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Dear David Tran,
1) How diligent should we be with our upkeep of drones?
2) Should we be trying to hit that "X number of drones to stop Y" strategy or is it more of a "feel?"
3) When playing ZvZ and we're shooting for Roach/Hydralisk composition vs. a Roach/Infestor composition, I feel that if I do not have a good amount of roaches (Say, just a little more than Hydralisks), they tend to die quickly, completely exposing the Hydralisks. Do you still advocate a 1:1 ratio or more like a 1.5:1 ratio (if that makes any sense)?
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On April 20 2012 15:29 romelako wrote:
Dear David Tran,
1) How diligent should we be with our upkeep of drones?
2) Should we be trying to hit that "X number of drones to stop Y" strategy or is it more of a "feel?"
3) When playing ZvZ and we're shooting for Roach/Hydralisk composition vs. a Roach/Infestor composition, I feel that if I do not have a good amount of roaches (Say, just a little more than Hydralisks), they tend to die quickly, completely exposing the Hydralisks. Do you still advocate a 1:1 ratio or more like a 1.5:1 ratio (if that makes any sense)?
1) Unsure of how to answer this.
2) Definitely. Since zerg works differently in terms of production, compared to the other races, making drones is a key part to stoping pushes, especially all ins. To give you an exact number, you would have to give me a specific situation. Generally it works in waves. You want to counter a push with the wave of units just poping out. This allows you to reacht he maximum number of drones before building nothing but units.
3) Be careful how you analyze your zvz games with mid-game combinations. It is so easy to just look at the game in terms of your army. This causes you to play the same strategy over and over, based on what you do, instead of what your opponent does. The number of hydralisks you need is in direct relation to the amount of tech he has also. If you are having too view roaches, and he overwhelms you with roaches, then it means he hardly has any infestors, and you have too many hydras. Likewise, if you have too many roaches, and not enough hydras, and he has too many infestors, and few roaches, you also lose.
Thanks for the comments. Shawn's away this weekend, new VoDs next week!
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seriously this is the most helpful thing i've found so far to help my game. HUGE thanks to you both! KEEP EM COMING! <3
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We shall do that. My schedule is very busy for the next 7 days.
I'm out of province from April 20 to April 22nd and leaving the country on April 23 returning on the 26th. I would expect more VODs to be completed next weekend.
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need more!!! let us know if you and david are casting again this weekend.
and I'm hopibg that during the summer you two can try to grace us with two episodes a week? I'd be forever grateful, and you might get 100 eps in a year that way ! 
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smwatkin / stoicregret, could you guys do a video of ZvZ showing what to do when the other guy goes muta? and you're not going mutas yourself?
would be really helpful. or if there's already a vid out there please let me know! cheers :-)
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On April 22 2012 02:49 jimbob615 wrote:
smwatkin / stoicregret, could you guys do a video of ZvZ showing what to do when the other guy goes muta? and you're not going mutas yourself?
would be really helpful. or if there's already a vid out there please let me know! cheers :-)
Check out zvz week at episode 8. I'm sure i've done plenty of these, as we are now hitting close to 75 VODs. But definitely, if you have a more specific question about this MU, i'd be happy to answer it.
Most of the time if you are opening heavy roaches, off two base, you can do a big roach/baneling bust to just kill him. If you have a 3rd up in time before the mutas come out, definitely deny his 3rd with ur roach army, and place spores down. Ideally u want roach/hydra/infestor with an emphasis on upgrades. As to which tech you should go first at lair tech, it really depends on the following:
You have to tell me what you are opening. Vs muta's isn't really a good way to approach how to beat it. Drone counts, openings by both players, how many bases you have, what strategy you are going, what map, how many mutas, mutas into what, etc...
Thanks for the comments. Keep posting ideas for our future VoDs.
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On April 22 2012 03:06 stoicRegret wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:49 jimbob615 wrote:
smwatkin / stoicregret, could you guys do a video of ZvZ showing what to do when the other guy goes muta? and you're not going mutas yourself?
would be really helpful. or if there's already a vid out there please let me know! cheers :-) Check out zvz week at episode 8. I'm sure i've done plenty of these, as we are now hitting close to 75 VODs. But definitely, if you have a more specific question about this MU, i'd be happy to answer it.
While the guy was asking a question that was already covered in previous videos, it is symptomatic of the problem where it's actually quite hard to find videos on a certain subject (eg I want to watch all stoic ZvT vids against helion openers). An idea might be to actually provide more stuff in the opening post. Eg:
* Current episode vids
[VIDEOS]
* Previous episode vids
[VIDEOS]
* CATEGORIZED SECTION:
- ZvZ:
- vs X
[VIDEOS]
- vs Y
[VIDEOS]
- vs Z
[VIDEOS]
-ZvP
..
..
etc
I know the grouping would be rough, and there may be repetition in some sections, but many people just want to be able to say "let's watch all ZvT of stoic vs no gas openings" etc, and it would be extremely helpful to have those relevant episodes categorised and grouped together in one place. Right now we must search through the youtube items that you guys have uploaded, which is both difficult and arduous. eg when looking for proxy rax stuff, it took me 40 minutes to find the episode where I remember you defended an EXTREMELY scary proxy 2 rax triple bunker attempt (on shakuras I think), and I already knew what I was looking for!
