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On January 24 2012 11:18 Ziken wrote:Wow, this really makes me feel apprehensive about the future of sc2, I mean sure in the end, we want to see the best players, and if the BW players are able to exceed current sc2 players then props to them, they deserve it, however, if the current pros are sidelined, or atleast feel like they will be sidelined, then it removes a lot of incentive for them to play the game. 
That contradicts every sport in general. If you as a competitor, get beat; Or watch someone that is definitively better than you, and you don't get inspired/motivated to one day smash them. Then you shouldn't have been competing to begin with.
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On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote:On January 24 2012 04:49 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
Blizzard forced KeSPA to cooperate. I can see though how that is awkward for them, most things are when doing something you're not used to. I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations. Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story. Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =( Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate. My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them. Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports. So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go. I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in. It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected. Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty. EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness.
Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv.
Korean talking about it
video
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On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =( Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate. My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them. Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports. So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go. I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in. It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected. Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty. EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo
I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
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On January 24 2012 11:52 BuddhaMonk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 08:47 jidolboy wrote:On January 24 2012 08:43 Primadog wrote:On January 24 2012 08:41 jidolboy wrote:On January 24 2012 08:34 DigitalD[562] wrote:
I have a hopeful outlook on the eventual switch of the BW teams. KeSPA (and it's teams) can NOT make sustainable money solely in Korea. The need for foreign fans, and the sponsorships that come with that hopefully force KeSPA to adopt a more inclusive attitude. ??? I hope this is a troll post. BW sponsers will gain nothing if they open more toward foreign scene (except for Samsung.) Is that why they tried to host an OSL finals in China? .... Maybe because korean air is international? Herp derp So in other words since the sponsor Korean Air is international they would gain something by opening up beyond Korea.
Exactly. They get to advertise their own airline
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On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:
[quote]
Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate.
My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them. Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports. So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go. I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in. It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected. Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty. EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway.
Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports.
Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now.
That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other).
The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
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On January 24 2012 06:32 windsupernova wrote:
Welp, if the Sc2 teams(who have a lot of funding) switch to SC2 its all over for foreigners.
We barely can compete against poor korean teams imagine when the rich Korean teams switch over lol.
I am worried about the poorer korean teams, I think a good compromise would be a merge or something. But now that I think about it if Kespa decides to do well the poorer Korean teams might be able to get more sponsors.
Dunno, there is potential for great good and great harm
I doubt that. Yes, a lot of the foreigners would be pushed out but there are good players who have potential and also a few foreigners who have hung around with the best of the best of koreans (Naniwa, HuK, Stephano and even Dimaga). They're still no MMA, MVP or Leenocktopus and perhaps not as good as some of the potential bw gamers who switchers over but its hardly over at all.
There will still be the MLG..IPL, IEM, Dreamhack and as long as there's partnership between MLG-GomTV's GSL, there will always be foreigners competing at these events. Will they be successful? Time will tell and it will be hard but given the right training conditinos, the committment and the practice to really become the best of the best, you can get there.
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On January 24 2012 12:41 dtz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.
It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports.
So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go.
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in. It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected. Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty. EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway. Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports. Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now. That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other). The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have
I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time?
I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views.
There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game.
There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month.
OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host.
Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company.
I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot.
I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
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On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:On January 24 2012 07:38 Milkis wrote:On January 24 2012 06:08 Longshank wrote:On January 24 2012 05:25 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard who backed down. KeSPA did not -- or rather they couldn't have because they... actually don't have money because they don't operate on a profit. Proleague, for example, is operated literally on Government Subsidy and a "fee" from all the teams, plus the broadcast fees they charge the stations.
Blizzard did force KeSPA to cooperate with GOM though regarding SC2 rights (not Brood War), but that's a whole different story.
