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I just think GOM is being extremely...vague with what is not allowed, and let me explain why this is a problem.
Naniwa has shown that pulling your workers and attacking your enemy is definitely not allowed given the response, which I haven't decided for right or wrong either way yet, but the issue lies in what he was punished for. I have seen players also worker rush and win, most notably Idra doing a double extractor 12 drone pull. Although having an extremely low rate chance to win, it is a viable maneuver. 6 pooling terran has something around a 3% win rate, yet is still commonly executed because it has a set build order and has no problem as it's been done multiple times with no response from the GOM community, so where's the line?
Would it have been okay if Naniwa microed his probes around a little and tried to kill off a workers one by one fighting in the open? What if instead of worker rushing he proxy 2 gate rushed which I assume most people would be okay with? What if instead of proxy 2 gating in a hidden area he did it in such a close location to his opponent that it had almost a 99% chance to be seen and thus end the game faster? What range can he build this gateways in so that he's considered showing a game?
It seems like the issue is either one of how low of a win-rate build you're allowed to execute, or how little you're allowed to try, which is an extremely delicate thing to blanket with something like this. There have been hundreds of games where players had obviously not thrown 100% of their heart or game ability in to varying degrees.
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On December 15 2011 08:01 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:58 Eppa! wrote:On December 15 2011 07:54 farnham wrote:On December 15 2011 07:49 Eppa! wrote:On December 15 2011 07:39 GeriMage23 wrote:On December 15 2011 07:34 Eppa! wrote:On December 15 2011 07:28 MiXyass wrote:
Anybody that says KESPA would've handled this situation better has no idea what they are talking about
KESPA was not only strict about what happened on their own tournaments but they were strict on what happened outside of tournaments so that the players can display the best games possible on television
If this happened under KESPA naniwa would be 100% banned forever in any korean tournament
KESPA would not punish someone for not breaking a rule. KESPA was hard on players but not close to as subjective as GomTV. Its like Singapore vs Pakistan. Yeah KeSPA never banned players for throwing games away.... Ohhh wait saviOr..... HMMMMM.... SaviOr was banned for match fixing. He also broke rules Naniwa did not. how did naniwa not break rules ? Because GOMTV said so? because the korean civil code says so
I don't even...
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On December 15 2011 08:05 Packawana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it. And there is no issue with Naniwa doing it? Sure, one person is punished, but this sets the precedent. No one will think about doing such a thing again, or else they will fall under the same punishments.
The situation in which it happened with Naniwa is very specific and not nearly as serious as throwing a match. Let alone the seriousness of throwing a match for betting/helping a teammate advance. Or the obscurities of ways to throw a match less obviously like a proxy 2 gate/4 gate.
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On December 15 2011 08:04 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm lol this is a good point.
The top 2 at Providence were to be sent to the Blizzard Cup, that was already stated.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704
Jesus, sometimes I wonder if people just read things on here and believe them immediately or if they actually look into it and decide to support their argument.
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On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it.
Or alternatively we're aware that the last time a player definitively threw a game (SlayersCoCa) they picked him up by the arms and legs, walked calmly to the nearest roadside, and waited for a passing semitruck before tossing him under it.
Has it not occurred to you that - having seen the various ethical issues involved - other people might come to different conclusions?
I notice Doa agrees with what Gom did (and defends Nani as well). Is he a fanboy?
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On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm
There were two spots in the Blizzard Cup available at MLG Providence for 1st/2nd place. Guess who got those two spots?
Sometimes I think people don't know how to read...
