see boxer play. so if they exclude the current sc2 scene then fuck that ):
On January 23 2012 17:35 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Weird that the Bw teams are switching before HOTS. Would have been smart to start on almost equal footing with the sc2 pros. Bad for the sc2 teams tho
Completely agree. BW teams should wait until after HoTS.
Even ignoring the fresh start thing, the gameplay should be improved (hopefully), bnet may finally be good (I can always hope), and greater all around publicity.
On January 23 2012 17:35 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Weird that the Bw teams are switching before HOTS. Would have been smart to start on almost equal footing with the sc2 pros. Bad for the sc2 teams tho
Completely agree. BW teams should wait until after HoTS.
Even ignoring the fresh start thing, the gameplay should be improved (hopefully), bnet may finally be good (I can always hope), and greater all around publicity.
It's the perfect time to switch. HotS beta will be coming soon(around April probably), and they can get used to the SC2 mechanics and units before then. Then practice all through HotS beta.
If they're saying April, then it's probably what a lot of people suspected. That the first season of Proleague will be Brood War and then they will have that Grand Final as a send-off before the second season is entirely Starcraft 2 starting in April.
I think this could be fun. Maybe have the GSTL champions face the Proleague champions in a Super Bowl-like event. Would probably make a lot of cash.
On January 23 2012 17:35 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: Weird that the Bw teams are switching before HOTS. Would have been smart to start on almost equal footing with the sc2 pros. Bad for the sc2 teams tho
Completely agree. BW teams should wait until after HoTS.
Even ignoring the fresh start thing, the gameplay should be improved (hopefully), bnet may finally be good (I can always hope), and greater all around publicity.
They'll probably just practice on the side for a while. Really, there isn't a need to switch this early, or even in the next year. But it's still a good idea to practice so the transition doesn't take as long cause then you'd be like 2 years behind.
On January 23 2012 17:37 lbmaian wrote: Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
I doubt Slayers would come anywhere close to any of the BW team (except for ACE) financially. Quick searching around shows that Intel provided Boxer personally with around $200,000 and another $300,000 to run the team. Source
That's like maybe half of salary budget for an average BW team.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
It means that GOMTV doesn't care who is in their league. Actually I'm sure they want BW teams in their league. It will boost their business. Remember that their contract with Blizzard runs until next year.
On January 23 2012 17:42 Fionn wrote: If they're saying April, then it's probably what a lot of people suspected. That the first season of Proleague will be Brood War and then they will have that Grand Final as a send-off before the second season is entirely Starcraft 2 starting in April.
I think this could be fun. Maybe have the GSTL champions face the Proleague champions in a Super Bowl-like event. Would probably make a lot of cash.
That would actually be cool. The problem would be who would produce it? GOM or the BW side (since im not into BW scene i dont know which station is doing it)
This is going to be crazy. Nestea knows that the top teams are already trying to snipe the undiscovered talent. He notes that they are trying to harvest players that have great potential and for cheap instead of buying up the "top players". They know that in the end hopefully their players will be better than the current generation of sc2 pros. This is pretty scary that they might exclude the current teams all together. Not sure how this would work since many sc1 pros have already come over and done well or alright. No one is just mind boggling good.
On January 23 2012 17:37 lbmaian wrote: Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
I doubt Slayers would come anywhere close to any of the BW team (except for ACE) financially. Quick searching around shows that Intel provided Boxer personally with around $200,000 and another $300,000 to run the team. Source
That's like maybe half of salary budget for an average BW team.
Iirc running a BW team costs around 2-3 million a year.
Great translation and thank you! I think the most interesting part of this article that hasnt been brought up before is if BW teams will just exclude the current SC2 team because of there money and influence. When they do finally make the switch, we had better be prepared for the shit storm of drama that's incoming.
On January 23 2012 17:37 lbmaian wrote: Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
Slayers is doing not bad because of the name "Boxer" and Jessica has some connections. Also I heard Prime isn't too bad either
As long as KESPA doesn't feel like going super power hungry on the scene I don't think the switch will be terrible, as long as teams are willing to merge or dissolve under a united union like SC2CON or Kespa or whatever. I mean, looking at the current BW teams: KT, Khan, Stars, CJ, T1, Stx, Ace, Team 8 I can easily see two easily dissolved teams, Ace and Team 8. And looking at the current SC2 teams: IM, MVP, HoSeo, Startale, OGS, TSL, Prime, Zenex, FXO, Slayers Zenex and TSL come to mind when thinking of merging with other teams. So this leaves us with 14 teams. Maybe merge two more teams and boom, 12 easily stable teams to make a proleague with.
Of course the issue is getting everybody happy to agree with this >.> But just my 2 cents.
THe other thing behind it , is that , the korean audience, would watch it more, if there are BW teams involved. As well as myself XD. And, too much egoism right here, everyone wants to protect their own interests besides let e-sports grow overall in south korea. Why? Because gom , obviusly is just saying that they are worry for the teams, but in reality, they are worried for their own channel only.
On January 23 2012 17:13 Bleak wrote: I don't think the top BW folk will switch as long as there is demand for BW in Korea, and there still is. The last proleague finals were quite a success, though I remember from some other articles that things were much bigger in 2007 or so. Stork also had an interview and he said as long as there is demand for BW competition, he'll play BW.
I don't think demand for BW is the be all end all. It's no secret that BW is backed by significantly more influential sponsors than SC2 in Korea, but if those sponsors feel that supporting a player switch and promoting it will be enough to also bring over significant amounts of BW viewers to SC2 then they can retain a good amount of their target viewership in Korea while tapping into the now significantly bigger global market.
At the end of the day if the powers that be think it'll be more profitable and sustainable to make the switch it'll probably happen.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
As long as SC2 players are better than most BW players for a while after any switch (though we've heard for a while now there's a lot of them practicing, and NesTea's comments suggests as much) there's no real issue because the established sc2 scene will still have the better players and as such shouldn't be able to get cut out of any transition.
====
Really interesting read tbh, great selection of interviewees too, I thought they all offered some different but equally interesting perspectives on the topics at hand.
Would love if someone wanted to translate the whole thing? *hint hint*
On January 23 2012 17:37 lbmaian wrote: Out of all the Korean SC2 teams, I'd expect Slayers to be the most financially stable. Just look at how often they poach players from other teams and have two very prominent sponsors (Intel and Razer).
I wonder how Slayers finances compare with the BW teams, even the lowest-paid ones.
Slayers is doing not bad because of the name "Boxer" and Jessica has some connections. Also I heard Prime isn't too bad either
Prime did the whole PrimeZzang thing right? I thought that was bizarre at first but it really seems to have given them some serious self-sustainability which is cool. Of course part of that is dependant on them remaining relevant to market it.
On January 23 2012 17:56 Balgrog wrote: Great translation and thank you! I think the most interesting part of this article that hasnt been brought up before is if BW teams will just exclude the current SC2 team because of there money and influence. When they do finally make the switch, we had better be prepared for the shit storm of drama that's incoming.
I think it's almost given that kespa will have their own tourney / league. That's why the TIG reporter kept going after GOM in that article because it's going to be GOM who will have to negotiate the deal
On January 23 2012 17:42 Fionn wrote: If they're saying April, then it's probably what a lot of people suspected. That the first season of Proleague will be Brood War and then they will have that Grand Final as a send-off before the second season is entirely Starcraft 2 starting in April.
I think this could be fun. Maybe have the GSTL champions face the Proleague champions in a Super Bowl-like event. Would probably make a lot of cash.
That would actually be cool. The problem would be who would produce it? GOM or the BW side (since im not into BW scene i dont know which station is doing it)
On January 23 2012 17:51 Wolf wrote: This is embarrassing.
How so?
He probably won't answer. Which is a bummer because he probably knows some inside information and his remark is based on what he knows and how that compares to the article (which makes it even more interesting).
Which begs the question why even post something so ambiguous in the first place?
people are saying they cant wait till sc1 pros come to sc2 to dominate the scene.. but in honesty i believe its like sc2 players vsing sc1 players and i hope transition wont be foreigners to koreans anymore and i hope they make a world championship having the starcraft 2 players vsing the newer of the old starcraft 1 pros.. i only started watching starcraft from starcraft 2 so all these brood war players i honestly could care less and i would rather see MVP, MMA, Huk, idrA dominate the sc1 players and show them whats up since there coming into SC2
That translation brings up a lot of awesome subjects. I really hope more and more attention is brought to SC2. The one disappointing thing though of course is the funding of SC2 teams which is rather sad.
i say bring them on. sc2 teams will rip them a new one, idc who they are, sc2 is a different faster paced game that takes months of practice to get good at.
oh and the whole thing about sc2 teams struggling in korea will end once bw pros switch over. With bw pros come all the spectators and sponsors. it will be once again about who plays the best and can nab them all.
With a start of 2011 GSL came the SC2Con association. However, it no longer exists. It was disbanded back in Sepember 24, 2011 after realizing that they could not perform the necessary duties. Coincidently, after it was disbanded, a few incidents of players acting unprofessionally began to surface. Since then, many players and officials talked about the need of an organization that will enforce and train players of the proper dealings between players and their teams, the teams and the league, as well as the dealings between teams each other.
TIG> Since SC2Con disbanded, there were a few incidents in regards to the professionalism. Byun and Coca is one example. A proper training of professionalism is needed, but the question is who should be in charge of it?
Mr. Chae> Sounds like you are telling me we should do it (laughing). Actually, I do think it's our job (note: GOMTV actually held a professional conduct seminar with many players not too long ago)
TIG> Ah.. No, I didn't meant it that way. I'm just saying, it looks like we need some organization who can perform such tasks. Currently there is no entity who can organize events or mediate different ideas.
Coach Won> I think it's absolutely necessary that there should be an association. The SC2Con had no power. We could not even discipline players. That's why, for the success of the league and the teams, we must have an association which involves all stake holders so that we can train players properly and resolve any disputes of player transfers. Currently, there is nothing that stops these from happening. There hasn't been a big problem yet, but I think it can happen at any time. It's not good that players are losing their match on purpose. In my opinion, the fact that these problems keep coming up desipte the trainings from each team indicates that players are missing the most basic education.
I also have to mention this since we are speaking about the SC2 association. There is a rumor that BW teams are starting SC2 sometime this April. Nothing's been official, but that's the word on the street. This is another reason why there must be a SC2 association. I'm not saying we are competing against them. But, we should posture ourselves to protect our interests. I think the SC2 association is a must in that regard. Also, if KeSPA, Blizzard, or GOMTV wants an information about SC2 to be public, I think they must talk to the teams first before doing so. It's the same with the fans. They are all esports fans. There is no need to distinguish between BW fans and SC2 fans. We shouldn't be fighting for the already small market. We should all try to find a common ground and have discussions and gather opinions from fans, and SC2 association is a necessity tool for this to happen.
TIG> Is there a possibility of you starting the SC2Con again? I also feel that it's existance is necessary.
Coach Won> I want to. I'm thinking about it. However, it's not as simple as having team coaches together. As you know, coaches are already busy with the team operations that not many coaches are willing to commit to running the SC2 association. And, the association must have its own office and financially stable in order to gain credibility and accreditation. However, someone needs to do it. This is not going to get done over a night, but I think we should continue to talk about this with GOMTV and other team coaches.
TIG> Actually, there was a movement to start the SC2 association last year. With the beginning of the new year, I wish we'd continue those meetings again with GOMTV and a 3rd party mediator. It's important for player management and player contract disputes. I think this is something we should do it with a haste. We all should be part of it, including GOMTV - because players are already part of your league. We should all share our opinions and I think that having a 3rd party moderator is important.
Le sigh, nice way to start hinting about yet another control-organisation... I can see what they meant about Coca but more 'professionalism' into an already sterile scene will hardly help attract foreign attention -.- personally I'd much more enjoy the korean scene if they just drop it and act more casual, I would much rather see the MC from HSC than MC from GOMTV studios, by comparison you'd think he'd have a gun pointed at his head. Clash of culture I guess but I think it is rediculous... >_>
On January 23 2012 17:51 Wolf wrote: This is embarrassing.
How so?
He probably won't answer. Which is a bummer because he probably knows some inside information and his remark is based on what he knows and how that compares to the article (which makes it even more interesting).
Which begs the question why even post something so ambiguous in the first place?
He says it so people know he knows something. He just wants it to be known and then to read the replies of people posting him asking
I would really love it if everyone could just get along and both Brood War teams and Sc2 teams all play Sc2 in the same leagues and tournaments. Surely that would be best for everyone?
I'd like to think the best possible outcome from this merging of scenes, at least in the short-term, would be partnerships galore. Foreign and Korean SC2 teams partnering up with BW teams to share skills and prospects and even players in relevant leagues (think SKT1-Slayers or KT-IM). Gom partnering up with the BW leagues to create exhibition or even regular season combo leagues (where the teams would have to win both BW and SC2 games to win a match), which would support BW/SC2 combo teams.
I think cooperation like this could go so far in terms of mending the gap between BW and SC2 fans, and get them to begin to root for eachother's teams as their fates become intertwined. Merging the korean BW audience and the worldwide SC2 audience could do some amazing things for the strength of the e-sports market.
On January 23 2012 18:33 geno wrote: I'd like to think the best possible outcome from this merging of scenes, at least in the short-term, would be partnerships galore. Foreign and Korean SC2 teams partnering up with BW teams to share skills and prospects and even players in relevant leagues (think SKT1-Slayers or KT-IM). Gom partnering up with the BW leagues to create exhibition or even regular season combo leagues (where the teams would have to win both BW and SC2 games to win a match), which would support BW/SC2 combo teams.
I think cooperation like this could go so far in terms of mending the gap between BW and SC2 fans, and get them to begin to root for eachother's teams as their fates become intertwined. Merging the korean BW audience and the worldwide SC2 audience could do some amazing things for the strength of the e-sports market.
On January 23 2012 17:51 Wolf wrote: This is embarrassing.
How so?
He probably won't answer. Which is a bummer because he probably knows some inside information and his remark is based on what he knows and how that compares to the article (which makes it even more interesting).
Which begs the question why even post something so ambiguous in the first place?
He just wants to flaunt his inside knowledge, without getting into trouble. It doesn't contribute to anything, but at least he is able to stroke his own ego.
On January 23 2012 17:51 Wolf wrote: This is embarrassing.
How so?
He probably won't answer. Which is a bummer because he probably knows some inside information and his remark is based on what he knows and how that compares to the article (which makes it even more interesting).
Which begs the question why even post something so ambiguous in the first place?
He says it so people know he knows something. He just wants it to be known and then to read the replies of people posting him asking
Yeah. But it get's boring. All these "insiders" posting, bragging about knowing, but not actually sharing information. Dunno. Post it or leave it, Wolf!
Doesn't have GOMTV have exclusive broadcasting rights for quite some time still? KeSpA may be power hungry and BW teams may have the big money, but GOMTV has a lot of leverage here. It's not like the old BW progaming community can start its own broadcasted tournaments and exclude the current SC2 teams without GOMTV's consent.
I think that when the BW scene officially switches, it will only be for lower level B-teamers for a while. A-teamers still have enough things to do and offers to stay playing BW. So I wouldn't get too excited (I was at first, then I realised that Flash and Bisu aren't coming soon :D). Lower tiered BW players probably won't bring much to the table anyway. They're not any more talented that SC2's current best players and they're too late to really catch up and have some impact on the game.
So, one of the BW teams has just recently bought an IM player. Wonder who it is and if he no longer wears IM tag. Then we'll know who it is.
Chances are it's jmight be some unknown B-teamer who is brought just to update the BW players with strategies and basic mechanics though.
On January 23 2012 18:48 ZenithM wrote: I think that when the BW scene officially switches, it will only be for lower level B-teamers for a while. A-teamers still have enough things to do and offers to stay playing BW. So I wouldn't get too excited (I was at first, then I realised that Flash and Bisu aren't coming soon :D). Lower tiered BW players probably won't bring much to the table anyway. They're not any more talented that SC2's current best players and they're too late to really catch up and have some impact on the game.
I don't know. From the way it sounds, it seems like the switch will be en masse.
Not sure if there will be anything left to play for. If i'm not wrong, The OSL time slot is taken by OGN LoL for quite some time and a lot of rumours that second season of ProLeague will already be SC2 ( Milkis said " think people, there is a reason why PL is divided into 2 season, it is obvious" or something like that)
If that's the case, what's left is there to play for. Which might explain the urgency of these BW teams who are willing to pay players to share strategies with the current BW players.
It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
On January 23 2012 18:49 dtz wrote: So, one of the BW teams has just recently bought an IM player. Wonder who it is and if he no longer wears IM tag. Then we'll know who it is.
Chances are it's jmight be some unknown B-teamer who is brought just to update the BW players with strategies and basic mechanics though.
I don't think that's what Nestea meant. I think he was just saying that he wouldn't switch to one of the big companies like SKT1 or KT when they go to SC2 because he makes a comfortable living, but he can see someone who is really good, like Happy, who isn't very popular or get as much money due to not getting to finals would have a different mindset and maybe switch if granted the chance to make a better living.
