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On December 15 2011 19:21 Fjodorov wrote:
We dont have to discuss if Naniwa broke a rule or not because GOM admit in their statemant that Naniwa DID NOT break any rule. GOM's decision is based on their own, very strange, definition of what a progamers. The GOM statement in the OP is pretty much a suger coated version the "missinterpreted" statement. GOMTV are acting like an emotional and vengeful individual instead of a professional organisation which they claim to be.
why on earth can it be, that "denying" somebody something that he has no right to claim in the first place has anything to do with "rules" at all? GOMTV can invite whoever they hell they want - they could invite Nightend for his awsome voice if they wanted too
Nani has no "right" to receive an invite. He never had. Therefore nothing was "taken away" from him. The whole situation is much more similar to person A pondering about whether or not person B should get a gift. If person A decides to just not give person B a gift, then nobody would even consider calling this a "punishment" in the first place. Half the posters here act like Nani has some divine right of receiving the code S invite. This is just ludicrous.
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The world cup football analogys do not work. The teams always have fifa ranking points to fight for to get a higher seed. To be honest, none of the team sports analogys work. A team sending in their b-team may actually increase their chances of winning because b-teamers will fight hard to show the are fit for the a-team. You should rather look on how a star in a a-team behaves in a meaningless match. I watch alot of football and ive seen many friendlys and meaningless matches where the star of a team doesnt put in any effort at all sometimes.
I dont get how ppl can claim the love esports and sc2 and at the same time be furious they didnt get to see, at best, a half hearted, sloppy game between Naniwa and Nestea. Its such a hyped matchup and a grudge match and is not worthy to be played out under those circumstances.
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On December 15 2011 19:45 Fjodorov wrote:
The world cup football analogys do not work. The teams always have fifa ranking points to fight for to get a higher seed. To be honest, none of the team sports analogys work. A team sending in their b-team may actually increase their chances of winning because b-teamers will fight hard to show the are fit for the a-team. You should rather look on how a star in a a-team behaves in a meaningless match. I watch alot of football and ive seen many friendlys and meaningless matches where the star of a team doesnt put in any effort at all sometimes.
I dont get how ppl can claim the love esports and sc2 and at the same time be furious they didnt get to see, at best, a half hearted, sloppy game between Naniwa and Nestea. Its such a hyped matchup and a grudge match and is not worthy to be played out under those circumstances.
Or, they could be professional, and say I just lost 3 games, and im going to go out with a bang. I am not going to come in last, and I am going to crush the son of a bitch sitting across from me, and show my fans, and the foreigner community the match they all want to see.
Or you could just be whiney and give up, that works too.
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The statement is unacceptable. What it suddenly comes down to is semantics. That has been the problem from the start. Not having things defined properly makes it so people can fill it how they want. The way this is being handled and the sudden dissapearance of the code S spot are my main concerns. I will not be content until he get his spot back. It's very clear from all sides that every MLG after Columbus is included in the exchange rules. There has been no change to the program. You cannot say the national championship of the pro circuit, is not part of the pro circuit, that's exactly the kind of semantic crap you try to feed us. It's a fun reasoning but it's not gonna fly.
Zlasher made a post on reddit where he compiled a bunch of very suspicious things.
"When Patrick "chobopeon" O'Neill was on his show SC Report, as soon as he brought up that what GOM was doing was silly, that they were making it up as they were going, Producers of MLG_Live cut to commercial break mid statement by Patrick, and told him to cut it and not talk about it IMMEDIATELY.
Afterwards, on F!@# Slasher, when Team Liquid's Waxangel asked Slasher what his opinion was, Slasher was awkwardly and abnormally quiet, saying that his show does not represent MLG and that he has no opinion on the issue (impossible, Slasher ALWAYS has an opinion on every issue and he would publicly state it if he weren't working for MLG).