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On December 15 2011 07:58 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:55 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 15 2011 07:51 Chill wrote:On December 15 2011 07:49 mango_destroyer wrote:On December 15 2011 07:46 Chill wrote:On December 15 2011 07:44 mango_destroyer wrote:On December 15 2011 07:42 ACrow wrote:I could agree with Gom's punishment of revoking Naniwa's Code S spot for immature behavior... ...if it wasn't for the MLG exchange program. The way the wording of the program is - as far as it's public - GSL broke their obligations to MLG. This is very unprofessional by Gom and should be cleared up. If I were in Sundance's shoes, I'd be pissed; part of the appeal of his circuit is that it acts (or at least acted for 2011 events, which includes Providence) as qualifier for the most respected league. This damages MLG's reputation quite a bit if this is not cleared up! This whole thing makes me sad, I love the GSL, but something really seems fishy here  Providence wasn`t part of their obligations. Based on...? Do you have evidence of the contrary? There is 2 sides of this partnership, and GOM is on one side unless you believe they are lying. "2. Doesn't that mean that the GSL is depriving NaNiWa of a Code S seed that he rightfully earned? It seems like a lot of people have been under the impression that NaNiWa has received a Code S seed for taking 2nd place at MLG Providence. The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence." I have one public announcement and then I have one person who is saying after the fact that he changed the format but didn't announce it. If you truly believe that GomTV changed rules, take the original announcement by GomTV, the new announcement which says: "The truth however is that NaNiWa has received the right to compete in the Blizzard Cup for his 2nd place achievement at MLG Providence." (A fact known before today.), make a new thread with analysis and make a claim. With all due respect, so far you're giving one-liners that feed trolls. This is what GOM's own rules say. Show nested quote +
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A.
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
Surely now you understand how every single person in the SC2 community is under the assumption that Naniwa would have a guaranteed Code S spot.
Not every single...
I still cannot get over the fact that Blizzard cup was announced with the award system from Providence. Everyone knew this before, yet we assumed it was just a bonus? We expect tournament rules to be published before the tournament, and GSL January had not been explained yet because it's still quite far into the future. If the rules had been explained already, we would not have this problem.
As GomTV said, it's a misunderstanding. Allowing people to call him a liar is way too much. If MLG came out with a contract and said GomTV has breached it, I'd agree. But this seems to be people reading into a single wording of an announcement a very strict interpretation while there is a perfectly reasonable interpretation (Blizzard Cup) available.
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On December 15 2011 08:04 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm lol this is a good point.
What? I don't know if you missed it, but Leenock was in fact present at Blizzard Cup. There were two Blizzard Cup spots up for grabs at Providence.
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On December 15 2011 08:06 CanucksJC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it. You still have NOT provided ANY examples. What are the ethical issues here? Who else threw away games? Did someone 'gg' out in the first minute without trying? Did I magically miss some games? Don't be a drama queen.
There are many examples, like Hero vs DRG in the Blizzard Cup. It does not matter whether you throw the game immediately or it takes longer - this is NOT a metric which should be used to determine whether a game is thrown or not.
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On December 15 2011 08:04 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm lol this is a good point.
There were 2 BlizzCup bids up for grabs at Providence, for 1st and 2nd place. That has long since been made clear. For as arbitrarily and unprofessionally as GOM is acting, this isn't a flaw in their logic or press capacities.
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On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it.
You have not addressed the following:
- Why Korean players never get punished for offensive or disrespectful behaviour
- Why Korean players never get punished for throwing games
- Why it is OK to insult Naniwai and not apologise for your disrespectful and incorrect statements about him
GOMTV is blatantly racist and clearly has double standards
i think you need to get your brain checked.
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I think the keyword is "2011". The next GSL would be in 2012 so Providence's result might not apply there. Also because there's no more code S for 2011, they decide to award Naniwa with Blizz cup invite instead.
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On December 15 2011 08:06 ScareCrow` wrote:
I just think GOM is being extremely...vague with what is not allowed, and let me explain why this is a problem.
Naniwa has shown that pulling your workers and attacking your enemy is definitely not allowed given the response, which I haven't decided for right or wrong either way yet, but the issue lies in what he was punished for. I have seen players also worker rush and win, most notably Idra doing a double extractor 12 drone pull. Although having an extremely low rate chance to win, it is a viable maneuver. 6 pooling terran has something around a 3% win rate, yet is still commonly executed because it has a set build order and has no problem as it's been done multiple times with no response from the GOM community, so where's the line?
Would it have been okay if Naniwa microed his probes around a little and tried to kill off a workers one by one fighting in the open? What if instead of worker rushing he proxy 2 gate rushed which I assume most people would be okay with? What if instead of proxy 2 gating in a hidden area he did it in such a close location to his opponent that it had almost a 99% chance to be seen and thus end the game faster? What range can he build this gateways in so that he's considered showing a game?
It seems like the issue is either one of how low of a win-rate build you're allowed to execute, or how little you're allowed to try, which is an extremely delicate thing to blanket with something like this. There have been hundreds of games where players had obviously not thrown 100% of their heart or game ability in to varying degrees.
Selecting all your initial workers, a moving them into your opponents base, and staring at the screen until they all die will never win the game against a progamer.