Again, the issue was literally because Blizzard trying to get money from the scene that doesn't have any because of how they operate and how bad Korean fans are. This big mistake is pretty much one if the bigger reasons why the scene is struggling in Korea. That entire IP rights debacle did more damage to Korean E-Sports than anything that has happened in Korea =( Both sides gave up ground in the negotiations, who 'backed down' is quite irrelevant and highly subjective. It all depends on initial positions and outcome in relation what your goal was. That is a futile debate. My point was that two years ago KeSPA could do whatever they wanted and pretty much did. Now after the conflict they're forced to cooperate both with Blizzard and GOM(for a while at least). That is a new position for them. Of course KESPA were also douchebags about it cause they (supposedly/rumoredly) had the attitude "It's not like they can run SC2 without us" and probably did some underhanded shit. Blizzard gets mad due to KeSPA's BS attitude and this escalates down into a war where Blizzard eventually backs down because SC2 is tanking in korea despite all the money Blizzard had poured into it and they also realize KeSPA has no money.It's not completely blizzard's fault cause KeSPA is really bad at making money and the korean fans are also kind of douchey and refuse to pay for anything related to esports. So yeah Blizzard being greedy, KeSPA being incompetent/unprofessional. There you go. I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in. It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected. Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty. EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo
Im probably too close to several people at Riot to be close to an objective person on this but in order for LoL to be dethroned it would need a signifigant misstep to convince people to watch game a over game b and that hasnt happend and with the effort Riot puts into making there game a renowned e-sport it probably wont.
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On January 24 2012 15:08 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 12:41 dtz wrote:On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:On January 24 2012 09:03 wklbishop wrote:
[quote]
I remember those discussions something like 2 years ago now where people were posting about Blizzard's ridiculously strong position and how every Korean was going to play SC2 immediately no matter what so Kespa might as well give in.
It's kind of sad though that something that had so much potential in the Korean market became what it is today. Sure it's doing okay, but nowhere close to as big as anyone expected.
Of course, a lot of this is due to Blizzard's shitty marketing with the PC bangs dealings and all that jazz, which while they're definitely within their rights to do; it was absolutely shitty.
EDIT: On a side note, Milkis, you got a seriously bright future ahead of you. B/c damn you're smart. o-O It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke. Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway. Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports. Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now. That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other). The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time? I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views. There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game. There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month. OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host. Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company. I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot. I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management.
How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
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On January 24 2012 15:21 singul4rity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 15:08 boxturtle wrote:On January 24 2012 12:41 dtz wrote:On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:On January 24 2012 10:17 StarStruck wrote:
[quote]
It's more than just that though. The market has changed drastically as well. It's been said many times over. BW was all about the right timing. A total fluke.
Lightning didn't strike twice. Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again. I n terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway. Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports. Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now. That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other). The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time? I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views. There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game. There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month. OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host. Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company. I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot. I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management. How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising.
Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing.
However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money.
Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be.
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On January 24 2012 15:45 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 15:21 singul4rity wrote:On January 24 2012 15:08 boxturtle wrote:On January 24 2012 12:41 dtz wrote:On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you) Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference. On January 24 2012 10:25 Klonere wrote:
[quote]
Thank you for saying this,.its a point worth re-iterating. BW as a phenomenon will never ever ever ever happen again.
In terms of raw numbers, LoL is looking to be the heir to BW more than SC2 is, depending on how KeSPA and OGN play it. Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore. And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway. Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports. Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now. That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other). The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time? I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views. There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game. There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month. OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host. Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company. I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot. I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management. How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising. Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing. However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money. Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be.
Riot makes a TON of money off there game. Back when they came up with concept of "pay for characters but not really" approach and you can buy outfits I expected it to make far far less than it did but people will pay a forturne for a new set of clothes on a guy. I would have to say if it came down to a bidding war then LoL wins hands down. As a company Valve is way way bigger but I cant see a game company outbidding with profits from other games.
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I was sure this post was about SC2 and BW players/teams and the impact of them moving over to SC2, but seems it's really about LoL and DoTA2?
Based on GOM's (Mr Chae's) wording in the original article (baring in mind it's a translation), and the fact they've already changed the GSTL format, I believe this is evidence that they already have an agreement of some sort in place with Kespa and/or OGN.
I'm going to speculate wildly that this means the first stage of the real "BW Pro's are coming" is going to be a (or several) BW teams entry into the GSTL.
The next step will be an additional league run by OGN, and the current sc2 teams and GOM are hoping that they will be included in that (just as the BW teams will be able to enter GSTL).
