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Discussing the controversy and stating your opinions in a constructive way is fine, but there will be bans for any player/organization bashing without anything to substantiate it. |
On January 19 2012 01:21 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:18 dezmathio wrote:On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
I don't think that's specifically the issue, it just seems like Coach Lee blows things out of proportion. But I agree with you that he has the right to be angry if the player doesn't respect the contract. But public outcry over it? Nobody is gonna hate the player for leaving, only the team he is leaving/that coach. Just seems unprofessional and high-school ish This is e-sports. Public outcry is the ONLY way to get things done. As I have demonstrated a few times. Its impossible to get things done behind the scenes nowadays, people ignore you, say things like "so what, what are you going to do", "if you sue me I'll sue you so ner"... The beauty of the internet and multiple jurisdictions. The one thing that hits people where it hurts is bad PR. So its the only way to really get peoples attention.
I agree completely.
With this event occurring, alive will probably suffer more than anyone.
He now has no team, he won't be able to join fnatic without significant damage to his reputation for the duration of his career.
Fnatic might try to minimize the damage to them by denying this, however if what Coach Lee said is true about possessing evidence, they would be better off making the apology now. They will take flack, but less then they would otherwise, as well as hopefully salvage Alive's reputation and clear TSL's name.
The way the sides are acting right now, it appears the credibility of this evidence will be pivotal.
Also someone mentioned something about snooping? This is a business and all those computers are company property, so to say. Not to mention I haven't seen any reason to believe this evidence arrived FROM inspecting alive's computer by coach lee. This is a poor excuse in an attempt to deter attention away from dishonest behavior.
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On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause.
yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law.
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Seems to me like every party is involved in some underhand business here.
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On January 19 2012 01:29 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause. yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law.
Took the bait. Edited.
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On January 19 2012 01:31 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:29 IdrA wrote:On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause. yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law. Yeah players don't have a right to privacy
but that's a whole another problem, which i believe coach Lee is at fault. But with the matter at hand, aLive and Fanatic is obviously in the wrong
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I dont think this is real. Its more drama kicking. TSL is pissed but i feel like "PLAYERS" should be able to choose where they want to go. If Alive or anyone else talked to TSL saying they want to leave first. THAN who cares where they go next. if they got deals before hand why noT?!
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On January 19 2012 01:29 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause. yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law.
I'd assume (although I've never had a contract with a team so I'm very likely wrong) there's some sort of clause regarding player privacy. Even if there isn't, surely it would break some sort of law?
This sounds (somewhat) relevant.
My point is that, if Coach Lee is so willing to enforce the contract to the letter (completely disregarding previous conversations with aLive apparently), then aLive should be willing to enforce it himself. If Coach Lee has broken a law by reading his personal Skype chats (not saying that he has broken a law by doing that, but surely there's some sort of protection against it) then aLive should fight back instead of just trying to get this to blow over as fast as possible.
I think all parties are equally guilty fyi. I just think that Coach Lee's taking this a bit too far based on what aLive is saying.
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United Kingdom38146 Posts
lol are there really some people acting as though fxo boss doesn't know what he's talking about on issues like this ><
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On January 19 2012 01:32 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:31 Witten wrote:On January 19 2012 01:29 IdrA wrote:On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause. yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law. Yeah players don't have a right to privacy but that's a whole another problem, which i believe coach Lee is at fault. But with the matter at hand, aLive and Fanatic is obviously in the wrong
I'd say it's not that obvious seeing as it has sparked a quite lively discussion. 
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On January 19 2012 00:43 bluQ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 00:41 Kich wrote:On January 19 2012 00:37 Waxangel wrote:
updated, TSL added another twist with a counter-argument to Fnatic's statement WOO! More wild accusations by Coach Lee, this time he's got evidence! :| ... Good thing in a few days this will blow over and no one will care until it happens again. He claims he got evidence which he doesn't want to share yet. Thats what i call "empty threat". "Other teamates left and I didn't have good opinion about the team. There was some selfish thoughts as well. I thought I was getting no benefit from staying in the team so I wanted to clearly state that I wanted to leave. " So Coach Lee's actions are just a try to undermine the free-will of his players since they are running off. Instead of questioning why so many players talk not good about TSL he throws around accusations. This is just a showing of a weak personality.