Revamping the thread OP will obviously be a mighty pain in the ass, but I think it would be very helpful. I think it could also help viewer numbers too, as people see just how much good content you guys have produced (something which isn't immediately obvious at all!).
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thanks regret, i'm thinking back to a game i played in zvz (diamond) where i was kinda caught in no man's land. my opponent had 12 mutas out, around the 10:30 mark. i had roach speed, so i pushed out with my roaches to deny his 3rd, but they just seemed to die to his mutas and lings on the long trek over (it was on shakuras), and it felt like i'd already lost at that point. however, in hindsight i think my roach army was a lot smaller than it could have been, so i'll put it down to macro for now .
i have another question though about zvz, something i've been having a lot of difficulty with:
say i open with a build like 15 hatch, or some kind of standard defensive opening with another base. i scout the opponent and see that he's opened with a similar build. i send my overlords away so they don't get sniped, and proceed to build either drones, lings or spine crawlers (usually drones).
it's probably a very common question, but how do you decide when to build defensive units and when to drone? for example, in this scenario should i always get a baneling nest? but having said that, often when i get a nest and morph a few banes, my opponent smartly sees this and skips banes altogether and gets a drone advantage.
on the flipside, since i find it difficult to know what my opponent is up to in that awkward stage when u both have two bases without full saturation, i often get caught out when my opponent pools up 50 lings out of sight and then charges. it's a dillemma where if i invest in a spine + banes, i'm safe against allins but behind against someone playing more greedy.
i'm going to watch a lot more of your zvz vids right now, but if you have any tips on what to base your decisions on that'd help me heaps
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On April 23 2012 00:04 jimbob615 wrote:thanks regret, i'm thinking back to a game i played in zvz (diamond) where i was kinda caught in no man's land. my opponent had 12 mutas out, around the 10:30 mark. i had roach speed, so i pushed out with my roaches to deny his 3rd, but they just seemed to die to his mutas and lings on the long trek over (it was on shakuras), and it felt like i'd already lost at that point. however, in hindsight i think my roach army was a lot smaller than it could have been, so i'll put it down to macro for now . i have another question though about zvz, something i've been having a lot of difficulty with: say i open with a build like 15 hatch, or some kind of standard defensive opening with another base. i scout the opponent and see that he's opened with a similar build. i send my overlords away so they don't get sniped, and proceed to build either drones, lings or spine crawlers (usually drones). it's probably a very common question, but how do you decide when to build defensive units and when to drone? for example, in this scenario should i always get a baneling nest? but having said that, often when i get a nest and morph a few banes, my opponent smartly sees this and skips banes altogether and gets a drone advantage. on the flipside, since i find it difficult to know what my opponent is up to in that awkward stage when u both have two bases without full saturation, i often get caught out when my opponent pools up 50 lings out of sight and then charges. it's a dillemma where if i invest in a spine + banes, i'm safe against allins but behind against someone playing more greedy. i'm going to watch a lot more of your zvz vids right now, but if you have any tips on what to base your decisions on that'd help me heaps
I would definitely look at zvz in terms of 2 main goals: droning and agression. Now the reason i say agression is because in zvz, 90% of scouting before lair tech is done through agression. Ideally, if i can just morph and overseer, i can see exactly what i want to see. However, at teir 1, the absolute best way to scout in zvz is agression.
Agression does 2 major things that contribute to good scouting. First, it is the easiest way to get into his base and engage his army. This tells you whether his army is larger or smaller, and therefore, if he made drones or units. Second, and more importantly, this forces him to make units. If say, you are both at 24 drones, but now you made lings, and instead he droned up to 34. So, in most match ups, this is bad because he is now ahead 10 drones. However, due to the volitle nature of ZvZ, this 10 drone lead will mean that your attack is sure to do some damage. Scouting + drone kills , and if u drone behind this, you are now even or close to even!
So to answer your question about defensive banelings, do not make defensive banelings! Agression is key! the only reason you want to be defensive in zvz is if you are playing someone significantly worse than you, in a manner that no matter how much of a lead he has in the early game, you will win because you macro is 2x better. There is no way of knowing whehter 50 lings are coming at you unless you actualy see 50 lings come at you, becasue eggs don't show what they are building until they pop. Most extremely good ZvZ players will only make defensive banelings on maps like metalopolis, in which case the rush distance is so small (especially close air spawn) that if you do get attacked, you do not have time to make reactionary banelings. Also, because the rush distance is so small, defensive banelings is essentially offensive banelings, because you can just walk them over and be agressive.
The moment you find yourself with a bunch of defensive banelings for no reason, and cannot be agressive, i suggest spining up and lair teching rediculously quick to go into mutas. Otherwise, be agresive!
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ZvT, when I watch people go the 4 queen opener, it seems to deter a hellion user from going in with his 4-6 hellions, but at my diamond level, people always seem to just run them in, and I tend to take a lot of damage. I feel I should be able to defend with just the queens, but I often just die. Am I correct in that I should be able to hold off the hellions until lingspeed (I go triple gas at about 42 food) with only queens, or do I need to get a spinecrawler?