" - zlasher, http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd161/mlg_article_shows_gom_lying_about_no_code_s/
What it comes down to is this may finally spawn that independent journalism we have been craving. I will give it a couple of days for someone with that kind of skill to compile many things into some kind of article and really make a case out of it. Something we have already seen done at the start but there are so many new things currently.
Furthermore I'm extremely dissapointed that it suddenly becomes conspiracy theory-esk in the eyes of some people. I think it has just exploded so hard that you have to ponder the reality where those accusations are valid and if for some reason you do not want to acknowledge this as even a possibility you label them as crazy and stick your head in the sand. I don't have to talk about any real content here since this is very general. I don't care what side you lean towards. But never deny someone objective judgement.
I just randomly clicked on one of the pages and at the top :
"You're all so childish, just live and let go, please.
You're causing a fuss over nothing and flaming a company that stuck their neck out for SCII and has done a SHIT TONNE to get the foreign community into korean esports, seriously, all of you, grow the fuck up insted of just spouting idiocy out of your mouths before even applying any foreknowledge at all..."
This does not contain any argument for why the reasons people bring up are invalid. It just labels one side as crazy so he can put himself under not crazy. "Childish, fuss over nothing".
The status of GOM or it's credibility for the argument in this case is a argumentum ad verecundiam, an appeal to authority.
Make a random claim, which is what nothing implies. He knows exactly what is going on with everything and decides that there is nothing going on. But rather than tell us he only places himself in that position without qualifiying himself for it and then ends on the conclusion.
"You guys don't know anything / are crazy." ad hominem.
Also "stop saying things" which is the last part is that head in the sand mentality which comes from not creating your own thoughts on the matter so that you can evaluate the new information and adjust yourself based on how you judge that. It's from not actually participating and either following popular opinion, what you want to believe or simply spouting the first thought that pops up.
Don't ever do this. If you just stop and analyze what you were doing you would see this structure and realize its not logic.
This is a bit mean but its cruel to have to read this kind of clutter. I know it's actually impossible to stop but somehow I hope that picking apart a statement like that it at least gives some people a new look or option to re-evaluate, that can be used to suppress these kinds of comments in the future. Be it from themselves or others.
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good explanation, keep up the good work gom-tv!
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lol you guys should check OGN, much harsher bans occured there
what the kid did was stupid, hes spoiled.
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On December 15 2011 18:59 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 18:55 Kettchup wrote:
I have to disagree with GOM. Naniwa did not purposefully lose the match, he simply didn't care. And rightly so as it was nothing more than a showmatch. Players never reveal their best strategies in meaningless games, and thus never play their best. Naniwa was 100% right when he said he should have just 4-gated and no one would have cared. He didn't lose on purposefully? He clearly had zero intention to win and lost on purpose just to get it it over with. And no, its not a showmatch, it was still part of a serious tournament.
Let's say two Korean players agree to a televised showmatch. Don't you think the public as well as the company who organised the showmatch would be mad if one of the players throws the game away in the first minutes?
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On December 15 2011 19:45 Fjodorov wrote:
I dont get how ppl can claim the love esports and sc2 and at the same time be furious they didnt get to see, at best, a half hearted, sloppy game between Naniwa and Nestea.
Exactly. What kind of insult woul it have been to see some half hearted 4 gate, probably messing up all thze timings (not even on prurpose) and the getting crushed by nestea. Commentators would have gone all crazy at the sensational outcome etc... What a joke. No, its the tournament fault, they forced this insult of a match. How could one have hoped for this kind of charade.
Bad move, gomtv. Sadest thing, i didnt even expect you, to realize your mistake. Havent watched you since... not missing it yet
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United States1911 Posts
Also, this is not equivalent to an Idra situation at all. Idra constantly quits in meaningful situations. MLG placement match? Forfeit. Meaningless group stage with 500$ per game on the line? Forfeit. Doesn't like how his opponent is playing? GG.
Naniwa is one of the most competitive players out there. If he had anything at all to play for, he would have played for it. You can bet your ass that if he were eliminated and Nestea still had a chance to go through that he would have played his heart out. That's more than can be said for a lot group stage "games" that we've seen.