If Alive is correct in his suspicion that Coach Lee obtained his chatlog through nefarious means then Lee might be hesitant to publicly release his proof for fear of the negative PR that might encourage. As it stands, that claim is currently as dubious as many others in this thread.
On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
I think (most) people agree that while Coach Lee's response is justified and that while he may be the victim, this issue brings up many questions about how Coach Lee runs his team. He may not be an evil-dictator as some portray him, but fans of TSL have a right to be upset as the very players who made them fans are leaving in droves. At least that's the gist I'm picking up.
I'd also like to point out that you and your organization have built up a lot of clout through your articles and the general conduct of your team. If this was the first weird incident in Lee's/TSL's history I'd like to think that this thread would be far more forgiving (but of course this is the internet, so probably not)
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Team Liquid.
WE KNOW DRAMA.
User was warned for this post
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On January 19 2012 01:08 brachester wrote:
i think we still need to wait for the statement from coach Lee before you guys bashing him.
...Another statement? Statement number three, you mean?
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Another thing to note is the industry is still young.
There will be loopholes in contracts, there will be theft (some events and teams have already been exposed of this), there will be foul play.
Until it stabilizes financially and professionally, it is up to us to determine what kind of community we want this to develop into.
Are we okay with teams stealing players from each other utilizing loopholes or trickery, or possibly without honest and proper discussion?
Maybe we are as a majority, I personally am not.
We should show teams and organizations that do not act professionally that we do not support or condone such behavior.
I'm not saying grab the pitch forks here, we still don't know the whole situation.
I'm saying it's up to us to make it clear what we expect from these organizations.
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On January 19 2012 01:21 FXOpen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:18 dezmathio wrote:On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
<brain explode>
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
I don't think that's specifically the issue, it just seems like Coach Lee blows things out of proportion. But I agree with you that he has the right to be angry if the player doesn't respect the contract. But public outcry over it? Nobody is gonna hate the player for leaving, only the team he is leaving/that coach. Just seems unprofessional and high-school ish This is e-sports. Public outcry is the ONLY way to get things done. As I have demonstrated a few times. Its impossible to get things done behind the scenes nowadays, people ignore you, say things like "so what, what are you going to do", "if you sue me I'll sue you so ner"... The beauty of the internet and multiple jurisdictions. The one thing that hits people where it hurts is bad PR. So its the only way to really get peoples attention.
I will also add that this is precisely why I think IM is so insistent on waiting for the "right" partner to come to them. I mean, how much do you think MVP, who is young and can travel anywhere, is worth to foreign teams? IM is just trying to protect their own players in their own way.
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On January 19 2012 01:31 Witten wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:29 IdrA wrote:On January 19 2012 01:12 Jimmeh wrote:
aLive should really read his contract, or hire an attorney to do it. Coach Lee reading his private Skype chats should surely violate some existing clause. yes the my management is not allowed to read my skype conversations clause. a very basic part of contract law. Yeah players don't have a right to privacy
for all we know he left it open and polt/lee/whoever saw it, told his coach and he got mad. i seriously doubt he is checking all of his players computers when they're asleep, and no one can confirm or deny that he is (unless you live in the TSL house you don't know the specific details).
once coach lee finds out it's not like he can't take any sort of action just because it's a skype chatlog.
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Gotta say. I don't really understand why both times it is TSL that has these 'issues'.
Seems more like they are making scape-goats for their players wanting to leave the team and go elsewhere where they could do other things?
