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On January 13 2012 08:00 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:48 Angelbelow wrote:On January 13 2012 07:38 Zombo Joe wrote:What about  Machine and  Tyler? What about them? Both are big time community figures (Tyler <3) Both are -marketable -popular with the fans -Actually have results-great teammates -great personalities -Knowledgeable when it comes to the game. -etc! And although both players have minimal success, even a ton of poor results can be beneficial for sponsors b/c at the end of the day, players are supposed to market their sponsors. When I look at Machine and Tyler's TLPD pages, the volume of games stands out to me as that's a ton of <insert sponsor plug> going out. When you look at cArn's page, he's participated in like 5 total events. If he's not winning or attending anything, why is it so unreasonable for a team to drop him?
Its not unreasonable at all, I'm surprised carn lasted this long given his lack of success and his lack of practice. I would be shocked any mid-level and higher team would even consider him.
I'm not really a carn or esahara fan but I've NEVER understood the hype around carn. While esahara just seems like a team thats trying to be relevant - dropping carn , picking up check, maka and naama is a good start.
+ Show Spoiler +
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sooo he doesnt think he ready and you guys let him go?
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On January 13 2012 08:05 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:00 ssxsilver wrote:On January 13 2012 07:48 Angelbelow wrote:On January 13 2012 07:38 Zombo Joe wrote:What about Machine and Tyler? What about them? Both are big time community figures (Tyler <3) Both are -marketable -popular with the fans -Actually have results-great teammates -great personalities -Knowledgeable when it comes to the game. -etc! And although both players have minimal success, even a ton of poor results can be beneficial for sponsors b/c at the end of the day, players are supposed to market their sponsors. When I look at Machine and Tyler's TLPD pages, the volume of games stands out to me as that's a ton of <insert sponsor plug> going out. When you look at cArn's page, he's participated in like 5 total events. If he's not winning or attending anything, why is it so unreasonable for a team to drop him? Its not unreasonable at all, I'm surprised carn lasted this long given his lack of success and his lack of practice. I would be shocked any mid-level and higher team would even consider him. I'm not really a carn or esahara fan but I've NEVER understood the hype around carn. While esahara just seems like a team thats trying to be relevant. + Show Spoiler +
Wait there was hype for cArn?
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Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:27 magnaflow wrote:On January 12 2012 20:58 Ruscour wrote:On January 12 2012 20:57 mazqo wrote:On January 12 2012 20:54 Ruscour wrote:
edit: i was quite mean.
best of luck to cArn, keep at it...as long as he's still practicing hard i do not understand this decision. Why should he keep at it? He has practiced over a year full time and still isnt that good. He seriously should stop trying to play this game professionally, he will never be top player. Not with that attitude. Would you say the same about Jinro? I would. Other then the early GSL and MLG Dallas what has Jinro done? Nothing, he's just your average foreigner who lives in Korea. Point is that a player who may not be doing well currently does not necessarily not have the potential to make a breakthrough or improve, such as Jinro has done. Thus, carn still has a chance to get good.
People who are currently in diamond league and started playing sc2 as their first PC game and first RTS game also have a potential to be pro if they develop the work ethic. That doesn't mean they'll be pro soon, but let's not discredit possibilities.
Sure cArn might be able to achieve something at some point, but when you hire a player as a professional with salary etc, you expect things out of him. I doubt they were all fine and dandy with cArn, until all of a sudden he didn't sign up for GSL qualies and OMG REALLY? KICKED GTFO! It was probably a last straw sort of deal. ofc I know nothing of the situation at all, so take my words with a grain of salt as I'm completely uninformed, but strategical moves are usually made strategically. Rather than using all their money on someone who never does anything, how about use it to recruit someone who has and might continue to do stuff?
Besides, I don't understand this whole thing about "after getting kicked out of GOM House I couldn't practice for 5-6 months". Did he not have a computer? Does every pro player hate his guts for some reason? Unless 1 or both of those are true, he might have a harder time training, but seriously? that's the most pathetic excuse I've ever seen. There are a bunch of pros who don't live in a team house, who train daily on ladder, through game analysis, and through pro gamer friends.
I used to be quite involved in management, and although there are probably things that I don't know about the situation, these things in front of me in this thread only, I discredit cArn more than eSahara. Especially after recruiting Maka, they have better opportunities to look out for.