This whole thing has been a huge disservice to him.
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Great response from GSL. It was unfortunate to see Naniwa do what he did, even if it was a throw-away game. Your being watched by 10k+ Live viewers and hundreds of thousands more on VoDs. Come on.
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Why are people tirelessly defending someone that clearly had to appologize or being in the wrong. All of the statements have been released, and the party that came out on the losing end has made a formal apology. Move on with your life. If Naniwa believed so strongly in what he did, he would be fighting like all of you are. Clearly he is not, which likely means he realizes he doesnt have the ground to stand on to do so. Get over it.
Also, thanks for the post. 100% understandable response from GOM. Look forward to 2012!
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2011 19:48 legatus legionis wrote:The statement is unacceptable. What it suddenly comes down to is semantics. That has been the problem from the start. Not having things defined properly makes it so people can fill it how they want. The way this is being handled and the sudden dissapearance of the code S spot are my main concerns. I will not be content until he get his spot back. It's very clear from all sides that every MLG after Columbus is included in the exchange rules. There has been no change to the program. You cannot say the national championship of the pro circuit, is not part of the pro circuit, that's exactly the kind of semantic crap you try to feed us. It's a fun reasoning but it's not gonna fly. Zlasher made a post on reddit where he compiled a bunch of very suspicious things. "When Patrick "chobopeon" O'Neill was on his show SC Report, as soon as he brought up that what GOM was doing was silly, that they were making it up as they were going, Producers of MLG_Live cut to commercial break mid statement by Patrick, and told him to cut it and not talk about it IMMEDIATELY. Afterwards, on F!@# Slasher, when Team Liquid's Waxangel asked Slasher what his opinion was, Slasher was awkwardly and abnormally quiet, saying that his show does not represent MLG and that he has no opinion on the issue (impossible, Slasher ALWAYS has an opinion on every issue and he would publicly state it if he weren't working for MLG). " - zlasher, http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/nd161/mlg_article_shows_gom_lying_about_no_code_s/What it comes down to is this may finally spawn that independent journalism we have been craving. I will give it a couple of days for someone with that kind of skill to compile many things into some kind of article and really make a case out of it. Something we have already seen done at the start but there are so many new things currently. Furthermore I'm extremely dissapointed that it suddenly becomes conspiracy theory-esk in the eyes of some people. I think it has just exploded so hard that you have to ponder the reality where those accusations are valid and if for some reason you do not want to acknowledge this as even a possibility you label them as crazy and stick your head in the sand. I don't have to talk about any real content here since this is very general. I don't care what side you lean towards. But never deny someone objective judgement. I just randomly clicked on one of the pages and at the top : Show nested quote +"You're all so childish, just live and let go, please.
You're causing a fuss over nothing and flaming a company that stuck their neck out for SCII and has done a SHIT TONNE to get the foreign community into korean esports, seriously, all of you, grow the fuck up insted of just spouting idiocy out of your mouths before even applying any foreknowledge at all..." This does not contain any argument for why the reasons people bring up are invalid. It just labels one side as crazy so he can put himself under not crazy. "Childish, fuss over nothing". The status of GOM or it's credibility for the argument in this case is a argumentum ad verecundiam, an appeal to authority. Make a random claim, which is what nothing implies. He knows exactly what is going on with everything and decides that there is nothing going on. But rather than tell us he only places himself in that position without qualifiying himself for it and then ends on the conclusion. "You guys don't know anything / are crazy." ad hominem. Also "stop saying things" which is the last part is that head in the sand mentality which comes from not creating your own thoughts on the matter so that you can evaluate the new information and adjust yourself based on how you judge that. It's from not actually participating and either following popular opinion, what you want to believe or simply spouting the first thought that pops up. Don't ever do this. If you just stop and analyze what you were doing you would see this structure and realize its not logic. This is a bit mean but its cruel to have to read this kind of clutter. I know it's actually impossible to stop but somehow I hope that picking apart a statement like that it at least gives some people a new look or option to re-evaluate, that can be used to suppress these kinds of comments in the future. Be it from themselves or others.