Dunno, I find it rather interesting that both times it was a 'backhanded' 'underhanded' deal, conversation behind Coach Lee and with no formal channel though. Didn't think fnatic was like that, then again, didn't think EG was either; and wasn't it proven EG wasn't in the wrong with how they aquired Puma? (Correct me if I am wrong).
Either way, more drama, only in E-Sports do we have this sort of wheeler-dealer backstage issue.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 19 2012 01:26 hyperknight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 01:15 FXOpen wrote:
I just don't understand this thread at all. Like.. A player doesnt respect a contract. All of a sudden coach lee is a control freak douche? What?
Really?
I hope no player breaks my contract, cos then if I fight for my rights, I will apparently be some sort of criminal control freak.
1) You don't own your players. They're free to talk to anybody they like, obviously without breaching their contract. If FXO wanted to recruit IdrA, the logical thing to do would be to approach IdrA first and see if he was interested before approaching the team/manager. I imagine that maybe what have happened when Coach Lee found out. And there's no chance of aLive ever breaching his contract - if he ever wants to leave TSL, fnatic or he will have to pay some sort of penalty (for him to continue playing competitively in Korea) to "buy him out of his contract" which is what every esport team does for any player - irrespective of whether its SC2 or CS or DoTA. 2) Fnatic hasn't signed or come to any official agreement with aLive so far irrespective of whether alive is "sure" that fnatic will pick him up. Fnatic's statement did say that they were trying to negotiate some stuff out with Coach Lee. So Coach Lee broke the fundamental rule of a non-disclosure agreement when talking or negotiating with any business organization. 3) If you snoop on your player's skype convos or facebook msg inboxes, you're always gonna be a criminal control freak.
1.) There are procedures when discussing player contracts. In every professional sport, you approach the team first to inform them of your interest and only then are you allowed to discuss with the player. This is to ensure that there is no "tapping up", or, convincing a player to quit the team (or find a reason to quit the team) or demand to be traded without the original team knowing about the other team's interest. You have no knowledge of contract procedures if you think that teams should be allowed to talk to anyone they please and make offers. It is illegal in every sport if aLive had left TSL for "personal reasons" and then suddenly joined Fnatic (having had a pre-arrangement with Fnatic, if only verbally). Sheesh.
2.) This is true, and this is why aLive was an idiot. Fnatic had promised to sign him through the translator, but without anything on paper Fnatic can still back out because of this shit storm. And the agreement that Fnatic were talking about was about the team house and cooperation between teams, which had already broken down. We do not know if there was a non-disclosure agreement so you can't claim that Coach Lee did anything wrong in revealing it.
3.) Coach Lee's method is unknown, but if he did steal the chat log then his evidence should be inadmissible in courts.
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On January 19 2012 01:17 Azzur wrote:
Btw, this is really offtopic but how come TeamLiquid ESPORTS only has 1 post???
and is a marine. I always ask that every time they post something but I never get an answer 
Probably because it's special ^^
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Alright dedication pulls through! Translated during class. Fuller and better interview than the one I posted a bit back
Interview from This Is Game.
There was an article related to you today, what thoughts do you have on it?
I know firstly that I was in the wrong and I clearly said that to Coach Lee and Coach Lee said that he understood. But he said that he must get the reparation fee. I contacted him on Sunday and he said that to the reporters he said that it ended well with the fee being received so I didn't need to worry. So this is what I thought I knew was bewildered by the article that came up on my game day. I guess he's saying that he understands in word only.
What is the part where you think you did wrong?
Cross contract seems be an over reaction, as I haven't made a contract yet. I received an offer from the translator last Sunday and on Monday he asked if I wanted to talk to the Fnatic manager and talked in detail. Later Coach Lee called me over and showed me the printed out copy of the conversation. Seeing as how the conversation was done in Skype on my computer I wonder how he got it. However I know I was in the wrong so I apologized and asked him to understand.
What do you think was the problem?