That's my read 
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On January 23 2012 17:22 dAPhREAk wrote:
april 2012 -- will the elephant be right, or cry....?
the elephant is already crying, since it was a load of crap in the first place 
this is good news overall, bad news for some.
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I think 2012 will be the make it or break it year for sc2. For SC2 to survive we need korea and more importantly we need the BW pros/fans to switch to SC2 and not quit esport or follow the moba trend, also the next two expansions of SC2 will obviously play a major role in this.
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LOL is popular because its free and lots of RPG players also liked the game ( 10-18 year old population ).. SC2 viewers are very loyal and older , and skill wise SC2 is untouchable , you got to devote your life to it like normal sports its not like you can play like MVP/MC with a year training . Who ever watched SC2 or BW knows that its not possible , its actually impossible.
Dota , LOL , HON even blizzard Dota seems like moba games are a nice trend that will go on , maybe to stay maybe not , but i really dont see people following the scene for 2/3 years of the same thing over and over again... At least SC2 we get new maps every month and will get 2 new expansions (maybe more) that will make the game much more fresh and it will bring more players/viewers !
Blizzard should have made SC2 for consoles along with a mouse and a keyboard , Blizzard was not on console market but with D3 they seem very interested.
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On January 25 2012 05:01 tapk69 wrote:
LOL is popular because its free and lots of RPG players also liked the game ( 10-18 year old population ).. SC2 viewers are very loyal and older , and skill wise SC2 is untouchable , you got to devote your life to it like normal sports its not like you can play like MVP/MC with a year training . Who ever watched SC2 or BW knows that its not possible , its actually impossible.
Dota , LOL , HON even blizzard Dota seems like moba games are a nice trend that will go on , maybe to stay maybe not , but i really dont see people following the scene for 2/3 years of the same thing over and over again... At least SC2 we get new maps every month and will get 2 new expansions (maybe more) that will make the game much more fresh and it will bring more players/viewers !
Blizzard should have made SC2 for consoles along with a mouse and a keyboard , Blizzard was not on console market but with D3 they seem very interested.
Consoles are too prohibitive to esports IMO. Creative control is taken away from the community, the hardware is proprietary and likely to be locked down with an iron first (compared to PC), including software modification, and the game developed interacts with the games community by proxy through the proprietary network system of the console manufacturer. Which is why Valve doesn't support console TF2 as much (at all?). Microsoft either won't allow or can't distribute DLC in a way Valve wants or needs it to be.
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On January 24 2012 16:31 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 15:45 boxturtle wrote:On January 24 2012 15:21 singul4rity wrote:On January 24 2012 15:08 boxturtle wrote:On January 24 2012 12:41 dtz wrote:On January 24 2012 12:12 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 12:02 coolcor wrote:On January 24 2012 11:43 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On January 24 2012 10:55 Adreme wrote:On January 24 2012 10:39 Arkless wrote:
I keep on seeing in recent posts something along the lines of "Lower tier players need to make more(or a minimum to live/what have you)
Here is the thing with that, If you cant make a good enough living off of starcraft then pick another career. It's no different for any other sport honestly. Most Muay Thai fighters actually have to pay to compete when at lower levels. And even boxers fighting on ESPN get paid 200-300 for a fight that they trained for 6-8 weeks. I think this entitlement that lower tier players seem to have as far as getting paid more is rediculous. Especially when the money isn't in ESPORTS to pay everyone a minimum. Also , these are tournaments, not show matches. There is a difference.
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Only reason why people play LOL is because it's free. Lol had a decent year in esports with RIOT paying most of the tourney prize money. Once DOTA2 is retail, I doubt any smart pro would continue to play that imba piece of crap with ridiculous heroes anymore.