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On April 24 2012 23:14 Catatafish wrote:
ZvT, when I watch people go the 4 queen opener, it seems to deter a hellion user from going in with his 4-6 hellions, but at my diamond level, people always seem to just run them in, and I tend to take a lot of damage. I feel I should be able to defend with just the queens, but I often just die. Am I correct in that I should be able to hold off the hellions until lingspeed (I go triple gas at about 42 food) with only queens, or do I need to get a spinecrawler?
You are correct! If they decide to just run in, it is possible. However, the key is to retain 3-4 slow lings made from the start of the game. Use them as a blocker. Even if he runs in, he will lose a helion, and from there, losing up to 5 drones is a win for the zerg. If it is 6 + helions, then it is dangerous. Therefore, when i see more than 4 helions, i build a 2nd spine, or block off more diligently.
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Dear David,
You say you advocate an aggressive style in ZvZ for the purposes of scouting and to potentially kill your opponent, but how do players like IdrA (namely in the game you had with him) get away with playing such defensive-macro styles without getting killed? I noticed in that game he did a lot of things blindly. Could it possibly be that he's got enough insight on the matchup and enough sense to know when he's safe and when he's not? Obviously IdrA sits on the top of GM the entire time so it's obvious he's got a great grasp on the matchup.
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On April 25 2012 01:55 romelako wrote:
Dear David,
You say you advocate an aggressive style in ZvZ for the purposes of scouting and to potentially kill your opponent, but how do players like IdrA (namely in the game you had with him) get away with playing such defensive-macro styles without getting killed? I noticed in that game he did a lot of things blindly. Could it possibly be that he's got enough insight on the matchup and enough sense to know when he's safe and when he's not? Obviously IdrA sits on the top of GM the entire time so it's obvious he's got a great grasp on the matchup.
Idra does not play a defensive macro style. It might seem as such, since when playing against top koreans as of late (the last 8 months), he has been cheesed and build order countered at the very beginning of the game. Playing catch up in ZvZ is very tedious and defensive.
Idra favours baneling openings, off 14/14 and 15 hatch openings. This is extremely aggressive in comparason to someone who prefers roach openings (stephano, nestea). Also, the manner in which he goes banelings is aggressive. A real defensive ZvZ style would be Losira. An example is seen when he is one of the only players who would open baneling nest before speed when opening 15 hatch vs 14/14. This means he has no speed, and his banelings are truely defensive.
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I see what you're saying. So, do you believe that a faster hatch than your opponent (15h vs. 14/14) merits unit production as a defensive measure against a ling all-in? Since you're up a hatch, you're somewhat "ahead" in the sense that if he expands, you'll have more efficient mining for a longer time. And if you're ahead, you should make units. I find that opening 15 hatch into speedling is very susceptible to mass ling all-in and defending with slowlings, queens, and a spine crawler, for me at least, has proven to be insufficient in dealing with this strategy. I'm specifically talking about 15h vs. any strat where they get their pool and gas sooner than you (14g/14p or a pool hatch build). Their speed kicks in way before yours does and a good player will prevent any slowlings from scouting. In this delicate part of the game, how can u really know if u can drone or make units? Is this just the coinflip aspect of the matchup?
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On April 25 2012 03:58 romelako wrote:
I see what you're saying. So, do you believe that a faster hatch than your opponent (15h vs. 14/14) merits unit production as a defensive measure against a ling all-in? Since you're up a hatch, you're somewhat "ahead" in the sense that if he expands, you'll have more efficient mining for a longer time. And if you're ahead, you should make units. I find that opening 15 hatch into speedling is very susceptible to mass ling all-in and defending with slowlings, queens, and a spine crawler, for me at least, has proven to be insufficient in dealing with this strategy. I'm specifically talking about 15h vs. any strat where they get their pool and gas sooner than you (14g/14p or a pool hatch build). Their speed kicks in way before yours does and a good player will prevent any slowlings from scouting. In this delicate part of the game, how can u really know if u can drone or make units? Is this just the coinflip aspect of the matchup?
Don't scout with slow lings, you are losing army value. Block your ramp with queens.
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Since getting sc2 gears I have had a +60% win rate against terran and protoss and a 42% win rate against zerg. ZvZ is also my most common match up by far, because luck and I do not get along well together.
From looking at the above posts it seems a lot of people here are goin g 15 hatch (myself included) and are having some trouble defending aggressive openings from opponents.
Is there any way you could feature some more (2 minimum all 4 would be MAD BALLER!!!) ZvZs in a future episode? More specifically games where your opponent does some sort of all in that you defend perfectly.
Either way, LOVE the replays and I have gone from plat rank 10 to top 8 diamond in the past month mainly due to your vods and my increasing APM
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That's not a problem. ZvZ is probably David's best matchup
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PS. David finally played enough games to get a spot in GM, lol
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TolOx.jpg)
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Let's hope he doesn't REGRET that decision...huehuehue...
So, Shawn...how are the new VOD's coming along? ^^
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EPT