On January 23 2012 17:51 Wolf wrote: This is embarrassing.
How so?
He probably won't answer. Which is a bummer because he probably knows some inside information and his remark is based on what he knows and how that compares to the article (which makes it even more interesting).
Which begs the question why even post something so ambiguous in the first place?
He says it so people know he knows something. He just wants it to be known and then to read the replies of people posting him asking
Yeah. But it get's boring. All these "insiders" posting, bragging about knowing, but not actually sharing information. Dunno. Post it or leave it, Wolf!
Exactly, especially when quite a few community figures complain about the community going on incomplete information and jumping to conclusions. If that isn't the whole story, and we are only being fed snippets of what's actually going on, how can you complain that we don't know enough about the situation? Sure, it's bad if people grab their pitchforks instantly, but to be honest you have to expect that, this being the internet and this being a very niche community. Either don't tell us anything, so that people don't grab their pitchforks, or tell us everything so we point them in the right way.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm eager to see some of the BW greats playing SC2 (obviously) but I'm anxious for the current SC2 teams to remain intact, independent and relevant to the scene.
On January 23 2012 18:49 dtz wrote: So, one of the BW teams has just recently bought an IM player. Wonder who it is and if he no longer wears IM tag. Then we'll know who it is.
Chances are it's jmight be some unknown B-teamer who is brought just to update the BW players with strategies and basic mechanics though.
I don't think that's what Nestea meant. I think he was just saying that he wouldn't switch to one of the big companies like SKT1 or KT when they go to SC2 because he makes a comfortable living, but he can see someone who is really good, like Happy, who isn't very popular or get as much money due to not getting to finals would have a different mindset and maybe switch if granted the chance to make a better living.
Wait, what about this part:
TIG> how would players react to an offer from BW pro teams?
Nestea> They would definitely consider it. What I heard was that they want players that are very bottom tiered, the ones who can't even break Code A. They want to buy them cheap and invest in them. Actually, I was approached for my opinions on which players are willing to come and for how much. They even asked me to introduce them and one player actually went.
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
This is the part that is interesting to me. It is likely just my ignorance, but if GOMTV has the sole contract with Blizzard, why are people worried about some other entity starting up an SC2 league and discluding the current SC2 scene. Or will this other entity just disregard GOMTV's exclusive rights?
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
Well situation is a bit different from yu example. AFL and NFL weren't dependant on a 3rd organization. It all depends on Blizzard on how he wants to develop korean market (thanks to south korea signing ACTA), So basically if Blizz wants 2 organisations. We will have 2 organisations.
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
This is the part that is interesting to me. It is likely just my ignorance, but if GOMTV has the sole contract with Blizzard, why are people worried about some other entity starting up an SC2 league and discluding the current SC2 scene. Or will this other entity just disregard GOMTV's exclusive rights?
Well GOM contract is running out. Blizzard only offered "junk contracts" (1-2 years) for broadcast rights. Thats was one of the reasons Kespa didn't introduce SC2. Cause then Blizzard might ditch them after they do all the hard work promoting the new game.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
That's exactly what i'm thinking as well. If it's really happening we'll see how it plays out, i personally would support GOM, even though i love the BW players and teams.
On January 23 2012 18:49 dtz wrote: So, one of the BW teams has just recently bought an IM player. Wonder who it is and if he no longer wears IM tag. Then we'll know who it is.
Chances are it's jmight be some unknown B-teamer who is brought just to update the BW players with strategies and basic mechanics though.
I don't think that's what Nestea meant. I think he was just saying that he wouldn't switch to one of the big companies like SKT1 or KT when they go to SC2 because he makes a comfortable living, but he can see someone who is really good, like Happy, who isn't very popular or get as much money due to not getting to finals would have a different mindset and maybe switch if granted the chance to make a better living.
He said " one player actually went" though.
But of course it might be something lost in translation. If someone could confirm that would be nice.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
Why would GSL and OSL not be able to coexist? They have different niche audience and if anything, they are positioned far better than MSL-OSL relationship. MBC game and OGN were often times cannibalizing each other's audience, ultimately leading to MBC game's demise.
Gom is different. It has a stable foreign support, as well as a distinctive base in Korea.
"Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. "
That quote pisses me off. If the BW teams come over to an already established scene and treat them like garbage it would seriously hurt the fan base I think. I'd likely stop watching personally. Why can't both sides respect eachother and work together? That's the best way for SC2 to succeed
i really hope that when BW teams come over they dont separate themselves from the current sc2 scene. not only would this inflict unneeded drama but it would isolate itself into two communities which wouldnt be the best for sc2 growth imo.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
Why would GSL and OSL not be able to coexist? They have different niche audience and if anything, they are positioned far better than MSL-OSL relationship. MBC game and OGN were often times cannibalizing each other's audience, ultimately leading to MBC game's demise.
Gom is different. It has a stable foreign support, as well as a distinctive base in Korea.
I think it would be best for them if they decided to broadcast on seperate nights and made sure their formats were slightly different. Same player pool for both leagues etc.
There seems to be a big worry here that if there is a mass switch, Kespa could create it own organization and try to cut out the current SC2 scene.
What this would mean (nightmare scenario): Kespa teams would NOT participate in GSL, appear on GOM.tv, or play against teams currently in the GSL. They would create an separate Star League for themselves, and air on a different broadcasting station. Creating a second parallel, competing SC2 scene.
What is more likely: Kespa teams are likely to aggressively negotiate with GOM.tv by saying "You either take all our teams and players wholesale, or the scenario above will happen." and either get Code A seeds in mass, or just straight-up buy middle-level teams. Either way there is only so much room for teams and a few (from both sides) will go under.
However, wherever there is talent, there will be profit. Mr.Chae's comment of "As long as the BW players that switch over aren't as good..." is very true. Fans want to see the best players in the world and as long as those players are in the GSL, Gom.tv will be the winner in any sort of power struggle. Additionally, if the switch happens, it will benefit the most talented players, because they'll earn a lot more money (though they might be bought by another team.)
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
This is the part that is interesting to me. It is likely just my ignorance, but if GOMTV has the sole contract with Blizzard, why are people worried about some other entity starting up an SC2 league and discluding the current SC2 scene. Or will this other entity just disregard GOMTV's exclusive rights?
KeSPA is the masters of doing completely illogical things.
On January 23 2012 18:59 jamessooy wrote: There seems to be a big worry here that if there is a mass switch, Kespa could create it own organization and try to cut out the current SC2 scene.
What this would mean (nightmare scenario): Kespa teams would NOT participate in GSL, appear on GOM.tv, or play against teams currently in the GSL. They would create an separate Star League for themselves, and air on a different broadcasting station. Creating a second parallel, competing SC2 scene.
What is more likely: Kespa teams are likely to aggressively negotiate with GOM.tv by saying "You either take all our teams and players wholesale, or the scenario above will happen." and either get Code A seeds in mass, or just straight-up buy middle-level teams. Either way there is only so much room for teams and a few (from both sides) will go under.
However, wherever there is talent, there will be profit. Mr.Chae's comment of "As long as the BW players that switch over aren't as good..." is very true. Fans want to see the best players in the world and as long as those players are in the GSL, Gom.tv will be the winner in any sort of power struggle. Additionally, if the switch happens, it will benefit the most talented players, because they'll earn a lot more money (though they might be bought by another team.)
Uh, if KeSPA does decide to switch, OS2L is going to happen. It's not a "nightmare" scenario, because Gom still has exclusive rights to broadcast SC2 in Korea, and KeSPA would need to negotiate with Gretech regardless.
It's not hard to imagine GSL/OSL co-existing considering BW had 2 leagues for nearly a decade.
I have no doubt KeSPA would do what they can to phase out the current SC2 scene and GOM along with it, given a chance. I just hope Blizzard has done what they can when negotiating the contract to ensure a coexistence(or a merge) of the two sides.
On January 23 2012 18:58 -stOpSKY- wrote: i really hope that when BW teams come over they dont separate themselves from the current sc2 scene. not only would this inflict unneeded drama but it would isolate itself into two communities which wouldnt be the best for sc2 growth imo.
Actually, from a business perspective, it would help sc2 grow. Who ever wins will undoubtedly absorb the other. They'll accomplish this because they have the funds, the sponsors, the management, and the leadership to do so. So while the process will be ugly - the end result will still be a product with the best sc2 players in the world competing in the worlds best tournament.
On January 23 2012 18:58 mrtomjones wrote: "Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. "
That quote pisses me off. If the BW teams come over to an already established scene and treat them like garbage it would seriously hurt the fan base I think. I'd likely stop watching personally. Why can't both sides respect eachother and work together? That's the best way for SC2 to succeed
I do understand where you're coming from believe me I do. But until we hear what the current BW scene want's to do everything else is speculation.
What is going to happen in the end? BW has the big, important korean sponsors. SK Telecom, KT, Samsung and CJ Entus. They are everywhere in Korea. It basicaly doesn't get any bigger than that. Plus they have OGN, an established and stable TV broadcaster with an expirienced production. Training houses, pro mapper, and a running infrastructure. That means they can almost instantly run a starleague and teamleague.
Since a lot of BW teams disbanded and MBC (the former second broadcaster) is closing/switching business, chances are good that the current SC2 scene will survive. I personaly would love to see OGN and GSL partner up for a proleague. Then we'd have a similar setup to what BW had. All teams and players would benefit from such a system.
Let's just wait and see. I'm looking forward to it. Personaly, this would probably bring me back to watching a lot of SC2.
Thanks a lot for translating this article, it's very interesting and great to finally get some more insight into the SC2 scene in Korea and how it could be potentially changing.
A couple of things I've come out of this with:
1). The April announcement: It sounds like all will be revealed in April. This could be for a few reasons that I can think. Firstly, as Fionn said it would allow a BW announcement to tie in with the conclusion of the 1st Proleague season. But more likely I think, is that GOM's exclusive agreement was for the first two years of SC2 broadcasting, which would end in July assuming in ties in with when the game was released. They could be announcing in April an SC2 league that begins in July, following the end of GOM's exclusive agreement with Blizzard. This makes a lot of sense to me, and would mean they wouldn't be reliant on GOM's agreement to run a league.
2). The fragile state of SC2's current pro teams. I think we were all aware that there wasn't a huge amount of money in the Korean SC2 scene, but I'd never considered it in relation to the BW teams, and the amount of money they have at their disposal due to sponsorship. If Kespa are able to start their own SC2 league outside of any agreement with GOM, then I'm worried that they will be able to completely exclude the existing Korean SC2 scene. They will have a large local fan base (based on existing BW support), and maybe based on the sponsors, etc, the foreign scene wouldn't be as important to them. I hope I'm wrong on this.
Personally, I hope that Kespa and GOM can work together to create a strong SC2 scene in Korea, where there are several leagues, many strong teams and plenty of opportunities for both Koreans and Foreigners to play SC2 in Korea. GOM has done a great job of being open to the foreigner community and I hope Kespa can see the benefits in that and take the same approach.
On a final note, just want to say I'm a little disappointed with Wolf's insider "this is embarrassing" comment as posting that without qualifying it at all is the same as kicking sand in the face of those of us who don't have insider information.
On January 23 2012 18:58 mrtomjones wrote: "Coach Won> It's a problem. We should all think about this. Frankly, I'm not even sure if BW teams will even acknowledge SC2 teams as a legit professional team. After all, there was a rumor of how they are going to exclude current SC2 scene and all. "
That quote pisses me off. If the BW teams come over to an already established scene and treat them like garbage it would seriously hurt the fan base I think. I'd likely stop watching personally. Why can't both sides respect eachother and work together? That's the best way for SC2 to succeed
I do understand where you're coming from believe me I do. But until we hear what the current BW scene want's to do everything else is speculation.
What is going to happen in the end? BW has the big, important korean sponsors. SK Telecom, KT, Samsung and CJ Entus. They are everywhere in Korea. It basicaly doesn't get any bigger than that. Plus they have OGN, an established and stable TV broadcaster with an expirienced production. Training houses, pro mapper, and a running infrastructure. That means they can almost instantly run a starleague and teamleague.
Since a lot of BW teams disbanded and MBC (the former second broadcaster) is closing/switching business, chances are good that the current SC2 scene will survive. I personaly would love to see OGN and GSL partner up for a proleague. Then we'd have a similar setup to what BW had. All teams and players would benefit from such a system.
Let's just wait and see. I'm looking forward to it. Personaly, this would probably bring me back to watching a lot of SC2.
Yah I agree with the wait and see. It still bugs me that some of them are worried about that though. Working together would be best for both their futures. I wouldn't expect every current SC2 team to survive, however, it should be most advantageous to continue the work that Gom has done. Gom reached out to us the foreigners and that to me seems very key to long term success. If BW came and had a second league as you say and had a partnership of sorts I'd be stoked.... wait and see though... yes..
One thing to think about: GOM has been working really really hard to cater to the foreign market. Foreigners pay to see GOMTV, they watch OGN on Nanashin's stream. GOM could potentially end up being crushed by the Korean market but subsisting on delicious foreign dollars.
That's probably why they advertise their yearly pass so much.
Still, a GSL and an OS2L at the same time would be amazing. GOM could end up being the MSL of SC2.
I expect most of the SC2 teams to collapse, and fold into each other/BW teams, with Zenex being eated by IM being eaten by CJ Entus.
TIme will tell, too much especulations. Some important decisions are beeing made in the background, and based on them, there will be a huge sucess or a huge fail.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
That's quite pessimistic of you to think two individual leagues can't co-exist, especially with how infrequent OSLs are held. MSL existed for years as a counterpart to OSL before MBC pulled the plug. So I can see GSL inheriting the role of being a sister league to OSL. When that time comes, GSL will probably reduce itself to 3-4 times a year as well.
I do however think that GSTL will cease to exist next year. It makes sense to have two individual leagues but it does not make sense to have two team leagues.
Most likely scenario I'm seeing is GOM will work with OGN casting the Proleague matches just like MBC did. I don't see them doing more than 10-12 teams. So some sc2 teams will die when judgement day comes. I also might think ACE might stop altogether along with perhaps one more BW team disbanding.. perhaps Woojin (Heard there was all but one team that upgraded computers). So I can see all the teams coming together for Proleague next year.
So I don't see GSL or OSL dying at all. The problem are the SC2 teams. I really don't want some of them to be assimilated because lets not kid ourselves, the BW teams aren't going to settle for partnerships. I hope Slayers, IM, Prime, oGs, and StarTale find a way to retain themselves and become on par footing with the BW teams.
__________
Also, my thoughts on a BW/SC2 combo league format is that it's a terrible idea. Anyone that actually is a fan of ESPORTS should know right now this is just the mere infancy stage. ESPORTS has to evolve as technology does until the point where we are controlling the game though our mind and played on virtual reality stadiums. A combo league just means they would be slowing down progress with indecisiveness.
I came into the StarCraft world with SC2, and everytime I hear anything about Broodwar, SC1, and the Proteams that are, I just get a worse and worse impression of them, and Broodwar in general.
Why would they exclude existing SC2 teams? What gives Broodwar teams the right to dictate anything? Why are the people running the Broodwar league so all-controlling? It seems really fishy. I have no clue how it works, but it seems they control everything - even how teams are set up, in an attempt to make all teams exactly equal. (Which isn't much fun - in my oppinion).
On January 23 2012 19:45 Jamial wrote: I came into the StarCraft world with SC2, and everytime I hear anything about Broodwar, SC1, and the Proteams that are, I just get a worse and worse impression of them, and Broodwar in general.
Why would they exclude existing SC2 teams? What gives Broodwar teams the right to dictate anything? Why are the people running the Broodwar league so all-controlling? It seems really fishy. I have no clue how it works, but it seems they control everything - even how teams are set up, in an attempt to make all teams exactly equal. (Which isn't much fun - in my oppinion).
It's a speculation..and an unlikely scenario. They are just throwing out a concern because BW scene has lot more money and fear that SC2 pro teams would not have any bargaining power against them; but as long as Gom doesn't abandon the current pro scene, there is very little thing KeSPA can do to make such things happen legally.
Besides, even if the teams don't survive because of lack of enough capital, the players (who are good enough) would easily get picked up by the ones with sponsor as these guys are extremely valuable in giving know-hows to the BW players.
In the end, this is going to be mostly exciting news, there is no reason to fearmonger over it.
On January 23 2012 19:45 Jamial wrote: I came into the StarCraft world with SC2, and everytime I hear anything about Broodwar, SC1, and the Proteams that are, I just get a worse and worse impression of them, and Broodwar in general.
Why would they exclude existing SC2 teams? What gives Broodwar teams the right to dictate anything? Why are the people running the Broodwar league so all-controlling? It seems really fishy. I have no clue how it works, but it seems they control everything - even how teams are set up, in an attempt to make all teams exactly equal. (Which isn't much fun - in my oppinion).