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Jesus this makes me sick. He is probably the most passionate esports player i know, there obviously is a bigger reason behind this
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On January 13 2012 08:05 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:00 ssxsilver wrote:On January 13 2012 07:48 Angelbelow wrote:On January 13 2012 07:38 Zombo Joe wrote:What about Machine and Tyler? What about them? Both are big time community figures (Tyler <3) Both are -marketable -popular with the fans -Actually have results-great teammates -great personalities -Knowledgeable when it comes to the game. -etc! And although both players have minimal success, even a ton of poor results can be beneficial for sponsors b/c at the end of the day, players are supposed to market their sponsors. When I look at Machine and Tyler's TLPD pages, the volume of games stands out to me as that's a ton of <insert sponsor plug> going out. When you look at cArn's page, he's participated in like 5 total events. If he's not winning or attending anything, why is it so unreasonable for a team to drop him? Its not unreasonable at all, I'm surprised carn lasted this long given his lack of success and his lack of practice. I would be shocked any mid-level and higher team would even consider him. I'm not really a carn or esahara fan but I've NEVER understood the hype around carn. While esahara just seems like a team thats trying to be relevant. + Show Spoiler +
Edit: Content removed..Irrelevant.
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On January 13 2012 06:58 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:50 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:44 Duravi wrote:
Sorry but being a pro means you have to perform at some point. I give him credit for going after his dream but he obviously lacks the talent to accomplish it. Just as not everyone can be a physicist, not everyone can be a pro starcraft player. How exactly can you conclude that he obviously lacks the talent? How often have you even seen him play? He has no results. At what point does that start to matter? You can't just keep saying some player has great potential but has yet to perform up to it even once for year after year.
I'm not saying anything about his potential, you're the one saying he has zero talent without knowing anything about him as a player. Why would you talk about anyone's talent at anything without ever seeing them in action? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
As for at what point do results start to matter - I would say nothing less than a year in an ideal training environment. He didn't have an year, he didn't have ideal environment, and his team obviously did not do a lot to get the most out of him, which is something that all serious teams will work hard at. Which begs the question - why even sign him in the first place?
Edit: irrelevant as well. xp
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People who are comparing Jinro to cArn are retarded and I shouldn't even have to explain why.
User was warned for this post
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dang, original poster should edit the statement. some grammar and spelling errors and the tone, at least translated into english, seems a bit aggressive.
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On January 13 2012 08:30 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 06:58 Duravi wrote:On January 13 2012 06:50 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:44 Duravi wrote:
Sorry but being a pro means you have to perform at some point. I give him credit for going after his dream but he obviously lacks the talent to accomplish it. Just as not everyone can be a physicist, not everyone can be a pro starcraft player. How exactly can you conclude that he obviously lacks the talent? How often have you even seen him play? He has no results. At what point does that start to matter? You can't just keep saying some player has great potential but has yet to perform up to it even once for year after year. I'm not saying anything about his potential, you're the one saying he has zero talent without knowing anything about him as a player. Why would you talk about anyone's talent at anything without ever seeing them in action? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. As for at what point do results start to matter - I would say nothing less than a year in an ideal training environment. He didn't have an year, he didn't have ideal environment, and his team obviously did not do a lot to get the most out of him, which is something that all serious teams will work hard at. Which begs the question - why even sign him in the first place? Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:10 Angelbelow wrote:
Lmao. And theres more stuff like this on the first few pages. Saying that somebody is passionate is hardly "hype". Considering what he did and how much he put in to play Starcraft in Korea, I'm pretty sure he qualifies for being one of the most passionate players.
Passion and hard work are closely related. You can't be passionate and lazy or hard working but apathetic. If carn was truly passionate than he would be hard working as well. The combination of hard work and passion will undoubtedly lead to success and only in the rarest case is this false. So either carn is a passionate and hard working individual who just happens to unlucky, or hes not really passionate or hard working at all. As you probably guessed based on our past conversations, I'm a realist. I always assume that having passion and great work ethic will lead to success. Until proven otherwise, my opinion is that people who fail to achieve results aren't truly passionate and hard working.
Btw, this is a pretty good article for those that are interested: http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/carn-out-esahara-staying-korea
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On January 13 2012 08:07 Shinta) wrote:
Besides, I don't understand this whole thing about "after getting kicked out of GOM House I couldn't practice for 5-6 months". Did he not have a computer? Does every pro player hate his guts for some reason? Unless 1 or both of those are true, he might have a harder time training, but seriously? that's the most pathetic excuse I've ever seen. There are a bunch of pros who don't live in a team house, who train daily on ladder, through game analysis, and through pro gamer friends.