Actually the only person that seems to be covering both their ears is you. Every one of your supposed arguments and complaints have been more than sufficiently addressed in previous posts in this thread. All that's left is for MLG to come forth with clarifications about the communication with GOM
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On December 15 2011 19:34 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:13 kcbgoku wrote:On December 15 2011 18:50 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 18:38 kcbgoku wrote:If by "match is a match" you are really saying football match = sc2 match = volleyball match then this is just hopeless case or troll so i'll just pass. you said format creates a meaningless situation where both teams face each other with 0-3 record. Yes I did and yes it does. what are you talking about? whether it is a soccer match, football match or rock paper scissor match, this format has possibility of creating the situation. Are you saying the ONLY reason there is no meaningless game in world cup is because they have to play it out? Have you even watched any world cup where players play for honor and professionalism? Besides, who decide it is a meaningless game? a group of fans? players? can you imagine a team in world cup not even trying because they are arelady 0-3 and facing another 0-3? No they at least owe it to audience, fans and spirit of the competition to play out well. what you say makes no sense when you say this format is flawed. I didn't say this format is flawed everywhere in our universe. It won't work in tournament like this. Noone decides it's meaningless. It just is. Even GOM said that. If you care or not that just depends on you or your team. And you try as hard as you care. You wan't to tell that every friendly match or match for "honor" is played out with 100% engagement? Please. Teams play with reserve players, pass balls with 0 aggression. And maybe that's not the only reason, but it's a big reason why they play pointless matches - because they have to. Also matches are scheduled for millions of wievers and with break between matches so you don't play exhausted or with bad mindset because you just lost 3 other matches 20 minutes ago. nice so let's ignore sc2 viewers who wanted to see that scheduled match because they are not important. btw there was a break in between the game. if you followed what people were saying, they werent even asking for 80% game. if he 4 gated or cannon rushed, I would have been fine. Also there is no meaningless game on televised game where sponsors pay big money. To just throw away the game in Naniwa's fashion is hugely unprofessional. Did you even read Naniwa's statement? He only thought of himself and was selfish. man I wont waste my time anymore on guys like you who think professional can just quit whenever they like if they find it stupid. I have better things to do.
I don't mean to single you out but I do have a couple of questions for you and people that reason in this way.
You say cannon rush or 4gate is OK, you would have accepted that but who decides where to draw the line?
Is one base carrier OK?
Proxy 9 gates?
Double nexus on 15?
Inbase nexus -> 50 probe rush?
15 nexus, 4 gas then nothing but pure sentry?
Mothership+DT of one base?
Tripple robo mass observer?
Double gas on 11 into super fast DT?
How silly of a strategy is one allowed to use for it to be "fine" and who decides what is acceptable and what is not? If 1 gate into one base carrier is OK for you, then someone that does a 7 probe rush has a bigger chance of winning. I don't think it is right to throw a game like that but I do understand it.