If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
On January 23 2012 19:45 Jamial wrote: I came into the StarCraft world with SC2, and everytime I hear anything about Broodwar, SC1, and the Proteams that are, I just get a worse and worse impression of them, and Broodwar in general.
Why would they exclude existing SC2 teams? What gives Broodwar teams the right to dictate anything? Why are the people running the Broodwar league so all-controlling? It seems really fishy. I have no clue how it works, but it seems they control everything - even how teams are set up, in an attempt to make all teams exactly equal. (Which isn't much fun - in my oppinion).
Its like in spain 1º division football players, go to play indoor football. With all that huge sponsorships, like nike, adidas,bbva,santander,and long etc. And pretend that nothing will tremble.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
That's quite pessimistic of you to think two individual leagues can't co-exist, especially with how infrequent OSLs are held. MSL existed for years as a counterpart to OSL before MBC pulled the plug. So I can see GSL inheriting the role of being a sister league to OSL. When that time comes, GSL will probably reduce itself to 3-4 times a year as well.
I do however think that GSTL will cease to exist next year. It makes sense to have two individual leagues but it does not make sense to have two team leagues.
Most likely scenario I'm seeing is GOM will work with OGN casting the Proleague matches just like MBC did. I don't see them doing more than 10-12 teams. So some sc2 teams will die when judgement day comes. I also might think ACE might stop altogether along with perhaps one more BW team disbanding.. perhaps Woojin (Heard there was all but one team that upgraded computers). So I can see all the teams coming together for Proleague next year.
So I don't see GSL or OSL dying at all. The problem are the SC2 teams. I really don't want some of them to be assimilated because lets not kid ourselves, the BW teams aren't going to settle for partnerships. I hope Slayers, IM, Prime, oGs, and StarTale find a way to retain themselves and become on par footing with the BW teams.
__________
Also, my thoughts on a BW/SC2 combo league format is that it's a terrible idea. Anyone that actually is a fan of ESPORTS should know right now this is just the mere infancy stage. ESPORTS has to evolve as technology does until the point where we are controlling the game though our mind and played on virtual reality stadiums. A combo league just means they would be slowing down progress with indecisiveness.
You're assuming all players will be free to participate in both tournaments though. That's far from certain at this point.
On January 23 2012 18:51 Fionn wrote: It's just going to be like the AFL and NFL back in the day in America. I cannot see both GSL and OSL (which would probably become a SC2 tournament) being around together for years to come. One side will win the War of Korea and the winner will eat the up the other side, leaving just one standing.
The winner will probably be the one with the money.
So take that as you want.
That's quite pessimistic of you to think two individual leagues can't co-exist, especially with how infrequent OSLs are held. MSL existed for years as a counterpart to OSL before MBC pulled the plug. So I can see GSL inheriting the role of being a sister league to OSL. When that time comes, GSL will probably reduce itself to 3-4 times a year as well.
I do however think that GSTL will cease to exist next year. It makes sense to have two individual leagues but it does not make sense to have two team leagues.
Most likely scenario I'm seeing is GOM will work with OGN casting the Proleague matches just like MBC did. I don't see them doing more than 10-12 teams. So some sc2 teams will die when judgement day comes. I also might think ACE might stop altogether along with perhaps one more BW team disbanding.. perhaps Woojin (Heard there was all but one team that upgraded computers). So I can see all the teams coming together for Proleague next year.
So I don't see GSL or OSL dying at all. The problem are the SC2 teams. I really don't want some of them to be assimilated because lets not kid ourselves, the BW teams aren't going to settle for partnerships. I hope Slayers, IM, Prime, oGs, and StarTale find a way to retain themselves and become on par footing with the BW teams.
__________
Also, my thoughts on a BW/SC2 combo league format is that it's a terrible idea. Anyone that actually is a fan of ESPORTS should know right now this is just the mere infancy stage. ESPORTS has to evolve as technology does until the point where we are controlling the game though our mind and played on virtual reality stadiums. A combo league just means they would be slowing down progress with indecisiveness.
If the GSL is reduced to 3-4 times a year.. would they be able to keep the ship afloat? Is that enough of return of investment to justify their existence? You're probably right about the GSTL disappearing as well, the GSL is really going to be stretched thin. Just my initial thoughts.
On January 23 2012 20:03 InternalSync wrote: If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
You can say goodbye to the foreign scene
No way in hell are the BW teams going to let some white guy train with them.
They are ok with it now because they have money, but BW teams have more money than foreign teams. And since they cant speak korean they are of absolute no use to them
So they seem really scared that BW pros will come and sweep the scene clean. However I think it has already been proven that BW skill does not directly correlate to SC2 skill, look at ForGG for a recent example of someone that was supposed to one-handedly win the GSL and got owned fast instead, despite his great micro and innovative strategies.
Imho it will only be good that more skilled and hardworking individuals are joining the scene, we will likely see the rise of a whole new array of gameplans and strategies. But I sincerely doubt the elefant is that much of an issue.
On January 23 2012 20:03 InternalSync wrote: If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
You can say goodbye to the foreign scene
No way in hell are the BW teams going to let some white guy train with them.
They are ok with it now because they have money, but BW teams have more money than foreign teams. And since they cant speak korean they are of absolute no use to them
CJ and Estro both let Idra train with them even without winning a Courage. One of the main reasons that only three foreigners in the past, what, four years (Nony, Idra and Ret) went to Korea to train with a team is because the foreign scene was miles, and I mean MILES, behind the Korean scene and there really was no use for foreigners in their house. The gap was so large that there really was no point to have any foreigner in your house when even your B-team could crush the guy.
I don't think any Korean team, Brood War or SC2, would give a shit if a guy is white or Korean if their skill is on par with the rest of the team and the player is marketable.
Thinking about it, there will be a reasonably small window where the top SC2 pro's stay at the top level due to the amount of time invested and the game intuition gained from the many hours of practise. This would be the time when they could bring in the most money from the rich BW teams, so there may be a period where we see the top SC2 Koreans changing teams for money.
I don't expect that window will be open for long though, as I'm sure the BW training ethic will kick in and the playing field will be relatively even (I hope).
Overall though, I'm looking forward to a higher number of high level SC2 matches - let's just hope the foreigner scene isn't ignored by Kespa
I'm very intrigued by this and a bit wary at the same time.
I am really curious as to how this whole transition is going to pan-out per se how many BW teams will snatch-up SC2 Pro's from their teams offering more money and what not.
On January 23 2012 20:14 Ender985 wrote: However I think it has already been proven that BW skill does not directly correlate to SC2 skill, look at ForGG for a recent example of someone that was supposed to one-handedly win the GSL and got owned fast instead, despite his great micro and innovative strategies.
At the time he moved, forGG was a washed up brood war player with barely over 50% win ratio and more on a level of a b-teamer. He was so bad that ACE Reach beat him twice, and Reach was horrible by then.
Tbh, all this forGG hype is made up by you hopeless SC2 fans because you desperately want a good bw player to switch to show that your game is oh-so-more-awesome-then-brood-war. Too bad forGG wasn't nowhere near those expectations.
Le sigh, nice way to start hinting about yet another control-organisation... I can see what they meant about Coca but more 'professionalism' into an already sterile scene will hardly help attract foreign attention -.- personally I'd much more enjoy the korean scene if they just drop it and act more casual, I would much rather see the MC from HSC than MC from GOMTV studios, by comparison you'd think he'd have a gun pointed at his head. Clash of culture I guess but I think it is rediculous... >_>
That does bring a question to my mind, and sorry if it has already been asked or answered. As a result of a governing body being in charge of Korean SC2, would the Korean players be able to act the way that they do in foreign events? If they choose to attend that is
There exist a yet untranslated article from Thisisgame here where OGN says that they want to pick up SC2 and that they would like to expand into the foreign market. So SC2 may not become entirely Korean after all.
This is a part translated which I've seen on Reddit:
Mr. Hwang mentions that he would very much like to pursue a StarCraft 2 league, but that they cannot proceed due to the exclusivity deal between GomTV and Blizzard. He says, "More interest is generated when there is competition, not a monopoly. In order to grow one needs colleagues and competitors," and points out that more competitions will drive players to work harder, and that will be to their benefit. With LoL picking up steam , Mr. Hwang alludes that either GomTV or Blizzard will need to make changes in order to stay competitive.
Le sigh, nice way to start hinting about yet another control-organisation... I can see what they meant about Coca but more 'professionalism' into an already sterile scene will hardly help attract foreign attention -.- personally I'd much more enjoy the korean scene if they just drop it and act more casual, I would much rather see the MC from HSC than MC from GOMTV studios, by comparison you'd think he'd have a gun pointed at his head. Clash of culture I guess but I think it is rediculous... >_>
That does bring a question to my mind, and sorry if it has already been asked or answered. As a result of a governing body being in charge of Korean SC2, would the Korean players be able to act the way that they do in foreign events? If they choose to attend that is
It's obviously not entirely impossible that they could face consequences if they do something prohibited by the "governing body being in charge of Korean SC2", but i would guess it's more up to the teams to decide how their players should represent themselves / their teams outside of Korea.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if they (current BW organisations) started up their own tourneys/leagues. Not sure I'd want (from a managers pov) a hugely popular BW pro being thrown into the unknown where it could negatively effect his popularity and standing within esports and therefore his sponsors etc. May as well start a new league where all BW pro's start to play SC2 from a relatively equal footing.
I think with the emergence of Kespa in SC2 it might be necessary for the foreigner scene to create somewhat of a counterpart (albeit less restricting) to protect the interests of non-korean pros and of koreans hired by western teams. If Kespa plans to exclude the current korean sc2 scene then this will also affect players like Huk, Puma, Hero; Zenio etc. Another thing to consider is that under a new regime Koreans might pressured to not join foreign teams so that the established bw teams will be able to keep the salaries for b-teamers or weaker a-teamer low.
On January 23 2012 20:14 Ender985 wrote: However I think it has already been proven that BW skill does not directly correlate to SC2 skill, look at ForGG for a recent example of someone that was supposed to one-handedly win the GSL and got owned fast instead, despite his great micro and innovative strategies.
At the time he moved, forGG was a washed up brood war player with barely over 50% win ratio and more on a level of a b-teamer. He was so bad that ACE Reach beat him twice, and Reach was horrible by then.
Tbh, all this forGG hype is made up by you hopeless SC2 fans because you desperately want a good bw player to switch to show that your game is oh-so-more-awesome-then-brood-war. Too bad forGG wasn't nowhere near those expectations.
Please tell me you are joking. You are saying the sc2 fans were hyping up forGG, really now?
On January 23 2012 20:43 StatorFlux wrote: There exist a yet untranslated article from Thisisgame here where OGN says that they want to pick up SC2 and that they would like to expand into the foreign market. So SC2 may not become entirely Korean after all.
This is a part translated which I've seen on Reddit:
Mr. Hwang mentions that he would very much like to pursue a StarCraft 2 league, but that they cannot proceed due to the exclusivity deal between GomTV and Blizzard. He says, "More interest is generated when there is competition, not a monopoly. In order to grow one needs colleagues and competitors," and points out that more competitions will drive players to work harder, and that will be to their benefit. With LoL picking up steam , Mr. Hwang alludes that either GomTV or Blizzard will need to make changes in order to stay competitive.
Yes, but this is OGN speaking, not KeSPA. OGN is merely the conduit through which BW games are broadcasted, and KeSPA is the true authority. OGN can have its wishes but its KeSPA who will decide whether they impose those wishes or not, or maybe they will but they'll put their own rules down.
On January 23 2012 20:43 StatorFlux wrote: There exist a yet untranslated article from Thisisgame here where OGN says that they want to pick up SC2 and that they would like to expand into the foreign market. So SC2 may not become entirely Korean after all.
This is a part translated which I've seen on Reddit:
Mr. Hwang mentions that he would very much like to pursue a StarCraft 2 league, but that they cannot proceed due to the exclusivity deal between GomTV and Blizzard. He says, "More interest is generated when there is competition, not a monopoly. In order to grow one needs colleagues and competitors," and points out that more competitions will drive players to work harder, and that will be to their benefit. With LoL picking up steam , Mr. Hwang alludes that either GomTV or Blizzard will need to make changes in order to stay competitive.
That article is more about LoL than SC2. Actually, from what I know GOM and OGN have a pretty good relationship. OGN already casted the WC that was held in busan. The problem, I think, is going to be kespa. I honestly am not sure how they will respond to having to work with Gretech.
On January 23 2012 20:03 InternalSync wrote: If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
You can say goodbye to the foreign scene
No way in hell are the BW teams going to let some white guy train with them.
They are ok with it now because they have money, but BW teams have more money than foreign teams. And since they cant speak korean they are of absolute no use to them
CJ and Estro both let Idra train with them even without winning a Courage. One of the main reasons that only three foreigners in the past, what, four years (Nony, Idra and Ret) went to Korea to train with a team is because the foreign scene was miles, and I mean MILES, behind the Korean scene and there really was no use for foreigners in their house. The gap was so large that there really was no point to have any foreigner in your house when even your B-team could crush the guy.
I don't think any Korean team, Brood War or SC2, would give a shit if a guy is white or Korean if their skill is on par with the rest of the team and the player is marketable.
Agreed. Many of the sc2 foreigners can easily beat many of the b-teamers and even handle some on the main line with relative ease. This obviously wasn't the case with BW XD.
Not to mention, if what they said in the internet is correct and the BW teams are after the lower tier players, then that only ups the chances of foreigners getting into that slot.
On January 23 2012 20:43 StatorFlux wrote: There exist a yet untranslated article from Thisisgame here where OGN says that they want to pick up SC2 and that they would like to expand into the foreign market. So SC2 may not become entirely Korean after all.
Mr. Hwang mentions that he would very much like to pursue a StarCraft 2 league, but that they cannot proceed due to the exclusivity deal between GomTV and Blizzard. He says, "More interest is generated when there is competition, not a monopoly. In order to grow one needs colleagues and competitors," and points out that more competitions will drive players to work harder, and that will be to their benefit. With LoL picking up steam [in Korea, much of the rest of the article was about OGN starting their LoL league], Mr. Hwang alludes that either GomTV or Blizzard will need to make changes in order to stay competitive.
It sounds like these exclusive broadcasting rights weren't a very good idea. It's so annoying how much better Riot is than Blizzard at managing this e-sports stuff.
Now that the BW scene is pretty much dead, and Sc2 is an inferior e-sport to LoL (due to Blizzard's own actions) and Dota2 getting more viewers than LoL before it was even released, it seems that the entire e-sports farce was a cash cow type low-risk high reward investment for Blizzard. I don't see how Sc2 will stand a chance against Dota2, especially with the inevitable frustration of early-HotS imbalance on the horizon.
The entire gaming industry is hemorrhaging money. Even Activision-Blizzard isn't doing well (in before fan boys cry that starcraft 2 is successful). I'm a gamer, and I think the current video game model is going to be dead if the companies don't stop looking at short term profits instead of looking at the horrid trend that's happening. Plenty of gamers I know have already moved onto gambling or even sports clubs for crying out loud.
I've seen the future of gaming, and it's Farmville and Angry Birds. I think e-sports is the only thing that can prevent the gaming demographics from becoming all young children and middle aged housewives/husbands.
I just wish there was something we could do to make Blizzard change their minds about the way they approach e-sports. Letters don't seem to be of any effect, especially since they have stated that they won't fund their e-sports scene like riot is doing. I love dota2 and valve, but to be honest, I think Acti-Blizz is the only company with coffers deep enough to challenge the new tablet/phone gaming industry and the console DLC-based industry with an e-sport.
On January 23 2012 20:03 InternalSync wrote: If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
You can say goodbye to the foreign scene
No way in hell are the BW teams going to let some white guy train with them.
They are ok with it now because they have money, but BW teams have more money than foreign teams. And since they cant speak korean they are of absolute no use to them
CJ and Estro both let Idra train with them even without winning a Courage. One of the main reasons that only three foreigners in the past, what, four years (Nony, Idra and Ret) went to Korea to train with a team is because the foreign scene was miles, and I mean MILES, behind the Korean scene and there really was no use for foreigners in their house. The gap was so large that there really was no point to have any foreigner in your house when even your B-team could crush the guy.
I don't think any Korean team, Brood War or SC2, would give a shit if a guy is white or Korean if their skill is on par with the rest of the team and the player is marketable.
Agreed. Many of the sc2 foreigners can easily beat many of the b-teamers and even handle some on the main line with relative ease. This obviously wasn't the case with BW XD.
Not to mention, if what they said in the internet is correct and the BW teams are after the lower tier players, then that only ups the chances of foreigners getting into that slot.
No it doesnt. Why would they pick up low tier foreigners for their team. They arent good and they cant speak Korean. If they want players to get better they should be able to communicate with each other which they cant because of language barrier. Also foreigners seem to have a problem with team house environments and want to go back home asap
A few things i think that needs to be cleared up... Things can get lost during translation.
1) Nestea never said that one of the IM players was sent to the BW team. He just said that one player did go (not sure which team or which playe).