I don't really understand that either, and it seems like a weird thing to lie about or use as an excuse because it just doesn't seem to make sense.
I feel kinda bad for cArn though; I remember seeing him waaaay back during the first few GSL opens. It was amazing to me that he would go there without having any real support the way most of the other foreigners had either Liquid or EG behind them. I don't think I've ever actually seen him play though... and if he WAS in any tournament I watched, he must not have gotten far. It's a shame, because he's obviously pretty dedicated.
Is there no chance of cArn getting picked up by a Korean team? Even Torch got on a team :/
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Sigh, I despise esahara. Even though I like their players their management is horrible. Whoever is in charge should resign and stay away for a while
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Great, it's good to see a completely untalented player removed from the scene for once.
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On January 13 2012 08:40 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:30 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Duravi wrote:On January 13 2012 06:50 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:44 Duravi wrote:
Sorry but being a pro means you have to perform at some point. I give him credit for going after his dream but he obviously lacks the talent to accomplish it. Just as not everyone can be a physicist, not everyone can be a pro starcraft player. How exactly can you conclude that he obviously lacks the talent? How often have you even seen him play? He has no results. At what point does that start to matter? You can't just keep saying some player has great potential but has yet to perform up to it even once for year after year. I'm not saying anything about his potential, you're the one saying he has zero talent without knowing anything about him as a player. Why would you talk about anyone's talent at anything without ever seeing them in action? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. As for at what point do results start to matter - I would say nothing less than a year in an ideal training environment. He didn't have an year, he didn't have ideal environment, and his team obviously did not do a lot to get the most out of him, which is something that all serious teams will work hard at. Which begs the question - why even sign him in the first place? On January 13 2012 08:10 Angelbelow wrote:
Lmao. And theres more stuff like this on the first few pages. Saying that somebody is passionate is hardly "hype". Considering what he did and how much he put in to play Starcraft in Korea, I'm pretty sure he qualifies for being one of the most passionate players. Passion and hard work are closely related. You can't be passionate and lazy or hard working but apathetic. If carn was truly passionate than he would be hard working as well.
I don't think this is necessarily true at all.
But more importantly, there is no real evidence pointing out that cArn is in fact not a hard-working player - there are only unsubstantiated claims made by an eSahara representative. However, as far as I am aware cArn was regarded as a dedicated player in general from way before he joined eSahara. The doubts about his commitment appear only during his time at eSahara - which IMO is not enough to brand him "lazy".
On January 13 2012 08:40 Angelbelow wrote:
The combination of hard work and passion will undoubtedly lead to success and only in the rarest case is this false.
This is an extremely exaggerated claim, both in Starcraft and life - not something I would expect from a self-proclaimed realist. You don't need to go further than a TLPD page for a Brood War team of choice, look at all the names you've never heard of, and look at how long they've been on the teams.
Consider that you don't get to stay on a BW team for very long at all if you're not sticking to an extreme practice schedule. Which in turn is never a job you would choose to do for a relatively small wage unless you were passionate for the game. I believe this proves your follow-up claim wrong as well.
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cant say jinro isnt slowly turning into a carn.. he needs results fast.
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At first I thought this was about Fnatic cArn. lol. Sad to see he has lost the passion to play
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On January 13 2012 09:04 F8 wrote:
At first I thought this was about Fnatic cArn. lol. Sad to see he has lost the passion to play
Did you even read the whole first page?