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On December 15 2011 19:34 Govou wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:13 kcbgoku wrote:On December 15 2011 18:50 Govou wrote:On December 15 2011 18:38 kcbgoku wrote:If by "match is a match" you are really saying football match = sc2 match = volleyball match then this is just hopeless case or troll so i'll just pass. you said format creates a meaningless situation where both teams face each other with 0-3 record. Yes I did and yes it does. what are you talking about? whether it is a soccer match, football match or rock paper scissor match, this format has possibility of creating the situation. Are you saying the ONLY reason there is no meaningless game in world cup is because they have to play it out? Have you even watched any world cup where players play for honor and professionalism? Besides, who decide it is a meaningless game? a group of fans? players? can you imagine a team in world cup not even trying because they are arelady 0-3 and facing another 0-3? No they at least owe it to audience, fans and spirit of the competition to play out well. what you say makes no sense when you say this format is flawed. I didn't say this format is flawed everywhere in our universe. It won't work in tournament like this. Noone decides it's meaningless. It just is. Even GOM said that. If you care or not that just depends on you or your team. And you try as hard as you care. You wan't to tell that every friendly match or match for "honor" is played out with 100% engagement? Please. Teams play with reserve players, pass balls with 0 aggression. And maybe that's not the only reason, but it's a big reason why they play pointless matches - because they have to. Also matches are scheduled for millions of wievers and with break between matches so you don't play exhausted or with bad mindset because you just lost 3 other matches 20 minutes ago. nice so let's ignore sc2 viewers who wanted to see that scheduled match because they are not important. btw there was a break in between the game. if you followed what people were saying, they werent even asking for 80% game. if he 4 gated or cannon rushed, I would have been fine. Also there is no meaningless game on televised game where sponsors pay big money. To just throw away the game in Naniwa's fashion is hugely unprofessional. Did you even read Naniwa's statement? He only thought of himself and was selfish. man I wont waste my time anymore on guys like you who think professional can just quit whenever they like if they find it stupid. I have better things to do.
Yes 30 minutes break is all you need. Man seriously start thinking.
To those people: If you want to see 4 gate or cannon rush - combatEX is streaming, go there, it's free, don't pay for GSL and don't whine that someone probe rushed because game didn't matter.
I've never said he acted professional or even correctly.
Never said that either so go and do your better things to do - like learn comprehension reading.
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its still mindboggling to me why anyone would be taking naniwa side. You either respect the tournament, or face consequences when you don't
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On December 15 2011 19:58 iky43210 wrote:
its still mindboggling to me why anyone would be taking naniwa side. You either respect the tournament, or face consequences when you don't
It's still mindblowing that anyone thinks this is justified by anything else than: We didn't like your decision in a silly situation we've created so "bye" for this season, come back later.
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Wow bad naniwa 
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On December 15 2011 19:58 iky43210 wrote:
its still mindboggling to me why anyone would be taking naniwa side. You either respect the tournament, or face consequences when you don't
He's a foreigner that's why people are up in arms, people wouldn't care so much if he was Korean.
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On December 15 2011 20:01 kcbgoku wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 19:58 iky43210 wrote:
its still mindboggling to me why anyone would be taking naniwa side. You either respect the tournament, or face consequences when you don't It's still mindblowing that anyone thinks this is justified by anything else than: We didn't like your decision in a silly situation we've created so "bye" for this season, come back later.
If you can please tell me why Naniwa has a divine right to that code S spot, and why GOM isnt allowed to choose who they want to give it to, and rather, must listen to who you tell them to give it to, I would appreciate it.
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Ok. When people say, good statement, great response, well said and so on. Would you mind actually telling us how you come to that conclusion? Which parts it are that make it so great and why those parts are valid? What it is that you agree with and why.
"Your being watched by 10k+ Live viewers and hundreds of thousands more on VoDs. Come on."
There is no argument here. You cannot just type this because it has no purpose, it just states an observation. Come on only implies that you won't type the reasoning because it's so natural and obvious, if you can't see it, you must be stupid. Which is like a predetermined ad hominem. Rather than break someone apart as a reaction you set yourself up as the one that can never be broken.
You were playing the game. The map was antiga shipyard. It was played in Korea. Thousands of people were watching.
Why does that in particular hold any value?
It doesn't matter if I don't care but I just don't care. I didn't even watch the game lol. He lost after he lost vs MMA and I stopped watching. I don't want to be entertained, I don't need a show. I just want to see the competition and the game. The beauty of what is inside that game is what allows me to entertain myself. Everything else is just an addition and expansion. Not the primary part. For me at least. So I don't feel entitled to any of that. Why do you guys think you do?
Make arguments and explain your reasoning. If you don't and just post empty comments, I think you shouldn't even be posting because it's worthless.
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EPT