2) As things stand right now, if BW scene switch to SC2 right now, a lot of current SC2 teams are going to be in trouble. They will just be picked apart by BW teams. That's why coach Won was so adocative toward having a SC2 association in that article. There is still time, but the current SC2 scene is very vulnerable especially when there is a large injection of unregulated cash thrown into it. Ultimately, I think that some teams will have to go when the twine comes even with the association established.
3) it's important to note that GOMTV has to negotiate with KeSPA, not OGN. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the deal between Blizzard and Gretech was for the right to host SC2 related tourneys and matches, not about who can broadcast it. When coach Won is talking about his concerns over how current SC2 teams may become the after thought, he is basically telling GOM that they cannot fuck it up when they negotiate with kespa.
On January 23 2012 20:52 Full.tilt wrote: Wouldn't be surprised at all if they (current BW organisations) started up their own tourneys/leagues. Not sure I'd want (from a managers pov) a hugely popular BW pro being thrown into the unknown where it could negatively effect his popularity and standing within esports and therefore his sponsors etc. May as well start a new league where all BW pro's start to play SC2 from a relatively equal footing.
They can just start a tourney of their own. A deal would have to be made with Gretech first. That's why coach Won said that current SC2 teams should be allowed to participate in their tourney if BW teams are allowed to in GSL or GSTL. These things would have to be worked out during the negotiation between Gretech and KeSPA.
On January 23 2012 17:42 Fionn wrote: Maybe have the GSTL champions face the Proleague champions in a Super Bowl-like event. Would probably make a lot of cash.
This is the best and most interesting idea to come out of this thread imo.
Look at the major US sports leagues. Most of them started as 2 separate leagues, eventually joining into a huge league to determine the best of the best. I believe this would be a huge step in creating an all-encompasing sc2 league in Korea.
While I'm not saying what would work for America would work for everyone, I am saying that it has proven successful in the past, so I think it would be a very good experiment for a year or so, and would love to see it.
The old league and the new league, determining their champions, and having those champions face off. Aside from the logistical nightmare that a regular season would entail, would be awesome to see.
Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
On January 23 2012 20:14 Ender985 wrote: However I think it has already been proven that BW skill does not directly correlate to SC2 skill, look at ForGG for a recent example of someone that was supposed to one-handedly win the GSL and got owned fast instead, despite his great micro and innovative strategies.
At the time he moved, forGG was a washed up brood war player with barely over 50% win ratio and more on a level of a b-teamer. He was so bad that ACE Reach beat him twice, and Reach was horrible by then.
Tbh, all this forGG hype is made up by you hopeless SC2 fans because you desperately want a good bw player to switch to show that your game is oh-so-more-awesome-then-brood-war. Too bad forGG wasn't nowhere near those expectations.
Please tell me you are joking. You are saying the sc2 fans were hyping up forGG, really now?
Yeah, I am joking. I was actually the one saying how awesome he is and how he will increase the quality of sc2 talent pool, and bandwagoning in general.
I was also sarcastic when I wrote the above two sentences.
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
On January 23 2012 17:42 Fionn wrote: I think this could be fun. Maybe have the GSTL champions face the Proleague champions in a Super Bowl-like event. Would probably make a lot of cash.
i love this idea. this would be so intense. people like me who are huge into sc2 and only played some games in scbw rooting for "our" stars while the "oldschool bw players" root for their legends.
I'd be interested in how the fanbase reacts if one (or more) of the big 3 (Flash, JD, Bisu) switched race coming to SC2. E.g. Flash playing zerg, would you still be a fan?
On January 23 2012 20:03 InternalSync wrote: If some of Chae's fears come to fruition, the only way they would compete with Kespa is to unite the foreign with the existing Korean SC2 scene. But I wonder what would happen to the foreign scene if the Korean BW and SC2 scene unite under one organization, or at least work closely together.
You can say goodbye to the foreign scene
No way in hell are the BW teams going to let some white guy train with them.
They are ok with it now because they have money, but BW teams have more money than foreign teams. And since they cant speak korean they are of absolute no use to them
CJ and Estro both let Idra train with them even without winning a Courage. One of the main reasons that only three foreigners in the past, what, four years (Nony, Idra and Ret) went to Korea to train with a team is because the foreign scene was miles, and I mean MILES, behind the Korean scene and there really was no use for foreigners in their house. The gap was so large that there really was no point to have any foreigner in your house when even your B-team could crush the guy.
I don't think any Korean team, Brood War or SC2, would give a shit if a guy is white or Korean if their skill is on par with the rest of the team and the player is marketable.
Agreed. Many of the sc2 foreigners can easily beat many of the b-teamers and even handle some on the main line with relative ease. This obviously wasn't the case with BW XD.
Not to mention, if what they said in the internet is correct and the BW teams are after the lower tier players, then that only ups the chances of foreigners getting into that slot.
No it doesnt. Why would they pick up low tier foreigners for their team. They arent good and they cant speak Korean. If they want players to get better they should be able to communicate with each other which they cant because of language barrier. Also foreigners seem to have a problem with team house environments and want to go back home asap
Yeah that's true. There is the language barrier and teamhouse thing. But, they did it in BW, and there are quite a few foreigners now who are more than willing to do the whole teamhouse experience (the slayeres-eg, quantic-st thing etc.)
Many are skilled tthough, maybe not the next MVP, but they're certainly capable of making a splash. At the very least, there as good or better than B-teamers.
Hmmm, reaaaally interesting. This is the sort of problems that come when there is no strong organization for SC2 players. It is indeed in BW teams' interests to seclude GOM and the current SC2 pros and start a completely new tournament, and that would suck pretty hard :/
What I don't necessarily agree with any of these people saying is their opinions on the BW "issues." Sure the BW teams with more money can offer more money to teams and can influence players to switch teams. However, that's not something just based on BW teams. Starcraft teams have to worry about switching teams no matter if from BW or SC2. These two games should not be thought of as rivals, or like the interview revealed, it would ruin a lot of the Starcraft scene. If and when BW pros join Starcraft it should be treated as any other player playing SC2. The new players need to be good to gain respect and regardless of his/her background the new player should be treated as any other SC2 player as of now. Of course if BW teams attempt to create different leagues opposing GSL then something should be changed but as long as the BW and SC2 scenes can work together to create a better environment for STARCRAFT in and of itself, the idea of new players is great. Look at what happened with ForGG. The hype of him was immense when he got into Code S after one season. The hype is good for e-sports. Bring on the new BW players and let the best StarCraft player win!!
Basically the problem with BW teams switching over is they have so much funding compared to the current SC2 scene, they can literally have their own league and exclude any of the current SC2 teams from it (some BW fans/teams see SC2 players as a joke because of their poor performance back in BW).
It's up to all the current SC2 players to step up their game and make sure they are better than all the BW pros who will be switching over eventually. People can say, "Oh what about Fin? He failed in Code S", well he breezed through Code A easily, What happens when all the A-teamers switch? The current low tier players will have no chance at an income(from tournaments) and be forced to sell themselves out to BW teams.
What I think we might see if SC2 teams merging with BW teams even though I don't see the need for BW teams to do so.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
On January 23 2012 21:32 Monsen wrote: I'd be interested in how the fanbase reacts if one (or more) of the big 3 (Flash, JD, Bisu) switched race coming to SC2. E.g. Flash playing zerg, would you still be a fan?
Lol, I really can't see this happening, unless he thinks Thors are ugly..
I fail to see how all this "protectionism" helps the players in any way. It only seems to protect teams from having to pay the players, decent salaries. Transfers are always good. They show the esport is alive and the money is flowing.
And if bw players switching take money away from current sc2 pros, then so be fucking it, they deserve it better!
Don't fix what is not broken. Give free enterprise a chance you marxist/stastist nuts!
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
Does this mean that it is Gretech who owns all rights and is the one OGN/KeSPA has to negotiate with? Also, does Gretech have the rights up to May 2013?
There is an obvious risk that Gretech/GOM tries to block a rivaling Starcraft-league, be it BW (already tried/did) or SC2, since it could be perceived as a threat to their market position. What speaks against that scenario is of course the money Gretech would get from licensing as well as a chance to get more fans into the viewer base.
Worst case: deadlock Best case: 50% cooperation + 50% competition.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
Most of the western scene dont know anything about KeSPA and just hate it because its the cool thing to do!
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
OGN destroy GOM on every aspect in production value.
On January 23 2012 21:32 Monsen wrote: I'd be interested in how the fanbase reacts if one (or more) of the big 3 (Flash, JD, Bisu) switched race coming to SC2. E.g. Flash playing zerg, would you still be a fan?
Terran in BW = Terran in SC2 in many ways, I don't see why he would switch.
Blizzard did a good job on keeping the race philosophies and strengths/weaknesses intact in SC2.
Bisu's PvZ style could work very well in SC2 with a few adjustments.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
Most of the western scene dont know anything about KeSPA and just hate it because its the cool thing to do!
Um, didn't Idra live there for like 3 years? I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
Most of the western scene dont know anything about KeSPA and just hate it because its the cool thing to do!
Um, didn't Idra live there for like 3 years? I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
KeSPA has its own sets of... problems. They're no angels. And they're not the most professional of organizations either.
But a lot of the shit that they get is completely unjustified (like the entire IP rights debate). But there's a ton of reasons to fling shit at them for, which is why everyone looks at KeSPA and see EVERYTHING they do as terrible. But just remember not everything they do is terrible and being out in the public spotlight sucks since things you do/say often get misinterpreted
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
Blizzard can't do shit about it. It's all GOM at this point since GOM has that exclusive contract.
On January 23 2012 22:08 ElPeque.fogata wrote: WTF.
I fail to see how all this "protectionism" helps the players in any way. It only seems to protect teams from having to pay the players, decent salaries. Transfers are always good. They show the esport is alive and the money is flowing.
And if bw players switching take money away from current sc2 pros, then so be fucking it, they deserve it better!
Don't fix what is not broken. Give free enterprise a chance you marxist/stastist nuts!
The problem they're discussing in the interview isn't so much about foreigners but about current korean pro teams switching to sc2 and basically forcing their way with their money. Imagine if a player like Flash switched to SC2, it's unlikely that he'd be on a team such as oGs instead KT would just invest in their own SC2 team. That's where the problems arise. All these BW teams switching inflates the amount of teams in the GSTL but shouldn't the teams who were there first be the ones to reap the rewards? Such as IM, Prime, Slayers. Those teams aren't involved in BW (and not taking anything from them) so why should bw teams be allowed to simply walk in and force their way in regards to SC2. This not only affects the teams and players but the people who work at GOM.
Well i guess they do it for more and competition. If they still love Starcraft which i bet they do then moving to starcraft 2 is a good step for their career.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
Most of the western scene dont know anything about KeSPA and just hate it because its the cool thing to do!
Um, didn't Idra live there for like 3 years? I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
KeSPA has its own sets of... problems. They're no angels. And they're not the most professional of organizations either.
But a lot of the shit that they get is completely unjustified (like the entire IP rights debate). But there's a ton of reasons to fling shit at them for, which is why everyone looks at KeSPA and see EVERYTHING they do as terrible. But just remember not everything they do is terrible and being out in the public spotlight sucks since things you do/say often get misinterpreted
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
Blizzard can't do shit about it. It's all GOM at this point since GOM has that exclusive contract.
And that's what's really irking me about Blizzard. It's their own damn game, they should put their foot down and at least use the rightful power that they have as the CREATORS of the game. Instead they don't get involved unless their earning power gets threatened. Pretty sad.
I am going to be so intensely, royally pissed off if KESPA enters and starts s hitting all over the SC2 scene. Losing KESPA was the BEST part about moving on from brood war.
And all of this talk is pretty new perspective for me and it is quite unsettling =\
On January 23 2012 23:01 whereismymind wrote: Do you think savior can compete in sc2?
Not in Korea for sure
I'm willing to bet that he's not just banned in Korea. He'll get banned in foreign events quite simply because foreign organizers are afraid to receive community backlash for accepting him. Savior's practically a persona non grata in the whole of esports.
What i like about GOM TV is that anyone can try to qualify for Code A. I dont see any problems if BW pros come to SC2, if they are better than current SC2 players, then we will see better games. The only thing that is important is the scene should remain open for anyone (if you are good enough).
On January 23 2012 23:01 whereismymind wrote: Do you think savior can compete in sc2?
Not in Korea for sure
I'm willing to bet that he's not just banned in Korea. He'll get banned in foreign events quite simply because foreign organizers are afraid to receive community backlash for accepting him. Savior's practically a persona non grata in the whole of esports.
Agreed. Inviting SaviOr to your tournament is one way to hand out pitchforks to Reddit.
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
OGN destroy GOM on every aspect in production value.
Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
OGN destroy GOM on every aspect in production value.
Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
how are they going to do this? Is Gom going to break their fingers ? I don't understand this at all.. And I think they will need to expand the GSTL if there are more teams, otherwise it would be unfair. Regardless of the teams.
I wouldn't mind as long as I can see the best players play. While it would suck if the established SC2 teams got muscled out, I want to see the highest level of competition possible in SC2, and if that means BW teams coming in and taking over, so be it.
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
OGN destroy GOM on every aspect in production value.
Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
i do agree the bw teams might kill these sc2 teams financially. whats stopping them to? because at the end of the day players like MC want a salary and these sc2 teams need to find sponsors to compete with BW teams or they will just buy out these players. I do hope they come to an agreement and have like 2 major tournaments running like OSL and MSL which any player/team good enough will be able to compete in.
I think this actually will help SC2 viewers grow though when big names like stork , jaedong, bisu, flash play sc2.
This idea that the bw teams might just have their own kespa events and exclude the current sc2 teams and their players - it seems like it would be awful. It would be a big blow to the sc2 scene outside Korea, IMO, because it would go back towards the bw model where there's very little interaction between foreign and Korean players and scenes. However, it actually seems plausible that kespa would try to do something like that, sorbet could try and keep control.
On January 23 2012 19:14 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I for one welcome our new KeSPA overlords
Finally some professionalism.
There is a big reason why most of the westerner scene and in particular, Idra dislike anything that has the name KeSPA on it, and it's definitely not Professionalism.
Most of the western scene dont know anything about KeSPA and just hate it because its the cool thing to do!
Um, didn't Idra live there for like 3 years? I'm pretty sure he knows what he's talking about.
KeSPA has its own sets of... problems. They're no angels. And they're not the most professional of organizations either.
But a lot of the shit that they get is completely unjustified (like the entire IP rights debate). But there's a ton of reasons to fling shit at them for, which is why everyone looks at KeSPA and see EVERYTHING they do as terrible. But just remember not everything they do is terrible and being out in the public spotlight sucks since things you do/say often get misinterpreted
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
Blizzard can't do shit about it. It's all GOM at this point since GOM has that exclusive contract.
Indeed and speak for yourselves instead of someone else.
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
Why would they not? It's not like KeSPA's money is worth less then Gretech's. Speaking of which, KeSPA and the teams have bigger sponsors and more money at their disposal.
Anyway, you can say all you want about KeSPA, but I'd rather have them give it a try then watch GOM organised events any longer.
OGN destroy GOM on every aspect in production value.
Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
GOM has no HD stream
the korean stream looks very nice. But i dont know if its hd
On January 23 2012 17:15 Itsmedudeman wrote: Oh shit? hints at Happy joining a foreign team??
If a player as good as happy cannot make a decent living, then I can't blame him for wanting to go to a foreign team for more cash and opportunities.
Yeah. If Happy played in foreign tournaments, he would never lose a TvZ again. Would have to work on his TvP though, there are lots of good foreign Protoss.
I guess it's not really a shocker that they're switching over, should be interesting... sad for BW though D:. I wonder if some of these guys will go back to their old teams, could have some serious drama going on soon O.o
Edit:
On January 23 2012 23:33 canikizu wrote: Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
They have the best commentators though; those guys know how to bring the excitement even if it's in a language you can't understand!
On January 24 2012 00:12 a9arnn wrote: I guess it's not really a shocker that they're switching over, should be interesting... sad for BW though D:. I wonder if some of these guys will go back to their old teams, could have some serious drama going on soon O.o
On January 23 2012 23:33 canikizu wrote: Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
They have the best commentators though; those guys know how to bring the excitement even if it's in a language you can't understand!
Well isn't that the same for the gom casters? from those spotlight vids they sure sound hyped up as hell. Unless ofc you actually watch the korean stream somehow.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
It means that they hope that they will be able to negotiate so that BW teams can play in the GSL and that the GSL teams can play in BW's SC2 league.
This is the part I don't get. "bw's sc2 league." How does that work when gom has full broadcasting rights? It seems like gom can basically tell them they do things goms way or they don't get to do SC2 at all. Now obviously gom doesn't want to exclude them, but I think if kespa was to start an SC2 league it would be on GOMs terms, or it would be shut down.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
It means that they hope that they will be able to negotiate so that BW teams can play in the GSL and that the GSL teams can play in BW's SC2 league.