And of course the Starcraft players association. AKA "Pipe dream" Only reason why it worked with BW is because it was basically only one country that needed to do it. I doubt very much that if in Korea they made a SC2PA (which they tried and failed) teams in America like eg or teams like Fnatic in europe wouldn't be willing to join just simply because they don't need to. Nor is it really viable. GOMtv/MLG/IPL etc etc are a FOR PROFIT business. If they weren't making money they wouldn't be around. Simple as that, now if the SC2PA said every code a player deserves a minimum. Where is that money suppose to come from? Lol has had a signifigant headstart to build a massive fanbase and there ability to market there own game as an e-sport is something blizzard could take notes on which is odd considering how close some of the people at Riot and Blizzard are. I thought DoTA2 is the moba to bet on. Also, Korea is familiar with SC as brand, if the BW organizations and SC2 organizations work together instead of splitting the market, it could bold quite well. Also SC was one of the original game to help to define esports. People who don't play it even respect its competitiveness. Korea never played dota 1 and instead played a dota clone named chaos that is getting it's own dota 2 like remake. With a very small number of Koreans who care about dota or steam it will probably be very hard for dota 2 to make an impact in that country now that LoL is on tv. Korean talking about itvideo I would think thought that outside Korea Dota2 would be the go to moba. Does Korea care about that kind of stuff or is a more local scene? People talk about traditional BW sponsors not caring about the foreign scene, but now that SC is getting its big break everywhere else, I would have thought those 10 year old Korean organizations would like to get in on some of the SC action and support it as a whole. They would be the prominent scene globally for some time to come anyway. Dota/Dota2 has been / would be very popular with gamers in high population countries like China,Brazil,Russia,and SEA/ANZ region. But these areas are generally quite secluded from the general esports community. That is why although DOTA 1 has been really popular without any corporate support for the last 7-8 years or so, there is not really a central community. These countries are also not the usual target audience for sponsors that currently exists in Esports. Whereas LoL is more popular with US/Europe who undoubtedly has more exposure on the internet. And also appeal to advertisers / companies more. So, I believe Dota and LoL will split the market considering LoL's already existing huge popularity. The numbers don't lie. The top streamers of LoL regularly attract 10k a day and there are many of those. Tournament streams attract 200k+. More people play the game then WoW. The number is probably still less than those who play Dota1 ( China,Russia,Brazil remember) but it's hard to know the numbers for dota for now. That said, who knows if the massive dota community can somehow unite at least in terms of numbers ( unlikely in my opinion, in dota2, many players call for server segregations because many don't like to play with brazilians/russians because they only speak their own language and vice versa despite Valve's initial intention of making everyone play with each other). The Dota community does not have the collective togetherness that Starcraft community and LoL to a certain extent have I think you vastly underestimate the Dota2 community. Dota2 has an inticipation bubble like sc2. However, unlike sc2, Dota2 doesn't look likely to disappoint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a Dota2 invitational last year have 300k viewers on at the same time? I was under the impression that Dota2 had the most international interest out of all the e-sports games, despite it not being released yet. I thought they also boasted the most total views. There's also http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/36218-PGT_outlines_best_paying_games_of_2011 which says that Dota2 almost paid as much as sc2 in 2011 (sc2 paid the most). Considering that Dota2 isn't even released yet, it looks like it's quickly going to shove sc2 and LoL into niche markets when the general public gets to play the game. There were 5k+ people regularly watching some popular Dota2 streams when there were hardly 5k+ people able to play at the same time last month. OGN will show LoL, but I don't think anyone apart from a small Korean niche market will watch. There's really no point. The top LoL players aren't all Korean and probably won't be playing at O(LoL)L or whatever tournament they host. Another factor you've got to consider is the huge amount of goodwill that Valve has compared to Riot/Blizzard. Past simple infrastructure and massive amounts of people using steam, they also have huge popularity for being the people's gaming company. I'm assuming the e-sports scene will look like this in 2-3 years: 1. Dota2, 2. GW2, 3. insert X shooter(probably CS:GO), followed by HotS and LoL, both of which would be on life support from former BW teams with money and Riot. I play Sc2, LoL, and HoN, but I can't see HoN surviving, LoL maintaining dominance with only 200k+ viewers online (trust me, when large inert Asian/South American audiences start tuning in Dota2, it's going to change viewership forever) and Sc2 being fine with Blizzard's current management. How much of that Dota 2 total came from the tournament Valve ran? Considering that 1 million was the first place prize I would say all or almost all. Same story with the CoD total mentioned in that article. They also had a million dollar tournament. SC2 prizes have been much more consistent and self-supporting, not basically advertising. Yeah sc2 is self sustaining, and if e-sports became a thing of the past/niche sc2 would be the last man standing. However, Valve did put 1 million into the pot. Riot just put 5 million into this season's circut. There's probably going to be a massive bidding war over the dota-clone scene in terms of sponsor money. Riot knows it can lose it's entire e-sports investment if dota2 outbids them. Dota2 sees the opportunity to become what people thought sc2 would be. Riot makes a TON of money off there game. Back when they came up with concept of "pay for characters but not really" approach and you can buy outfits I expected it to make far far less than it did but people will pay a forturne for a new set of clothes on a guy. I would have to say if it came down to a bidding war then LoL wins hands down. As a company Valve is way way bigger but I cant see a game company outbidding with profits from other games.