The fact that I didn't talk to the coach and talked to Fnatic. As for switching team, I first wanted to leave the team and then go to Fnatic. However Coach Lee found out before I told him and I think that soured him. That's why I apologized to him and prepared for the things that will happen. Many TSL players left before and we did have a contract in name after Puma left. When Clide and others left Coach said if there was any problems you could leave as well. I wanted to leave then but due to personal reasons I said I'll stay a bit longer but did not want to be a team mate. At the time I thought the coach accepted that but I guess he didn't
Was the talk with Fnatic after you decided to leave the team?
When Killer and Clide said that they wanted to leave me and JYP said that we wanted to leave too. I thought it would be bad to continue to stay with this team so I wanted to leave and there were good offers.
Until when does the contract with TSL last?
Until July
Despite that why did you want to leave the team?
Other teamates left and I didn't have good opinion about the team. There was some selfish thoughts as well. I thought I was getting no benefit from staying in the team so I wanted to clearly state that I wanted to leave.
However because it is a contract, it requires the consent of both parties. Were there no progression and talks on that?
The coach found the talks before I could talk to him about it. Because he knew about the whole thing I could not bear to bring it up. He also said there something he wanted to talk about before talking about the whole thing. That part I know I was problematic in many ways. I did not follow through the contract. I think was young and thoughtless. If you suggested that I was blinded by the prospect money, I cannot counter that.
As contract is involved we have to mention reparation fees. Are there any provisions?
Yes there is. Thus that why he (Coach Lee) is trying to get the reparation fee out of me. I knew that the (news) article will have nuances of how there will be reparation fee and even if there was such a fee he (Coach Lee) said that we should maintain good terms. Because of this I was frankly surprised at the article mentioning double teaming and reparation fees.
Despite all this you are now listed as teamless. If you have pay the reparation fee how much is it?
10 Million Won. (around $8760 though that seems way too high)
Did Fnatic mention that they will cover the reparation fee?
Not quite concrete but I think they mentioned they will cover it as a transfer fee
How will the contract with Fnatic continue?
For the contract to happen this event needs to be finished in someway. I think this should be so. The talks have undergone somewhat of progress already
However a contract is a contract
I want to leave because I feel like this isn't it no matter how long I stay. I will pay the reparation fee even if it means emptying my coffers. I wanted to handle this with my money and the money I'll receive from Fnatic. But I'm confused because the term dual contract was mentioned first.
Tell us what you mean to do clearly
In the worst case scenario I am thinking about going to the court as Coach Lee mentioned in the article. However I hope this doesn't happen and we can handle this well. However the situation is already bad. I also feel of just paying and being done with it.
Fnatic might not take you in
That is true. However Fnatic also played a part in this situation and hope this doesn't happen. I am able to endure this situation because of the belief that Fnatic will take me in.
Fnatic is a foreign team. Don't you there might have been miscommunication from the translator?
Of course I think that. I came out due to money but even if that situation happens there's nothing I can do but to endure.
Do you have any other comments on this situation?
I admit fully to the mistakes and wrongs I did. However honestly today's article was quite bewildering. Even so, I do not want this to end on a sour note. I hope the fans will not attack/criticize too vehemently. I hope they can see this well. I know I created this incident but I hope they think about the feelings of the player and the coach.
*MY THOUGHTS*
I still think Coach Lee searching player's personal computer is a big no. The printed out paper of the conversation is probably the evidence he has mentioned as a threat.
Fnatic. What the hell? The conversation between the translation and Alive was anything but amiable purposes. It was blatantly about scouting the player. Fess up and this mess will be almost over.
TSL. What the hell is going over there that players want to leave even at the cost of breaking the contract?
On January 19 2012 00:58 jellyjello wrote:
edit: nvm...someone already beat me to it. I hate translating
Don't say that, you would have posted it before me if I didn't have to post the short version of it. It's the thoughts that count Though I understand the feeling, I remember loosing by couple of posts translating the FD incident (AND THAT WAS LONG)
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Coach lee is at it again!
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EPT