This is the part I don't get. "bw's sc2 league." How does that work when gom has full broadcasting rights? It seems like gom can basically tell them they do things goms way or they don't get to do SC2 at all. Now obviously gom doesn't want to exclude them, but I think if kespa was to start an SC2 league it would be on GOMs terms, or it would be shut down.
Don't that depend on what kind of deal gom have with blizzard? They can't have full broadcasting rights unlimited into the future. If Kespa or whomever throws enough money towards blizzard anything is possible probably.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
It means that they hope that they will be able to negotiate so that BW teams can play in the GSL and that the GSL teams can play in BW's SC2 league.
This is the part I don't get. "bw's sc2 league." How does that work when gom has full broadcasting rights? It seems like gom can basically tell them they do things goms way or they don't get to do SC2 at all. Now obviously gom doesn't want to exclude them, but I think if kespa was to start an SC2 league it would be on GOMs terms, or it would be shut down.
Don't that depend on what kind of deal gom have with blizzard? They can't have full broadcasting rights unlimited into the future. If Kespa or whomever throws enough money towards blizzard anything is possible probably.
That's true, I believe (not 100% sure) that goms exclusive rights end sometime in 2013, and what happens from there no one really knows.
On January 23 2012 18:01 DreamOen wrote: THe other thing behind it , is that , the korean audience, would watch it more, if there are BW teams involved. As well as myself XD. And, too much egoism right here, everyone wants to protect their own interests besides let e-sports grow overall in south korea. Why? Because gom , obviusly is just saying that they are worry for the teams, but in reality, they are worried for their own channel only.
The current teams have grown with gom and made Gsl what it is today. Gom isn't just saying they are worried, they are actually worried. They obviously are more connected to current sc2 teams than up and coming Bw teams.
I want to see the scene grow in Korea, but I don't want to see the foreign scene die off completely because of it. I'm thinking in 2013 we will be seeing alot of familiar faces playing LoL or Dota2. If foreigner pro's are serious about this game and want to make a living off of it they are going to need to commit fully to Korea.
As a manager of a much smaller team with Korean players on it, I am very worried about the Brood War switch. I've heard when it's rumored to be coming, and a pair of my players have even been approached by Brood War teams. Thankfully they stayed behind out of loyalty to the team and whatnot, but it could have just as easily gone the other way with my team losing two of our best players.
While I think Brood War teams switching would drive some insane attention to the Korean SC2 market, I can't help but think it might also obliterate what we know as the current dynamic of SC2 worldwide.
Can't wait to see what BW pros are capable of with SC2. I don't believe the mechanical skill ceiling has been reached in SC2 despite how often it is said that SC2 is much easier than BW mechanically. I do think it's safe to say that in the current state of Wings of Liberty, every BW pro would be wise to switch to Terran. Terran has the potential to be incredibly OP with flawless micro. The units are just too good.
haha would be funny bw teams buy sc2 pros and seclude themself, foreigner teams will buy the top bw koreans that have switched. Wonder who would win the game of money at the end. In any case this sounds like something i am not really looking forward to. Guess i have to watch korean commentating in sc2 soon if i want to see koreans xD.
On January 24 2012 01:13 FeyFey wrote: haha would be funny bw teams buy sc2 pros and seclude themself, foreigner teams will buy the top bw koreans that have switched. Wonder who would win the game of money at the end. In any case this sounds like something i am not really looking forward to. Sounds like i have to watch korean commentating in sc2 soon if i want to see koreans xD.
BW progamming teams have more money than 99% of the foreigner teams
On January 23 2012 21:25 resilve wrote: Surely what matters is if Blizzard will license a league other than GOM?
The whole point with sc2 is that you cant just start your own league like BW, but you need blizzard's contract and permission to go ahead. Surely any BW teams that come over will have to operate within the framework Blizz + GOM has in korea? which is the GSL as the only league and the GSTL as the only team league. I dont see how Kespa could re-create their BW situation.
Blizzard surely will. There's no reason not to. Theoreticaly Kespa could have their own private circle. They already have everything they need and it's not forbidden to basicaly have an invite only system for their tournament.
The situation is a bit different this time for OGN. They don't have to rely on Kespa because there are enough established Teams & Players in terms of skill with sponsors who would gladly apear on TV. That means OGN has more pull and could be more independent, if they wanted to. Well there is still CJ that might intervene, but anyway, at least Samsung could profit from a team with players that travel.
More money is good. Players should not just be bountyhunters.
Couldn't they have interviewed an actually struggling midlevel code A/S player about the income inequality thing? Seems kind of ironic to ask Nestea about the problem with lack of player salaries.
Is the article implying that the BW pro teams could start their own league? It seems like the debate is whither or not they'll join the GSL, not when and if they should be allowed in.
And good for Nestea not giving the BW teams the all advice they want. That sort of ticks me off. "Hey, you used to be a jobber for us, give us all your builds and notes so when we come over we can immediately take over your tournament."
On January 24 2012 00:12 a9arnn wrote: I guess it's not really a shocker that they're switching over, should be interesting... sad for BW though D:. I wonder if some of these guys will go back to their old teams, could have some serious drama going on soon O.o
On January 23 2012 23:33 canikizu wrote: Yeah I love OGN's HD stream and English cast and how they try to reach out to the foreign scene.
They have the best commentators though; those guys know how to bring the excitement even if it's in a language you can't understand!
I strongly disagree since they sound exactly the same during a game deciding fight as they do when a drone is being built... That is not hyping up the game that is destroying my interest in the game
On January 24 2012 01:02 VirgilSC2 wrote: As a manager of a much smaller team with Korean players on it, I am very worried about the Brood War switch. I've heard when it's rumored to be coming, and a pair of my players have even been approached by Brood War teams. Thankfully they stayed behind out of loyalty to the team and whatnot, but it could have just as easily gone the other way with my team losing two of our best players.
While I think Brood War teams switching would drive some insane attention to the Korean SC2 market, I can't help but think it might also obliterate what we know as the current dynamic of SC2 worldwide.
This would lead me to believe BW teams are not putting all their eggs in one basket and instead just testing the waters. If S Class BW players are going to switch, then no reason for BW teams to reach out to SC2 teams for players. Seems like the split SC2/BW teams that were rumored few months ago is the most likely outcome.
While I really want SC2 to grow in Korea, I hope this doesn't hurt the international SC2 scene that I've come to love over the past year. I think the importaint thing to remember is that while we need a KeSPA like group it can't be anything like KeSPA because the SC2 scene is way different than the BW scene is there. Whatever it is, it needs to work with what we have now and help that grow. Not fight againt it, trying to make a new sytem. Anyway, I hope this all goes well in the future.
i dont know about you guys, but im personally interested in who the player is that a BW pro team took on for SC2. That's quite a landmark in my opinion
I don't think we need to get all worried about BW teams obliterating the current SC2 scene. Sure they are reaching out to some SC2 players here and there, but that's only natural since it would be valuable for them to have someone who is knowledgable about SC2 for in-house training purposes. That's probably all they need them for, meaning they wouldn't be buying out SC2 players en masse.
Mr. Chae> Our stance is that there is no problem as long as current SC2 players perform better than BW pros when they switch.
how are they going to do this? Is Gom going to break their fingers ? I don't understand this at all.. And I think they will need to expand the GSTL if there are more teams, otherwise it would be unfair. Regardless of the teams.
He's basically saying to the current SC2 pros "practice hard and don't get dominated".
On January 23 2012 23:52 Chaggi wrote: I wouldn't mind as long as I can see the best players play. While it would suck if the established SC2 teams got muscled out, I want to see the highest level of competition possible in SC2, and if that means BW teams coming in and taking over, so be it.
Totally agree. It seems to me that maybe OGN could add a SC2 divison to PL, much like SF2/BW. I also find it great that the current BW teams are seeking out the bottom tier SC2 pros, give them a year of BW-esque practice and Kespa the ability to create new maps and you'll have an awesome competitive scene, even more than now.
It kinda sucks for the foreign scene, though. If the big teams/players switch to SC2, the skill gap will grow exponentially, just because they'll have way better practice regimes. Fortunately, as the above poster said, I'm willing to let go of everything in the current SC2 scene if that means we get to see the absolute highest level of competition
I would LOVE to see A teamers from BW teams split up into BW and SC2 divisions. Seriously it has to be extremely heart-breaking if you are one of the best in practice games and only have a 25% chance to play in team games for KT, for instance. SC2 would provide a better chance whilst remaining in the team.
The current top tier SC2 (Code S) pros would have some time to adapt until BW pros are able to compete with them. Well, two seasons.
It will be interesting to see for sure. As it is now, SC2 is shitty in Korea but big elsewhere, the exact opposite of BW. If they plan to move to SC2 they're going to have to appeal to the foreign fan base to make it profitable in Korea which means more English casters, English stream/site etc. The one thing GOM has going for them is how set they are with the foreign audience.
IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
On January 23 2012 17:04 nath wrote: i wish more money was pumped into korean sc2 teams; considering the fact that they still completely dominate foreign teams in practice regimen and results, they deserve it and it would prevent bw teams from overtaking when they switch.
however i wouldnt mind sc2 teams merging with bw teams that are switching over. slayers + SKT anyone??? LOL.
i dont think boxer want give up his own EPIC team ^^ even for SKT
but imagine a SKT1 vs SLAYERS clanwar DRAMA INCOMING and then yellow decide to start for "real" and play for skt hrhr
also i think bw pros have to learn and be as good as it needs to play in sc2 and as long they not win well ... no extra league for them they need train ^^ current sc2 pros are obviously way better right now
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
Nah KeSPA and Bliizard are on good terms(officially), they came to an agreement regarding the IP rights. Now when they recognize Blizzard's rights, Blizzard has no reason to let GOM keep their exclusive rights.
KeSPA would be great for SC2 IF they would reach out and cooperate with GOM, existing SC2 teams and the foreign scene. It's very possible they will but given past events it's possible they just go have their own race as well. Time will tell.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
Blizzard seems to be making efforts in trying to negotiate with KeSPA, though. I remember seeing a reference to that in the 'Reponsibilites' section of one of the jobs they were offering. It's gone now but it went like this:
Lead relationships and shape agenda with the Korean eSports (e.g., KESPA), and related organizations (e.g., broadcasting partners), and generate new ...
From Google Cache.
People give KeSPA too much shit, the BW scene would still be a bunch of korean teenagers wasting their lifes in PC Bangs if it wasn't for them.
On January 24 2012 02:10 Kergy wrote: It kinda sucks for the foreign scene, though. If the big teams/players switch to SC2, the skill gap will grow exponentially, just because they'll have way better practice regimes. Fortunately, as the above poster said, I'm willing to let go of everything in the current SC2 scene if that means we get to see the absolute highest level of competition
I don't think the switch itself is a bad thing for the foreign scene. It's just that the foreigners bad (work) mentality will show even more and that has the potential to be really harmfull. The scene itself has the potential to persist, because quite a lot of pros in EU and NA can make a living of their salary. So they should theoretically be able to absolve the same practiceschedules as Koreans(especially BW pros). If the foreign scene fades away regardless of its resources, I really can't be sad about it, because then foreigners destroyed it by themselfs.
On January 24 2012 02:10 Kergy wrote: It kinda sucks for the foreign scene, though. If the big teams/players switch to SC2, the skill gap will grow exponentially, just because they'll have way better practice regimes. Fortunately, as the above poster said, I'm willing to let go of everything in the current SC2 scene if that means we get to see the absolute highest level of competition
I don't think the switch itself is a bad thing for the foreign scene. It's just that the foreigners bad (work) mentality will show even more and that has the potential to be really harmfull. The scene itself has the potential to persist, because quite a lot of pros in EU and NA can make a living of their salary. So they should theoretically be able to absolve the same practiceschedules as Koreans(especially BW pros). If the foreign scene fades away regardless of its resources, I really can't be sad about it, because then foreigners destroyed it by themselfs.
Foreigner pros have way worse practice options than Koreans. Give foreigners the chance to play on Korea without 500 pings and we'll see so much better foreigners representations. Imagine Kas laddering on KR instead of EU for instance (one of the known mass laddering people in the foreign scene that comes to my mind). He'd be infinitely better with the same time spent. It's difficult to keep up when your environment is so inferior to that of Koreans.
This will probably spell the death for both games. The SC2 foreigner scene will get owned hard. People will leave to other games like LOL or DOTA2. Only the hardcore SC2 fans will remain, willing to watch Koreans vs Koreans. On the other hand, in Korea, SC2 isn't as popular. I doubt fangirls will want to watch a game that doesn't interest them, just to see TBLS. Remember the BoxeR/Yellow match.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Altough I don't like the SC2 scene much, I'd rather want to see them both coexisting than cannibalizing eachother.
On January 24 2012 02:10 Kergy wrote: It kinda sucks for the foreign scene, though. If the big teams/players switch to SC2, the skill gap will grow exponentially, just because they'll have way better practice regimes. Fortunately, as the above poster said, I'm willing to let go of everything in the current SC2 scene if that means we get to see the absolute highest level of competition
I don't think the switch itself is a bad thing for the foreign scene. It's just that the foreigners bad (work) mentality will show even more and that has the potential to be really harmfull. The scene itself has the potential to persist, because quite a lot of pros in EU and NA can make a living of their salary. So they should theoretically be able to absolve the same practiceschedules as Koreans(especially BW pros). If the foreign scene fades away regardless of its resources, I really can't be sad about it, because then foreigners destroyed it by themselfs.
Foreigner pros have way worse practice options than Koreans. Give foreigners the chance to play on Korea without 500 pings and we'll see so much better foreigners representations. Imagine Kas laddering on KR instead of EU for instance (one of the known mass laddering people in the foreign scene that comes to my mind). He'd be infinitely better with the same time spent. It's difficult to keep up when your environment is so inferior to that of Koreans.
The BW teams will sure as hell not use ladder as practice if they switch, making everyone else copy their hardcore in-house training model if they want to stay competitive, thus making ladder (even the KR one) an even worse option for practice just because the pros won't be there anymore.
On January 24 2012 01:54 Shalaiyn wrote: Nestea got offers to join foreign teams. €1000 on that team being EG
So what if you're running a business, and you see a potential investment that could garner you thousands of extra income, would you not try to act upon it?
In regards to the OP, I'm quite surprised that people are actually scared of BW pros switching just because they have more money to buy players. I never actually thought about it that way. It's a realistic threat though since, as the interview says, BW teams have much more money. NesTea explains it so well in the opening question about players and their income, it's hard to be a pro in SC2 when you're not on a foreign team, so that's why so many Koreans look to join foreign teams so they can actually earn a living.
It's an eye opening interview on the inside workings of teams and their thoughts. I expect we'll see every Korean team "partner" with foreign teams for the extra income and to actually be able to contract their players so they can't be "bought" so easily from the BW teams.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
No BW player who officially transitions in April will be better than MVP, MMA, Nestea, and the other premier players. That being said, I'd imagine their teams overall will be better than many of the current SC2 teams. I hope BW teams decide to cooperate with GOM/GSL, as it opens up a nice revenue stream for them. There's no reason GOM and OGN cannot work together on a schedule, allow cooperation, and ultimately make money together.
That being said, if OGN and BW teams don't want to cooperate, GOM should at least be ready to put up a fight. I think it would be a good idea for GOM to further ally itself with foreigner leagues, teams, and tournaments. There should be some type of player associations able to work together. For instance, if BW/OGN doesn't cooperate with GOM there's no reason MLG should pay for their teams to compete in foreign tournaments, even if they win qualifiers. So if Flash wants to compete in MLG, KT should pay all the expenses. GOM certainly makes a lot of money thanks to foreigner interest, and this could further expand if the leagues decided to work more closely together. Including IPL and even NASL, perhaps.
This isn't without precedent, as it would most likely look like the AFL/NFL of the 1960s in some ways; of course, both wound up merging into one NFL after nine years of division.
I wonder what Artosis/Tasteless would do if GOM doesn't put up a decent fight and BW teams/OGN ostracize their players
On January 24 2012 01:00 magnaflow wrote: I'm scared.
I want to see the scene grow in Korea, but I don't want to see the foreign scene die off completely because of it. I'm thinking in 2013 we will be seeing alot of familiar faces playing LoL or Dota2. If foreigner pro's are serious about this game and want to make a living off of it they are going to need to commit fully to Korea.
I feel the same way ... I mean, the best SC2 players will get poached by BW teams. The foreign scene will basically collapse; top koreans won't fly out to MLG / IEM / etc., foreign players probably won't be able to live in BW team houses (as the teams already have plenty of cash). IdrA/HuK/Nani/etc will go back to being B-team level (though certainly somewhat better than they were in BW, relatively) ... I just wonder if people will still loyally watch GSLs if the worst players are competing? If I have the option of watching an OS2L with Flash/Jaedong (and Nestea/MVP, after they were poached by KT or whatever) or a GSL with a bunch of code-A-caliber koreans and foreigners? ... I mean, I love Tastosis, but not THAT much.
2012-13 will be all about Dota2, for the foreign scene; maybe a couple foreigners will move to Korea full-time and end up on the A-team of some BW/SC2 super-team, but I dunno. I'm guessing many foreign players will just switch to LoL or Dota2.