I don't believe Dota2 is going to be free. There's much profit to be had and many rabid Valve fans on top of dota-clone fans. Sc2 sold how much? 5 million copies in the first month or something? If Dota2 sells anywhere near that much (I'm assuming it'll sell much more) they will have the profits to blow on a bidding war.
To be honest, Riot's F2P and funding of their e-sports scene is a great idea. However, Steam is an incredibly powerful tool, it's much stronger than Bnet 2.0 as a marketing indicator. The fact that someone is using Steam means they have money to blow on non-pirated games. Advertising Dota2/Dota2 tournaments to people with money can be a huge deal.
Starcraft 2 has the most established e-sports scene, possibly because people are willing to spend money which comes around to pay for players, team houses, and stuff. Ad revenues for gaming/tournament events aren't strong enough to fund the e-sports scene at large yet.
Now think about Valve and their Steam platform. They know their constituents have money. Heck, they could advertise their own games from Steam in Dota2 tournaments (it even hits the right audience, gamers buying games). I don't think anyone else has that kind of infrastructure. Not even Sc2. Dota2 has the potential to be the best parts of LoL and Sc2 and more in e-sports.
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I'm not sure why this article thread on SC2/BW switching is talking about lol/dota2esports. But w/e, i'll join in.
Dota2 will roflstomp it's way through the moba scene to be the main esport in that genre. Don't underestimate that it's a game by valve. (maybe the only one in the genre, though that's debatable if LoL keeps linking its client to tournaments, they'll at least get their own players maybe watching)
SC2 won't go away, Blizzard can't really fuck up much more than they have, and we're only growing. So there's that.
Fighters will stay small as esports, and some random team-based shooter will score mediocre views. Hopefully a good 1v1 shooter rises to the top, which actually might happen in the next 2-3 years and would be nice, but I won't hold my breath.
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It started because we were discussing OGN picking up LoL. To be honest, Starcraft 2 can't really die if the BW teams switch over.
However, I do see sc2's e-sport value plummeting due to the way Blizzard handles it's e-sport scene (they don't). CoD and Sc2 could have been something more, but we're seeing this awesome new model of Valve/Riot at work.
Blizzard has explicitly stated that they will not be doing what Valve/Riot are doing.
In the Korean scene, I see money going to sc2 and not LoL, because OGN is mostly a Korean channel, and they won't be able to manage global events to show to Korean audiences on a budget. Korean LoL players seem much less dedicated than Korean Sc2 players, and they haven't been playing LoL as long as their US/EU counterparts.
To be honest, I don't understand when people say "there's a huge amount of people wanting to see X e-sport in Korea." A lot of people I met didn't even know where the Gom studio was, and I didn't really bother to go there. I don't think e-sports is as strong in Korea as it was pre-BW matchfixing scandal. In Korea, there's much fun to be had, and e-sports doesn't exactly rank among to top 3 events.
I think everyone overestimates how far e-sports has come when they see Dreamhack with a couple thousand people in attendance. The scene has come pretty far, but so have stuff like: Disk Golf, Anime, and TCG. Those 3 things have come much farther than e-sports, and I think "staying alive in Korea" isn't a good metric of success.
I'm saying that I think Valve probably is the future of e-sports (other than online Poker I suppose) because they can advertise their games, while other venues/organizations are slaving away trying to find mainstream advertisers to grow the scene from niche to everyday.
Why I don't see sc2 having a resurgence is the sad reality that Korean TV channels aren't non-profit e-sport charities and they need to make money, which they do by catering to their mainly Korean audience, not try showing the world the wonder of MMA v DRG or Leenock v Jjakji.
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