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On January 13 2012 08:59 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:40 Angelbelow wrote:On January 13 2012 08:30 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:58 Duravi wrote:On January 13 2012 06:50 Talin wrote:On January 13 2012 06:44 Duravi wrote:
Sorry but being a pro means you have to perform at some point. I give him credit for going after his dream but he obviously lacks the talent to accomplish it. Just as not everyone can be a physicist, not everyone can be a pro starcraft player. How exactly can you conclude that he obviously lacks the talent? How often have you even seen him play? He has no results. At what point does that start to matter? You can't just keep saying some player has great potential but has yet to perform up to it even once for year after year. I'm not saying anything about his potential, you're the one saying he has zero talent without knowing anything about him as a player. Why would you talk about anyone's talent at anything without ever seeing them in action? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. As for at what point do results start to matter - I would say nothing less than a year in an ideal training environment. He didn't have an year, he didn't have ideal environment, and his team obviously did not do a lot to get the most out of him, which is something that all serious teams will work hard at. Which begs the question - why even sign him in the first place? On January 13 2012 08:10 Angelbelow wrote:
Lmao. And theres more stuff like this on the first few pages. Saying that somebody is passionate is hardly "hype". Considering what he did and how much he put in to play Starcraft in Korea, I'm pretty sure he qualifies for being one of the most passionate players. Passion and hard work are closely related. You can't be passionate and lazy or hard working but apathetic. If carn was truly passionate than he would be hard working as well. I don't think this is necessarily true at all. But more importantly, there is no real evidence pointing out that cArn is in fact not a hard-working player - there are only unsubstantiated claims made by an eSahara representative. However, as far as I am aware cArn was regarded as a dedicated player in general from way before he joined eSahara. The doubts about his commitment appear only during his time at eSahara - which IMO is not enough to brand him "lazy". Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 08:40 Angelbelow wrote:
The combination of hard work and passion will undoubtedly lead to success and only in the rarest case is this false. This is an extremely exaggerated claim, both in Starcraft and life - not something I would expect from a self-proclaimed realist. You don't need to go further than a TLPD page for a Brood War team of choice, look at all the names you've never heard of, and look at how long they've been on the teams. Consider that you don't get to stay on a BW team for very long at all if you're not sticking to an extreme practice schedule. Which in turn is never a job you would choose to do for a relatively small wage unless you were passionate for the game. I believe this proves your follow-up claim wrong as well.
You can argue if you want, but the keys to success has always been hard work and passion and all values encompassing those two qualities. Its not exaggerated, its just the truth. In sc2 and in life, you'll find the most successful people the hardest working and the most passionate.
I don't follow Broodwar so switch to sc2 or else I won't be able to keep up =p.
But sc2, there's a reason why the same players are always contenders.
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On January 13 2012 07:19 Angelbelow wrote:
Nice to see the thread shift more towards logical and understanding of why esahara had to let carn go. I don't see any team executive keeping a player like carn as long as they did.
I also find it hilarious that carn tries to justify why he didn't practice for 5-6 months.
I agree. So what exactly happened at the Gom House why is Esahara saying he was banned when he was clearly not and whats the shake-down happening at the Gom House. do they just not let Foreigners stay if they aren't buckling down and practicing?
seems to me that Carn was slacking in practice that's why his team let him go...
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On January 13 2012 08:07 Shinta) wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 07:27 magnaflow wrote:On January 12 2012 20:58 Ruscour wrote:On January 12 2012 20:57 mazqo wrote:On January 12 2012 20:54 Ruscour wrote:
edit: i was quite mean.
best of luck to cArn, keep at it...as long as he's still practicing hard i do not understand this decision. Why should he keep at it? He has practiced over a year full time and still isnt that good. He seriously should stop trying to play this game professionally, he will never be top player. Not with that attitude. Would you say the same about Jinro? I would. Other then the early GSL and MLG Dallas what has Jinro done? Nothing, he's just your average foreigner who lives in Korea. Point is that a player who may not be doing well currently does not necessarily not have the potential to make a breakthrough or improve, such as Jinro has done. Thus, carn still has a chance to get good. People who are currently in diamond league and started playing sc2 as their first PC game and first RTS game also have a potential to be pro if they develop the work ethic. That doesn't mean they'll be pro soon, but let's not discredit possibilities. Sure cArn might be able to achieve something at some point, but when you hire a player as a professional with salary etc, you expect things out of him. I doubt they were all fine and dandy with cArn, until all of a sudden he didn't sign up for GSL qualies and OMG REALLY? KICKED GTFO! It was probably a last straw sort of deal. ofc I know nothing of the situation at all, so take my words with a grain of salt as I'm completely uninformed, but strategical moves are usually made strategically. Rather than using all their money on someone who never does anything, how about use it to recruit someone who has and might continue to do stuff? Besides, I don't understand this whole thing about "after getting kicked out of GOM House I couldn't practice for 5-6 months". Did he not have a computer? Does every pro player hate his guts for some reason? Unless 1 or both of those are true, he might have a harder time training, but seriously? that's the most pathetic excuse I've ever seen. There are a bunch of pros who don't live in a team house, who train daily on ladder, through game analysis, and through pro gamer friends. I used to be quite involved in management, and although there are probably things that I don't know about the situation, these things in front of me in this thread only, I discredit cArn more than eSahara. Especially after recruiting Maka, they have better opportunities to look out for.
As far as I understand when he got kicked out he basically didn't have any place to stay in Korea so he took in at some motel that didn't have internet. No internet = no practice
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EPT