On January 24 2012 03:39 Nuclease wrote: If BW teams start taking over, I will have to stop watching. I cannot watch corporate gaming teams take over SC2. We have to fight that!
TIG> Does GOMTV have any plans? Is it possible to do anything about this? You have the sole contract with the Blizzard and have the most SC2 players with GSL and GSTL.
This is the part that is interesting to me. It is likely just my ignorance, but if GOMTV has the sole contract with Blizzard, why are people worried about some other entity starting up an SC2 league and discluding the current SC2 scene. Or will this other entity just disregard GOMTV's exclusive rights?
Thats all gomtv has tho. The bw leagues have more money, and the bw teams have more money. Money can eventually defeat eveything. I just don't want GSL to go away. I like its production and stuff. Maybe they can drop GSTL and give it to to the other league or (id prefer this one) do some sort of merger sothat gomtv handles sc2 and ogn(i think?) handles scbw stuff but they are combined.
Nestea> I've also received it. They asked me to introduce some players for them. Some players come from BW background, so they exchange some of the know-hows with them already. It's the same case for me, but I don't really do it seriously. I can't just hand out my strategies that I worked so hard for to these new BW pros. I don't even do that for other current SC2 pros.
Imagine how good IM would be if everyplayer shared their knowledge with every player! Because apparently they dont
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
On January 24 2012 03:39 Nuclease wrote: If BW teams start taking over, I will have to stop watching. I cannot watch corporate gaming teams take over SC2. We have to fight that!
All I hope is that all games coming out of Korea will have English commentary. The period of transition will be rough, but everything will stabilize eventually. Good players will still be good, even if their team changes.
On the bright side a lot of money will be going into SC2.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Can we have the long story please? I'd read it.
It doesnt seem that complicated based on what milkies said. If Blizzard signed a contract for exclusive rights to GOM then KESPA needs to convince GOM to give up that exclusive contract which also means that there is little to no chance of GOM being "shut out" of the scene or any of the current SC2 players being "shut out" as well.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
The foreign starcraft will not die since it has lots of tournaments and money involved already. It's just that koreans will own foreigners a lot more often (like now it's not enough lol )
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Some people in this thread are blowing things way out proportions with all the talk of doomstay, the foreign scene dying and what not.
Firstly when the BW pros will switch, even the cream of the crop will still be bellow today's standards of play. They will have quite a lot of catching up to do. Now the main thing the BW pros have going for them is a very good work ethic. I'm quite sure that, if they put in the time to learn SC2 they will be incredibly strong, but it will take months for them to reach that level.
MVP is the perfect example, having almost gotten into a BW A-team, he has the right mindset and work ethic to be the best of the best. However I am sure there are other Koreans as well that have that kind of mentality and stick to a strict practice regime, like the Slayers team, Startale etc.
So its still quite possible for the SC2 Korean scene that exists now to be on par with the players that switch from BW to SC2, provided they stick to their practice.
At worst foregneirs will still participate and play in EU and NA events. SC2 has, in my opinion, with the barcraft movement and all, grown too much for it to colapse compleatly. However, the hard working and dedicated foregneirs, like IdrA, HuK, Jinro, Ret, Namaa etc, that go and practice in Korea, will still find good success, also if the team house phenomenon starts to pick up steam then the foreign scene could still remain relatively competitive to the Korean one, at least on par with the level it is today.
What this forces the foregneirs to do is just practice harder and play better, that isn't a bad thing at all. Also note, like Nestea said in the interview, he has been aproached by other teams and isn't willing to change his team, because he already lives very well. Just because the BW teams have more financial backing doesn't mean they will imediately buy out every single star, be him Korean of Foreign. No, more likely they will indeed buy some smaller players to help explain the meta-game and all to their main players, and also to grow them and make them stronger.
The only thing that does worry me is the GOM and KeSPA dispute, I hope it can be resolved in a good way, one which brings prosperity for e-sports and for both sides.
If KeSPA however is really interested in the foreign scene, they might try to negociate more with DH, MLG etc, to have their best players flow out around the world. I mean, they must recognize that SC2 is now a global thing, and even with all the profit they could generate in Korea, they could make way way more if they send say, Flash, Bisu and Jaedong to MLG. And at the very least the foreign scene will survive because of that.
I hope, and it might be a fools hope, Kespa will just create a SC2 league as a side-thing just like the Special Forces league and keep running a BW league with the players and teams as they are or I'm going to have to find myself a new hobby.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Logically Blizzard should want the Korean esports scene to grow but I assume they want to avoid things that might result in BW like situation even if they would make money on the licensing.
Just guessing of course but for Blizzard everything should boil down to what makes them sell most games. So I'm curious about what Blizzard is actually trying to achieve since it's probably not just about collecting future licensing fees.
Welp, if the Sc2 teams(who have a lot of funding) switch to SC2 its all over for foreigners.
We barely can compete against poor korean teams imagine when the rich Korean teams switch over lol.
I am worried about the poorer korean teams, I think a good compromise would be a merge or something. But now that I think about it if Kespa decides to do well the poorer Korean teams might be able to get more sponsors.
Dunno, there is potential for great good and great harm
The current sc2 teams have a great asset, which is their current player skill level. As Mr Chae implied, bw team switching won't make their players good in one month, or even 6, compared to players who play the game for 2 years (if the switch is mid year). So money is not the only parameter, player skill will be at least as important. Unless kespa or whoever make a separate special league.
On January 24 2012 06:43 McFeser wrote: So Nestea said he recieved some offers from Foriegn teams? (first question) I'm really curious as to what a god-tier player costs.
I think to buy nestea EG and liquid would have to merge and cut everyone else so that all their money can go to paying for nesteas salary. On a serious note, I am curious who tried to pick up nestea.
Wow...this gave me a lot to think about, it's going to be so interesting to see what happens over the next 6 months or so. I wish NesTea gave a little more detail in his comments, he has the rarest perspective of all being a current top SC2 player.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
How are Blizzard being greedy for not wanting to negotiate with an organisation that doesn't respect their IP? For a new-comer to the scene, KeSPA seems the all-controllong, negative entity in Korean SW:BW scene. I haven't heard more than a few good things about KeSPA, but loads of bad things.
Why do they force all teams to be equal, why do we get so few tournaments a year?
How are the fans in Korea "bad"?
I like how SC2 is now, and I wish for BW pros to switch, because that would increase the level of play. But I don't want KeSPA to come in and dictate everything.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
How are Blizzard being greedy for not wanting to negotiate with an organisation that doesn't respect their IP? For a new-comer to the scene, KeSPA seems the all-controllong, negative entity in Korean SW:BW scene. I haven't heard more than a few good things about KeSPA, but loads of bad things.
Read the other posts by Milkis in the thread. He already covered how KeSPA is "no angel" but does get a lot of bad press it doesn't deserve.
Don't argue against what I just wrote, because it was obviously paraphrasing.
On January 23 2012 18:32 Seraphone wrote: I would really love it if everyone could just get along and both Brood War teams and Sc2 teams all play Sc2 in the same leagues and tournaments. Surely that would be best for everyone?
It would be terrible for Brood War as it wouldn't even be played... How would that be good for everyone.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
There was no negotiations at the point of backing down, you have to realize. Blizzard after a given point made some ridiculous ultimatum that halted KeSPA-GOM negotiations that were going along quite well and forced everyone to court. They dropped the case and did a 180 after finally realizing there isn't money to be made.
Playing politics isn't too difficult. "cooperating" isn't as hard as you think it is, but the hard part is that GOM always wanted to make sure that KeSPA's league don't compete with theirs -- GOM was afraid of KeSPA getting BW rights on the same timeslot as GOM, for example -- and I'm pretty sure GOM wants to make sure that they are going to be the premiere league and not Proleague or OSL2.
Your statement about "awkwardness" seem rather weird because there's no reason to believe that KeSPA is in an awkward situation because "they dont get to do whatever they want", that just sounds terribly spiteful.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
How are Blizzard being greedy for not wanting to negotiate with an organisation that doesn't respect their IP? For a new-comer to the scene, KeSPA seems the all-controllong, negative entity in Korean SW:BW scene. I haven't heard more than a few good things about KeSPA, but loads of bad things.
Why do they force all teams to be equal, why do we get so few tournaments a year?
How are the fans in Korea "bad"?
I like how SC2 is now, and I wish for BW pros to switch, because that would increase the level of play. But I don't want KeSPA to come in and dictate everything.
Cause Blizzard only cared about IP rights when money was being made and they wanted a piece of it. Blizzard started caring about IP rights when KeSPA decided they want to charge OGN/MBC for Proleague because "they run Proleague at a deficit" and sold the rights to it. The second money was involved, Blizzard flew in and told them they wanted a share of the pot on selling them, KeSPA refused because they claimed that they run on a deficit meaning they don't have money to give to blizzard to begin with and it meant that more money was coming out of sponsors pockets for PL/OSL/MSL.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
Is KeSPA even going to have the same clout they do in BW considering how global SC2 is.
I noticed in this SC2 association discussion, foreign teams were kind of ignored. Is this going to end up being Korean SC2 scene interest versus the world SC2 scene interest? KeSPA has in the past been very.....controlling?....of their player base. Could they start blocking foreign participation in order to keep talent at home, or crack down on streaming players?
I would really like to see how that whole relationship unfolds. That could be a big road bump for ESPORTS.
On January 24 2012 07:44 darkest44 wrote: Wow depressing to read. Especially that TIG guy... seemed like a douche. So basically they want to make a new kespa really bad and he says that BW teams should be banned from GOM tournaments but current SC2 pros should be allowed to participate in BW scene's tournaments for sc2? Is this guy insane? Rofl. Talk about stupidly bias, why the hell would the BW scene say sure you can participate in our leagues even though you banned us from yours! What an idiot.
He doesnt say ban BW teams....or make another bad kespa-like organization.
On January 24 2012 07:44 darkest44 wrote: Wow depressing to read. Especially that TIG guy... seemed like a douche. So basically they want to make a new kespa really bad and he says that BW teams should be banned from GOM tournaments but current SC2 pros should be allowed to participate in BW scene's tournaments for sc2? Is this guy insane? Rofl. Talk about stupidly bias, why the hell would the BW scene say sure you can participate in our leagues even though you banned us from yours! What an idiot.
I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
But most of the BW teams have no reason to advertise aboard besides maybe Samsung
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
Is that why they tried to host an OSL finals in China?
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
Is that why they tried to host an OSL finals in China?
.... Maybe because korean air is international? Herp derp
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
To be fair, it could attract NEW large Korean international sponsors (Hyundai anyone?)
Furthermore, when I'm at the Korean Supermarket, I buy certain things because they support Brood War and SC2 as opposed to the alternatives.
im sad because kespa and bw teams will have to switch sooner o later, esports dies in Korea, and they really need foreign money (kinda like what gom does nowadays), i hope for at least good OSL or 2
LoL and Kpop is coming, will be so hard for SC both 1 and 2.
On January 24 2012 08:52 bgx wrote: im sad because kespa and bw teams will have to switch sooner o later, esports dies in Korea, and they really need foreign money (kinda like what gom does nowadays), i hope for at least good OSL or 2
LoL and Kpop is coming, will be so hard for SC both 1 and 2.
Err, how do they need foreign money if they are sustaining themselves on a much higher cost level than GOM is?
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
On January 23 2012 17:15 Itsmedudeman wrote: Oh shit? hints at Happy joining a foreign team??
Actually I think it implies that Happy hasn't actually received offers from foreign teams, because Nestea thinks he might go if he got a good offer. This surprises me, he's probably the best value player in the world because he's low profile despite being probably one of the top 5 Terrans in the world simply because he's so overshadowed by MVP. Maybe this article will make some team realise that they should buy him (please Nazgul get him for Liquid).
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
There was no negotiations at the point of backing down, you have to realize. Blizzard after a given point made some ridiculous ultimatum that halted KeSPA-GOM negotiations that were going along quite well and forced everyone to court. They dropped the case and did a 180 after finally realizing there isn't money to be made.
Playing politics isn't too difficult. "cooperating" isn't as hard as you think it is, but the hard part is that GOM always wanted to make sure that KeSPA's league don't compete with theirs -- GOM was afraid of KeSPA getting BW rights on the same timeslot as GOM, for example -- and I'm pretty sure GOM wants to make sure that they are going to be the premiere league and not Proleague or OSL2.
Your statement about "awkwardness" seem rather weird because there's no reason to believe that KeSPA is in an awkward situation because "they dont get to do whatever they want", that just sounds terribly spiteful.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
How are Blizzard being greedy for not wanting to negotiate with an organisation that doesn't respect their IP? For a new-comer to the scene, KeSPA seems the all-controllong, negative entity in Korean SW:BW scene. I haven't heard more than a few good things about KeSPA, but loads of bad things.
Why do they force all teams to be equal, why do we get so few tournaments a year?
How are the fans in Korea "bad"?
I like how SC2 is now, and I wish for BW pros to switch, because that would increase the level of play. But I don't want KeSPA to come in and dictate everything.
Cause Blizzard only cared about IP rights when money was being made and they wanted a piece of it. Blizzard started caring about IP rights when KeSPA decided they want to charge OGN/MBC for Proleague because "they run Proleague at a deficit" and sold the rights to it. The second money was involved, Blizzard flew in and told them they wanted a share of the pot on selling them, KeSPA refused because they claimed that they run on a deficit meaning they don't have money to give to blizzard to begin with and it meant that more money was coming out of sponsors pockets for PL/OSL/MSL.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
That's a clearer answer, thank you very much for that! - And yes, it does seem both Blizzard and KeSPA are at fault, though I must say I am very unimpressed with how KeSPA does business, and their inability to adapt. It doesn't bode well for their entry into SC2, especially if they still won't bend at all on some of their attitudes toward eSports, and the pros that play.
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
But most of the BW teams have no reason to advertise aboard besides maybe Samsung
True, most BW teams don't have to seek foreign dollars, and that doesn't matter too much. But OGN on the other hand has REALLY good reasons ($) to seek out those advertisers. Catering to international audiences will help OGN and all other teams by association. In my perfect world, something like this is possible.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe would be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 02:22 jayhorn wrote: IIRC GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 TV in Korea until 2013, because KeSPA didn't want to negotiate with Blizzard and there are not very good relations between the two. GOM were happy to work with Blizzard so I don't see why a new contract can't be negotiated for 2013 and beyond. If I am totally wrong on this some1 please correct me.
Personally I think KeSPA should GTFO and SC2 should have it's own governing body, to protect teams and players from the BW teams with mo' money and all that jazz.
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
Wow, this really makes me feel apprehensive about the future of sc2, I mean sure in the end, we want to see the best players, and if the BW players are able to exceed current sc2 players then props to them, they deserve it, however, if the current pros are sidelined, or atleast feel like they will be sidelined, then it removes a lot of incentive for them to play the game.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:
On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 04:49 Longshank wrote:
On January 24 2012 03:15 Milkis wrote: [quote]
It's a long story and tldr, it's Blizzard's greedy fault. Thanks to this everything is in quite an awkward position cause blizzard wants kespa to go into sc2 but they can't cause of Gom and now Gom and KeSPA have to work things out which is going to be quite difficult.
Quite amusingly it was blizzard who stepped in when Gom and KeSPA were pretty close to negotiating regarding BW to sue, and now it's on an even more awkward status lol
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
Is that why they tried to host an OSL finals in China?
.... Maybe because korean air is international? Herp derp
So in other words since the sponsor Korean Air is international they would gain something by opening up beyond Korea.
On January 24 2012 11:18 Ziken wrote: Wow, this really makes me feel apprehensive about the future of sc2, I mean sure in the end, we want to see the best players, and if the BW players are able to exceed current sc2 players then props to them, they deserve it, however, if the current pros are sidelined, or atleast feel like they will be sidelined, then it removes a lot of incentive for them to play the game.
That contradicts every sport in general. If you as a competitor, get beat; Or watch someone that is definitively better than you, and you don't get inspired/motivated to one day smash them. Then you shouldn't have been competing to begin with.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:
On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 04:49 Longshank wrote: [quote]
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to.
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:
On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote: [quote]
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote: I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude.
??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.)
Is that why they tried to host an OSL finals in China?
.... Maybe because korean air is international? Herp derp
So in other words since the sponsor Korean Air is international they would gain something by opening up beyond Korea.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote: [quote] Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
On January 24 2012 06:32 windsupernova wrote: Welp, if the Sc2 teams(who have a lot of funding) switch to SC2 its all over for foreigners.
We barely can compete against poor korean teams imagine when the rich Korean teams switch over lol.
I am worried about the poorer korean teams, I think a good compromise would be a merge or something. But now that I think about it if Kespa decides to do well the poorer Korean teams might be able to get more sponsors.
Dunno, there is potential for great good and great harm
I doubt that. Yes, a lot of the foreigners would be pushed out but there are good players who have potential and also a few foreigners who have hung around with the best of the best of koreans (Naniwa, HuK, Stephano and even Dimaga). They're still no MMA, MVP or Leenocktopus and perhaps not as good as some of the potential bw gamers who switchers over but its hardly over at all.
There will still be the MLG..IPL, IEM, Dreamhack and as long as there's partnership between MLG-GomTV's GSL, there will always be foreigners competing at these events. Will they be successful? Time will tell and it will be hard but given the right training conditinos, the committment and the practice to really become the best of the best, you can get there.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote: [quote]
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:
On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote: [quote]
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =(
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them.
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
Im probably too close to several people at Riot to be close to an objective person on this but in order for LoL to be dethroned it would need a signifigant misstep to convince people to watch game a over game b and that hasnt happend and with the effort Riot puts into making there game a renowned e-sport it probably wont.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote: [quote]
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote: [quote]
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice.
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing.
However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money.
Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote: [quote]
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it.
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing.
However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money.
Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be.
Riot makes a TON of money off there game. Back when they came up with concept of "pay for characters but not really" approach and you can buy outfits I expected it to make far far less than it did but people will pay a forturne for a new set of clothes on a guy. I would have to say if it came down to a bidding war then LoL wins hands down. As a company Valve is way way bigger but I cant see a game company outbidding with profits from other games.
I was sure this post was about SC2 and BW players/teams and the impact of them moving over to SC2, but seems it's really about LoL and DoTA2?
Based on GOM's (Mr Chae's) wording in the original article (baring in mind it's a translation), and the fact they've already changed the GSTL format, I believe this is evidence that they already have an agreement of some sort in place with Kespa and/or OGN.
I'm going to speculate wildly that this means the first stage of the real "BW Pro's are coming" is going to be a (or several) BW teams entry into the GSTL.
The next step will be an additional league run by OGN, and the current sc2 teams and GOM are hoping that they will be included in that (just as the BW teams will be able to enter GSTL).
I think 2012 will be the make it or break it year for sc2. For SC2 to survive we need korea and more importantly we need the BW pros/fans to switch to SC2 and not quit esport or follow the moba trend, also the next two expansions of SC2 will obviously play a major role in this.
LOL is popular because its free and lots of RPG players also liked the game ( 10-18 year old population ).. SC2 viewers are very loyal and older , and skill wise SC2 is untouchable , you got to devote your life to it like normal sports its not like you can play like MVP/MC with a year training . Who ever watched SC2 or BW knows that its not possible , its actually impossible.
Dota , LOL , HON even blizzard Dota seems like moba games are a nice trend that will go on , maybe to stay maybe not , but i really dont see people following the scene for 2/3 years of the same thing over and over again... At least SC2 we get new maps every month and will get 2 new expansions (maybe more) that will make the game much more fresh and it will bring more players/viewers !
Blizzard should have made SC2 for consoles along with a mouse and a keyboard , Blizzard was not on console market but with D3 they seem very interested.
On January 25 2012 05:01 tapk69 wrote: LOL is popular because its free and lots of RPG players also liked the game ( 10-18 year old population ).. SC2 viewers are very loyal and older , and skill wise SC2 is untouchable , you got to devote your life to it like normal sports its not like you can play like MVP/MC with a year training . Who ever watched SC2 or BW knows that its not possible , its actually impossible.
Dota , LOL , HON even blizzard Dota seems like moba games are a nice trend that will go on , maybe to stay maybe not , but i really dont see people following the scene for 2/3 years of the same thing over and over again... At least SC2 we get new maps every month and will get 2 new expansions (maybe more) that will make the game much more fresh and it will bring more players/viewers !
Blizzard should have made SC2 for consoles along with a mouse and a keyboard , Blizzard was not on console market but with D3 they seem very interested.
Consoles are too prohibitive to esports IMO. Creative control is taken away from the community, the hardware is proprietary and likely to be locked down with an iron first (compared to PC), including software modification, and the game developed interacts with the games community by proxy through the proprietary network system of the console manufacturer. Which is why Valve doesn't support console TF2 as much (at all?). Microsoft either won't allow or can't distribute DLC in a way Valve wants or needs it to be.
On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote: I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
[quote]
Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from?
Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are.
I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing.
However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money.
Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be.
Riot makes a TON of money off there game. Back when they came up with concept of "pay for characters but not really" approach and you can buy outfits I expected it to make far far less than it did but people will pay a forturne for a new set of clothes on a guy. I would have to say if it came down to a bidding war then LoL wins hands down. As a company Valve is way way bigger but I cant see a game company outbidding with profits from other games.
I don't believe Dota2 is going to be free. There's much profit to be had and many rabid Valve fans on top of dota-clone fans. Sc2 sold how much? 5 million copies in the first month or something? If Dota2 sells anywhere near that much (I'm assuming it'll sell much more) they will have the profits to blow on a bidding war.
To be honest, Riot's F2P and funding of their e-sports scene is a great idea. However, Steam is an incredibly powerful tool, it's much stronger than Bnet 2.0 as a marketing indicator. The fact that someone is using Steam means they have money to blow on non-pirated games. Advertising Dota2/Dota2 tournaments to people with money can be a huge deal.
Starcraft 2 has the most established e-sports scene, possibly because people are willing to spend money which comes around to pay for players, team houses, and stuff. Ad revenues for gaming/tournament events aren't strong enough to fund the e-sports scene at large yet.
Now think about Valve and their Steam platform. They know their constituents have money. Heck, they could advertise their own games from Steam in Dota2 tournaments (it even hits the right audience, gamers buying games). I don't think anyone else has that kind of infrastructure. Not even Sc2. Dota2 has the potential to be the best parts of LoL and Sc2 and more in e-sports.
I'm not sure why this article thread on SC2/BW switching is talking about lol/dota2esports. But w/e, i'll join in.
Dota2 will roflstomp it's way through the moba scene to be the main esport in that genre. Don't underestimate that it's a game by valve. (maybe the only one in the genre, though that's debatable if LoL keeps linking its client to tournaments, they'll at least get their own players maybe watching)
SC2 won't go away, Blizzard can't really fuck up much more than they have, and we're only growing. So there's that.
Fighters will stay small as esports, and some random team-based shooter will score mediocre views. Hopefully a good 1v1 shooter rises to the top, which actually might happen in the next 2-3 years and would be nice, but I won't hold my breath.
It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
hmm its weird but am i the only one who wants to see current sc2 pro compete with bw pros that are switching over? can't kespa just fuse with gom? wouldnt that be sad to see 2 separate leagues that do not comepte with each other?
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I disagree with your analysis about Valve's "awesome new model" for esports.
First, anyone that has experience with Counter-Strike can tell you that Valve is historically extremely out of touch with the esports scene. They had a huge opportunity that with CS 1.6 and they totally dropped the ball.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
The true sustainable business model for esports is what we're seeing with SC2 and other games that are featured in tournaments like MLG and GSL that can sustain a business through advertising, sponsors and attracting large viewership numbers, not through marketing gimmicks that seem to blind people with high prize dollars.
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".
You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote: Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.
Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
TF2 is a blast, but I don't like my eSports built around a hat based economy.
League of legends is beating broodwar in Korea PC Bang rankings! Sc2 not even top 10.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.
And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".
You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.
And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
The PC bangs ratings are pretty impressing. Never imagined LoL making that big of a splash in Korea.
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
EDIT:
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
If Blizzard designed the game to be what they considered and eSport, its logical they would do everything they could to advertise and make it successful (speaking to your last point). I disagree with legally trying to inhibit BW, but I can't really fault them from pushing what they attempted to design the game to be. Given their intent and investment, they couldn't reasonably follow the business model "Release the game and if successful then use all this stuff we invested in".
You may critique the decision to pre-emptively try to invest and jump start the eSport infrastructure around the game while still in development, but once those pieces were in play how they played it isn't really diabolical.
The launch in SC2 failed to a point where they either fired the head of Blizzard Korea or the head resigned himself few weeks after the release of SC2. They also expected all BW fans to hop onto SC2 and watch GSL and other games, but at the moment the size of fans at regular GSL matches (meaning studio matches, not finals) is much, much smaller compared to BroodWar.
most of the staff at blizzard korea jumped ship to riot's korean division.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.
And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
Maplestory is above Starcraft 2?
Wow I never thought things were that bad for SC2 in Korea.
Second, any esports model that relies on developers injecting money for the purpose of marketing their new games is not sustainable. As soon as it no longer makes business sense for Valve to subsidize these tournaments, the money will dry up and they'll be dropped, just as has happened in the past with other games.
I feel like I should point out that sc2 money could dry up just as fast. We don't know if these leagues are sustainable or profitable or not yet. (Xeris said no esport league makes money) Dota 2 and LoL might end up outlasting the sc2 esports model for all we know.
And doesn't dota has a bunch of tournaments without valve support anyways I thought only the international had valve money but I'm not sure.
LoL is becoming really popular here in Korea right now, and OGN is right to invest into it when the opportunity is there. However, I'm not sure if the game can grow itself into a legit e-sports genre. It's all just wait and see deal with LoL. There are a lot of people playing it, but the question is if the game can sustain the interest of the market in the long term. One thing BW had going was that the game was actually easy to understand for those who do not know the game fully. It was a spectator's sport, not a gamer's sport, and that's really what fueled the BW's popularity. This is the same with SC2 - people don't necessarily have to play the game to understand who's winning or losing.
Another thing I want to mention is that e-sports in Korea is not just about SC2 or BW. The direction KeSPA is taking is not to promote one or two games, but instead to develop an umbrella of competitive gaming culture. This is the right way to do it because if SC2 or LoL doesn't work out in Korea, it doesn't necessarily mean the e-sports also has to die.
On January 25 2012 12:06 jidolboy wrote: If you mean in Korea, - Illegal advertising - Kespa vs Blizzard - No lan - Trying to shove sc2 down the throat
I don't think I heard of the advertising thing.
I know of Kespa vs Blizzard, but my understanding was Kespa acted like a douche as much as Blizzard acted like a dick.
Yeah, no lan sucks.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
1. They covered a side of entire building in Korea promoting SC2. It is illegal to do so unless they get prior permission, which did not happen.
2. Blizzard-related persons went around PC Bangs and posted up SC2 posters EVERYWHERE from the entrance door to covering up other games to promote SC2. I don't remember if Korean PC Bang Association actually took this to court, but there were words about it.
Trying to shove SC2 down the throat? You mean part of the Kespa issue where they tried to regain creative control over the IP, which they generally ignored until SC2? I can see that being annoying to the fans, but its common business practice when IP's are involved, I don't think its a deal breaker. To some investors, that is actually looked favorably because of the company actively attempting to secure their investments (not that I agree with it).
Putting the stupid IP aside, Blizzard intended to make eSports out of SC2 even before a scene developed. It doesn't matter who took action and what happened, Blizzard just shoved the game down everyone's throats before it formed a stable scene in Korea. BW, on the other hand, had a stable and good fan base before the whole thing went on television.
On an related note, wasn't the blizzard Korea's boss of the time fired for this? Or what?
Mr. Chae> No, we won't stop them from participating. We can't. Haven't you forgotten about the "classic" incident? (note: not sure what he's referring to here)
GOMTV Classic had Kespa proteams in it, then Kespa ordered them all to leave, since it is partially Kespa's effort that the proteams exist in the way they were, meaning that the progamers are intellectual property of Kespa and therefore they can stop them from participating in other leagues (since Kespa wouldn't make money the same way if they played for something else instead of for Kespa events)
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
On January 25 2012 13:19 Resistentialism wrote: Valve has some incredible after-release support, given the right title. Take a look at TF2. It's not altruistic, but it's there 4 years later.
Not to say TF2 turned into an incredible esports title, either. Even if I think 6v6 TF2 is one of the better esports to watch or play in
Blizzard patched diablo2 some weeks ago.
Post Release support isn't really one of blizzard's weak points either.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra) Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra) Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
Kespa was assigned by the Korean government... it manages esports in Korea. It's a subsidiary to the Ministry of Culture. In brief that's how it was formed, not by BW or sponsors. They may have influenced its creation, but idk if much else besides that.
When I was reading the article... I didn't like TIG implying the need of an association for korean teams. As far as manners, professionalism, conduct, I don't think an Association is needed to enforce that kind of stuff. Like mr.chae said, its gom's responsibility if they want higher quality games. And player transfers is up to the team...
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
Well, first there was no foreign BW scene because foreigners werent just good enough (except a couple of people like Idra) Second you have to know that Kespa is formed by BW and other sponsers. Some have no interest in foreign scenes such as KT or SKT because they are domestic cellphone providers.
I definitely understand their actions during BW. But I am saying had that sort of self-interest transferred over unimpeded to SC2, odds are the scene would still be as strongly divided as in BW, regardless of foreign development. On one had, KeSPA organized and protected players in BW that were in a viritual global vacuum skill wise and opportunity wise, but SC2 thats not the case.
KeSPA is perhaps good for the Korean eSports scene, but is in a very odd position for a truly global eSport. While not the same thing, attitude wise looking at an MLG or IEM, esport organizations that are border less and try to encourage global growth and participation, KeSPA appears very insulating in a bad way. At least from the outside in perspective.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa.
SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
The more I think about it, and the more I read, the more I think the SC2 scene is better off without Kespa trying to take control of the SC2 scene in Korea.
Do we really want the Korean SC2 players put in a situation where there participation in foreign events be restricted by a governing body? Or, restricted to only being able to play against other Kespa signed players?
I agree to a certain extent that there needs to be some protections in place for both the players and the teams, but I'm not sure the model that worked for BW in Korea will work for SC2 in Korea.
I actually love the way that GOM has been developing lately, and how they have taken on the feedback they've been given and grown and changed the GSL. This season is shaping up to be the best so far, with so many good games already. And the players seem to be coming out of their shells and we are seeing some real personality (recent group selections, Homestory Cup, IEM Kiev). Would we be seeing that in a Kespa controlled Korean SC2 scene?
I'd hate to see a big shake up where the Korean SC2 scene is divided and players had to choose between Kespa association or GOM. I'd far rather see transitioning BW pro's come in via GOM intially, and if/when a second league (e.g., OGN) starts up that it's open to all.
But will Kespa be happy having their players playing with/against non-Kespa players? I only know about Kespa from what I've read on TL, and from that have an impression of an organisation that keeps tight control over it's players, and playing conditions. How would that work on the global SC2 stage?
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa.
SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
Blizz was not always as big as it is today, at least as a relative financial and developer juggernaut. I think it is a mistake to ignore the financial success WoW gave them as well as serving as an example of a global game.
I think SC2 shows how much they were always aware of SC and Korea, even though results today are not what they or anyone wanted I don't think. Wasn't the game announced in Korea? KeSPA once made an analogy saying how BW was akin to a soccer ball, and soccer leagues don't have to pay royalties or enter any contracts with the ball makers. Blizzard (and probably a sizable majority of major software developers) do not like that kind of notion for one reason or another. In Blizzard's case, they probably saw an organization obtaining significant profits by using and displaying the software they developed and were of the mind they ought to at least be credited (monetarily preferably) for developing the foundation of this enterprise.
Using the soccer ball analogy, Blizzard saw an organization not just passively using this software, but highlighting and displaying it as a central focus of their business model.
In soccer, the ball serves as a relative point of importance for the viewer, but its the actions of the players on the field in relation to the ball. Through a Blizzard lens, its the ball that is always what is being focused on and the players play just the supportive role in the balls importance.
In my opinion, its just another example of how society as whole as never really grappled with the concepts of digital content and how to approach it universally. Both perspectives are valid in a sense, but the intangible nature of the product makes dealing with the conflicts a pain in the ass.
KeSPA once made an analogy saying how BW was akin to a soccer ball, and soccer leagues don't have to pay royalties or enter any contracts with the ball makers.
From reading that, I think Kespa got that analogy way wrong, and I can see why Blizzard would not like that view at all.
A better analogy is that Blizzard created soccer, they came up with the concept, how to play it and they adjusted it over time to make it the best version of soccer they could. Kespa provides a new set of venues (i.e., maps) and players, and organises tournaments, but at the end of the day, they are still playing soccer, which was created and owned by Blizzard.
I see Blizzard getting a lot of hate in this thread, but for me I think they've done a great job in supporting SC2. Up until the last year (with the rise of the Moba), PC esports have been in decline with no major developer supporting esports. When I saw how Blizzard were working with and supporting the community in SC2, I breathed a sigh of relief that PC esports did have a chance, and in that time the SC2 scene has globally flourished.
I don't really think Dota2 will be that big in Esport. 1m tournaments didn't really prove anything. SC2 has like 5 times more tournaments than LoL in 2011. I have SC2 tournaments to watch every week. Valve and Riot are fighting each other with their huge prize money. If I remember right LoL tournaments are all paid by Riot and I don't really think Valve has what it takes to make Esport game after I played CS:S except they have money. SC2 may not be as big as BW in Korea but it's a huge success in other places in the world.
^ There's so many Dota2 tournaments now that you have 5-6 games casted daily. The number of people watching the livestreams has tripled since last year. Granted, prizemoney is quite low, around 10k per tournament, but still quite good for a game in a beta stage. The number of teams competing is insane compared to last year, there's just so many teams popping out of nowhere. I'm in the beta and I can tell you Valve is doing exceptionally well of listening to the community. All the dota pro's do nothing but praise Valve and IceFrog, heck even people who quite dota1 some years ago have returned to compete in dota2.. And I think that's quite smart, because involving the dota1 pros in the beta ensures that they will keep on playing (CS Source anyone?) which will also ensure that tier fans will keep playing the game. So I'd say Valve's way of going about it is pretty slick and smart.
On January 24 2012 02:12 zdfgucker wrote: I would LOVE to see A teamers from BW teams split up into BW and SC2 divisions. Seriously it has to be extremely heart-breaking if you are one of the best in practice games and only have a 25% chance to play in team games for KT
It's hard to be one of the best in practise games when u're playing against flash... u basically just sit there and wait to get rolled over.
On January 24 2012 02:12 zdfgucker wrote: I would LOVE to see A teamers from BW teams split up into BW and SC2 divisions. Seriously it has to be extremely heart-breaking if you are one of the best in practice games and only have a 25% chance to play in team games for KT
It's hard to be one of the best in practise games when u're playing against flash... u basically just sit there and wait to get rolled over.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
KeSPA teams did try to recruit foreigners to expand their audience. They've got nothing on Gom in foreign relations, but they'd definitely put an effort to hire foreign casters/etc if they saw the market.
Truth be told, this scene needed KeSPA's money, influence, and player support since Blizzard didn't offer the former two, and the latter is still largely missing from the Korean scene. MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/IEM/NASL would still be around for the foreign scene.
I understand that KeSPA goes a bit crazy on rule regulation, and that they were the "unpopular" side on the Blizzard v KeSPA debate, but now it's obvious that Blizzard lacked vision and only damaged what could/should have been.
Truth be told, I think Gom is being over-praised in this situation. OGN could surely hire some English speaking casters and stream OS2L in English. It's not like Gom attempted to get GSL broadcasts to an international audience on TV, yes?
By the way, there's a thread around there that said Gom told the Seoul barcraft to stop. That's not exactly a good mark on their resume.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Would KeSPA had honestly given a damn about the foreign scene though? I can understand all this and pretty much agree looking inward from a Korean perspective, but outward while not perfect and is in definite need of certain thing (LAN), is doing alright for a game only out for a year and a half.
From a game perspective (and this is my opinion) I feel SC2 or SC in general is one of the stronger platforms out there to market and formalize a global esports scene. I do think Blizzard needs to loosen up a bit and perhaps give more competitive control to the community in terms of map pools and what not, but I can't help but think had KeSPA not had anything Blizzard related in their way, we would have a somewhere similar problem in reverse.
Wasn't KeSPA very protective and insulted in their competitive scene. The level on control over the players, I feel, would definitely have kept the Korean SC2 scene relatively under-wraps. Perhaps even charging outside tournament to use their talent to promote their tournament. There could have been a lot more divisiveness resulting in similar stagnation.
I am not dismissing or ignoring Blizzards screw-ups you pointed out, but I am saying if left to their own devices I don't see why KeSPA would have had any interest in reaching out to the foreign scene in any interest for mutual growth like we more or less see now. They had no reason to crack the shell.
KeSPA teams did try to recruit foreigners to expand their audience. They've got nothing on Gom in foreign relations, but they'd definitely put an effort to hire foreign casters/etc if they saw the market.
Truth be told, this scene needed KeSPA's money, influence, and player support since Blizzard didn't offer the former two, and the latter is still largely missing from the Korean scene. MLG/Dreamhack/IPL/IEM/NASL would still be around for the foreign scene.
I understand that KeSPA goes a bit crazy on rule regulation, and that they were the "unpopular" side on the Blizzard v KeSPA debate, but now it's obvious that Blizzard lacked vision and only damaged what could/should have been.
Truth be told, I think Gom is being over-praised in this situation. OGN could surely hire some English speaking casters and stream OS2L in English. It's not like Gom attempted to get GSL broadcasts to an international audience on TV, yes?
By the way, there's a thread around there that said Gom told the Seoul barcraft to stop. That's not exactly a good mark on their resume.
You could also argue that KeSPA lacked vision when BW was really hot in Korea, but not trying to expose the world to it or actively try to contribute the budding foreign communities struggling to hold on. I kind of heard that KeSPA included foreigners in eSTRO and Entus (I think), but did they ever try to push the envelope or give any hint they even wanted to expand the scene beyond their immediate borders?
I think there is no "best" choice in this scenario. Both options seem to come with a host of negatives.
On January 25 2012 10:48 boxturtle wrote: It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
I understand the lack of LAN and ladder map variety, etc, are issues to be sure. But what exact has Blizzard done that was so wrong and devastating to SC2 that they effectively condemned it?
It's in 2 parts: 1. Lack of attention/support for their own e-sport. 2. Pissing contest with Kespa
1. Blizzard/Activision does not fund their e-sports the way Valve and Riot are now doing. They want to use their e-sports scenes as pocket change, not an investment.
I see people talking about the exclusivity of sc2, and LoL being free. That really has nothing to do with the amount of success LoL has over sc2. Dota2 is much more exclusive, it's in a selective beta-type phase. The Dota2 International tournament had more viewers than LoL, and it's pros get paid more. Sc2 is simply way behind.
Look at the amount of attention Activision is giving CoD's e-sport scene. That's right, you can't even see it. This is a terrible way to go about the e-sports business. If not sc2, why not CoD? It has much more appeal and a much larger audience than LoL, Dota, or any -craft.
Blizzard wanted the BW teams to pay for broadcasting/having a tournament league, while not giving them a cent and giving only minor amounts of promotion (lol an article on the Blizzard website).
Act-Blizz is handling this e-sports thing in a way that shows that they hardly care, and they want to make a tangible profit at the present moment. It's akin to how Polaroid failed to see the digital camera revolution in front of them and had their stocks cut down from $70+ a share to less than a buck in 3-4 years.
Blizzard has hurt BW more than savior, luxury, and co ever could, and stifled Sc2 more than Halo 258728527052: The Good RTS possibly could have.
I'm not a hater or anything, but I simply can't see how they think their current business model is ok, especially with Acti-Blizz stocks plummeting by 50% in 4 years. I'm no expert in business, but anyone can see this absolute fiasco of a business model isn't really growing the company.
2. A large point of annoyance that I have with Blizzard's handling of Sc2 is their approach to Kespa. They wanted Kespa to pay for broadcasting their stuff. I've seen so many people say "blarg blarg they deserve money blarg." Sure, they may "deserve" it, but they're absolutely stupid for killing their e-sports scene like this. They've lost incredible amounts of money they could have made, and deprived Sc2 e-sport fans of the great matches they could have had.
Every other game company builds a game, helps build an e-sports scene, and reaps the benefits.
Blizzard builds an arguably inferior game to their previous work, demands the Korean organizations that built their e-sports scene for money, deprives loyal fans, American, Korean, other Asian, European, and more of great games they could have had.
If Blizzard thought they could "win" this fight against Kespa, they were sorely mistaken. All they've done is heavily damage the BW scene, heavily stifle the Sc2 scene, and in the process, allowed other companies with far less resources to completely trounce them in all affairs e-sports. Kespa has bigger and better things to look forward to now, like LoL and Dota2.
Thank you, thats kinda how i feel about Blizzard and their esports vision. They failed to realize how big BW was, i remember that they sponsored KPGA or some other oldschool korean tournament but besides that they completely ignored it. Its kinda funny because 1 year later BW skyrocketed. And later Blizz actions could be seen merely as frustration that they couldnt see the cash cow that was BW. They tried to milk it later but unfortunately for them Kespa alraedy established whole league. I cant imagine how more awesome BW could be if Blizzard gave full support to Kespa.
SC2 launch failure in Korea shows that Blizz is not even aware of their own Korean backyard.
No I'm pretty sure Blizzard is quite aware of how big BW is/was in Korea. Blizzard was just arrogant, greedy, and spiteful, and most importantly, failed to understand how fragile the whole Starcraft scene actually was after its peak. But KeSPA doesn't escape blame either - beyond being greedy, Blizzard had good reason to distrust them. They both were acting stupid, and both suffered for it. Blizzard's Korean team pretty much defected, and I'm sure the SC2 market in Korea didn't meet initial projections (but the success of SC2 outside of Korea made up for that). KeSPA on the other hand "lost" MBC and is hemorrhaging the pro teams that it regulates.
It's weird to see how both organizations managed to spawn and govern the Starcraft scene yet bungle it in so many ways, big and small.
sorry to all LOL and Dota fans... but throwing huge prizemoney to tourneys and making it popular is going to be their doom... Its like giving the lottery without nobody buying tickets , or giving WSOP prizes to poker players without them paying the entry fee..
Sc2 has so many games and tourneys everyday that even the community sometimes cant pick up , but one thing is for sure , were there , it may have less viewers and even players , but it has much more dedication and support , also because community is normally older guys 18-25 yr old as opposed to 12-18 on LOL..
Steam has like normally 50k players on CS 1,6 , 50 k on Skyrim , 50 k on COD , 50k on source and 50k on TF2.. so i doubt Dota2 will have more than 100k daily players. The problem is that you also have origin now and consoles exist too , im not seeing anyone who doesnt play LOL or Dota watching it , but this is just my opinion on the Moba trend.
LoL is popular because it's marketed well and it's free. There's nothing else to say on that front. It's easy as hell to market a free game. It's the same reason MapleStory is so highly ranked. You can play it without committing anything to playing it, unlike Sc2. Unfortunately, LoL (unlike DotA) has a really low skill ceiling because of how easy it is compared to its predecessor. Ultimately, though, LoL is still going to beat DotA2 in viewers just because it's too complicated to really be a spectator sport. To an extent, LoL's simplicity helps it in this arena, because even though there are 3 lanes and just 1 observer camera, there's not as much being missed due to the inherent simplicity of the game.
I've always said that Sc2 will continue to be the most watchable eSport, and it's the truth. You can watch Sc2 without knowing a lot about the game and be able to tell exactly what's going on. You can see every subtlety of strategy right there on display. Having played DotA for several years, I can tell you that it's still one of the most unexciting things to watch because about half the game is dead time with nothing happening. Now, I don't mean there's nothing happening on the level of strategy or mechanics, but to a viewer, there's not much going on at all. There's nothing exciting about watching someone farm really well or last hit perfectly. It's cool, sure, but it's not even close to as interesting as watching early game TvZ. That's the problem with MOBA games that will keep them from attracting a diverse crowd as eSports. People will watch them if and only if they are regular players.
As for Kespa, we desperately need it . Sc2 is lacking legitimacy at the moment. Everyone is quick to defer to Blizzard or to do whatever they want as a pro player. This is not conducive to a growing scene. I don't want an ultra-controlling organization in charge, but I do want big sponsors, business-oriented decisions, and guidelines which prevent players/casters from doing detrimental things to the scene without consequence.
As for the overall scene, Sc2 will be fine because of the strong infrastructure which is in place. No other game has team houses or stable teams like Sc2 does. Looking at MOBA games, in particular DotA, it was not uncommon to see teams break up and reform every month or two. This is problematic behaviour from the point of view of a sponsor. It's very difficult to picture Samsung or Intel stepping in and saying "we want to sponsors this American team that will probably break up in a month or two." With Starcraft 2? It's more feasible, because teams are teams with tangible, relevant contracts and generally substantial salaries. Putting a DotA team on salary is expensive because of the 5-player dynamic and the constant liability of internal disagreements between members leading to one or more players abandoning the others.
In sum, Blizzard DOES need to put more money into the scene, because this is the one game where it would actually be beneficial. Valve and Riot are basically investing in games which are 100% player driven, rather than sponsor driven. Starcraft 2 is driven by sponsors, players, and its existing infrastructure. Any investment from Blizzard would automatically attract huge interest for the Sc2 community because there are established channels for it to impact.
I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess.
Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team.
Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players.
On February 20 2012 00:15 pdd wrote: I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess.
Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team.
Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players.
On February 20 2012 00:15 pdd wrote: I couldn't find the thread which was made in response to FXOBoSs's blog stating the BW pros are coming in approx 40 days, so this shall suffice I guess.
Anyway, he's tweeted and blogged that they are currently practicing with an SC2 team. During the height of the aLive-Fnatic-TSL debacle, he tweeted that those players were headed to TSL, so no idea if it's still the same or they decided to move to a new team.
Either way, he also tweeted saying a prominent player on the [Shield] clan is one of those players.
his id is scar[Shield],he is playing for SlayerS's B team...
I don't think Boss would make a big post about 'prominent' players moving to SC2, if it was Scar. Scar was a virtual unknown in BW.
EDIT: Looking at BW TLPD though, the only prominent Shield guys who haven't made the switch are Bisu and Sea. Kinda doubt either of them would be moving.
Other than Sea and Bisu, I don't really see any notable [shield] players other than the ones that have already switched to SC2 like MMA, MKP, SangHo, and HerO. 910, Spear, and JiHyun seem to be the only ones with any slight hint of achievements, though their most recent games are over a year or two ago.
I'm getting really tired of FXOBoss revealing snippets of secret information that he is privy to, but can't or won't fully disclose. Supposedly we'll know more in April, which is ages away.
Other than Sea and Bisu, I don't really see any notable [shield] players other than the ones that have already switched to SC2 like MMA, MKP, SangHo, and HerO. 910, Spear, and JiHyun seem to be the only ones with any slight hint of achievements, though their most recent games are over a year or two ago.
It's becoming more and more clear that FXOboss doesn't know anything about the bw scene or who's important.
you guys have to stop shitting on FXOboss for posting something to his personal blog. He can post whatever he wants there. He isn't making some corporate announcement or news report.
I'm thankful someone involved in the korean scene is sharing their thoughts at all.
I love fxo boss. And im just excited for the Bw players to come..what we need is some girl to befriend wolf, get secret info, and then break up with him and tell us.
this may seem like good news, but it actually is bad news for most of TL. the problem is that the new influx of players (without speculating too much on their ability) will further exclude the foreign scene. if they are average in korea, say Virus kind of average, they would roflstomp even the strongest foreigner. every gold medal would belong to korea.
we all know that is precisely what happened with BW. in the end foreigners pack up and go home. that's also the reason why BW is in trouble right now. it's a catch 22.
On April 21 2012 22:15 shadymmj wrote: this may seem like good news, but it actually is bad news for most of TL. the problem is that the new influx of players (without speculating too much on their ability) will further exclude the foreign scene. if they are average in korea, say Virus kind of average, they would roflstomp even the strongest foreigner. every gold medal would belong to korea.
we all know that is precisely what happened with BW. in the end foreigners pack up and go home. that's also the reason why BW is in trouble right now. it's a catch 22.
Did you even read the article with coaches? they all said that they made the mistake not including the foreign scene in BW and that's why BW is dying and they will make sure not make the mistake again. T_T
They wont ROFLstomp foreigners because foreigners have the same opportunities as the Koreans nowadays, nobody hinders them from going to Korea and practice with the koreans (See: Naniwa, HuK, SaSe etc.). Most of the coaches said that they have players that've reached Masters on korean server, that doesn't even say anything (and they've been praticing parttime since 3 months back) It took NightEnd a week to reach GM on Korea. SC2 is NOT BW.
On April 21 2012 22:15 shadymmj wrote: this may seem like good news, but it actually is bad news for most of TL. the problem is that the new influx of players (without speculating too much on their ability) will further exclude the foreign scene. if they are average in korea, say Virus kind of average, they would roflstomp even the strongest foreigner. every gold medal would belong to korea.
we all know that is precisely what happened with BW. in the end foreigners pack up and go home. that's also the reason why BW is in trouble right now. it's a catch 22.
Did you even read the article with coaches? they all said that they made the mistake not including the foreign scene in BW and that's why BW is dying and they will make sure not make the mistake again. T_T
They wont ROFLstomp foreigners because foreigners have the same opportunities as the Koreans nowadays, nobody hinders them from going to Korea and practice with the koreans (See: Naniwa, HuK, SaSe etc.). Most of the coaches said that they have players that've reached Masters on korean server, that doesn't even say anything (and they've been praticing parttime since 3 months back) It took NightEnd a week to reach GM on Korea. SC2 is NOT BW.
it seems they are more interested in protecting the interests of the current sc2 teams. honestly, it's hard to exclude willing players from tournaments "just because they're korean".
You can also tell that over time, foreigners are actually losing ground, not gaining.
I'm not really here to discuss if the BW teams will usurp the dominant positions in SC2 (even though I think that will be the case). I'm saying that even if they are average, at worst, that there will be a lot more hurdles for any foreigner to overcome. More players = more competition = higher skill level. It's simple.
EPT
I hope we can read the other parts, thank you.
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![[image loading]](http://img.dailygame.co.kr/news/20120425/20120425_86e5543af7743c4c39702e9cde986edd.jpg)