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On December 15 2011 08:03 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:58 Agathon wrote:
It's a non sens.
Ok, GOMTV dislike Naniwa's behaviour and decide to punish him. No problem for that.
My problem is about replacement. The worth player in manner purpose : Idra.
The man who insult his opponents when he is streaming, the man who ragequit vs Kas during DH (maybe the most lovely player in Europe, like most of Ukrainian players), i've so many exemples.
Replace Naniwa by Thorzain, TLO, Jinro, Stephano (he would refuse, but whatever), Sase, ToD, Sheth, Incontrol, Machine, Kiwikaki,etc...fuck there is so many respecfull players in the world. Idra is one of the best players, but if respect, honnor, duty is so much a big deal, Idra is the worth choice.
This choice is the exact opposit ofo Naniwa's punishment. It desn't make any sens.
Irda has respect issues towards "certain" other players, but not towards the Tournament and the fans.
Semi-finals of a TL Open a while back. Idra vs Nerchio, Nerchio was up 1-0 and Idra forfeited the rest of the series. The games were being casted live (by TB, if I recall corectly). That's clearly disrespectful towards both tournament and fans.
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On December 15 2011 08:05 labbe wrote:
This statement just makes GOMTV look even more bad than they did before if you ask me. Here they openly admit to Naniwa not breaking any rules, but then they go on and punish him any way because they basically did not agree with his actions.
And then they go on and rant about technicalities and how he "Technically was not invited", and that they "Just chose remove him from consideration for the seed". Disgraceful.
GOMTV messed up big time, they took this little incident and blew it up to insane proportions, and they can't even man up and apologize.
Naniwa was wrong, he apologized. GOMTV does not seem to be able to.
Nani did not get his code S spot from MLG exchange program.. He never won MLG providence. Read the dam Exchange program. Only the First place gets in code S. Top 3 foreigners gets placed in Code A. Naniwa was placed in code S due to the "new system" Gom set up: the 2 seed invite system. however due to his poor conduct, it was taken away. Naniwa never officially earned Code S.
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On December 15 2011 08:01 Skillig wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:58 Agathon wrote:
It's a non sens.
Ok, GOMTV dislike Naniwa's behaviour and decide to punish him. No problem for that.
My problem is about replacement. The worth player in manner purpose : Idra.
The man who insult his opponents when he is streaming, the man who ragequit vs Kas during DH (maybe the most lovely player in Europe, like most of Ukrainian players), i've so many exemples.
Replace Naniwa by Thorzain, TLO, Jinro, Stephano (he would refuse, but whatever), Sase, ToD, Sheth, Incontrol, Machine, Kiwikaki,etc...fuck there is so many respecfull players in the world. Idra is one of the best players, but if respect, honnor, duty is so much a big deal, Idra is the worth choice.
This choice is the exact opposit ofo Naniwa's punishment. It desn't make any sens.
totally agree with you , idra is like the worst choice , but what can you do , due to his large fanbase , idra will brings so many more viewers than the others guys would
I'm complety sure you're right, Idra is famous and bring many viewers, this story about respect or honnor is BS. Sorry GOMTV crew, you're making a very good work for esport, but do not think that viewers are stupid. Idra is much more "bankable" than Naniwa, and i guess it is your main purpose.
I might be wrong, but as a viewer, it's the way a feel this stupid story.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
and something that is strange is also this:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293877
Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S."
What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners?
I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
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On December 15 2011 07:30 MiXyass wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:28 NeO)DarK wrote:On December 15 2011 07:05 farnham wrote:On December 15 2011 07:04 Waxangel wrote:Hihi: Your Official AnnouncementPro Circuit Players Competing in the GSL
At MLG Columbus, the Top 3 non-Korean finishers will each be placed into GSL Code A.
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status. What's up? Even if that was true Gom is entitled to terminate the current contractual relationship with naniwa Contracts are not as simple as this - don't attempt to make a statement without backing it up with legalese. I'll give you a little example: Contracts in Canada can be brought to an end in the following four ways (to simplify it): 1) Performance; 2) Mutual Agreement; 3) Frustration; 4) Breach. Performance relates to completion of the obligations under the contract. Mutual agreement is evident in itself, and frustration is when the parties cannot carry out the terms of the agreements because events beyond their control prevent them from doing so. The last, breach, is more relevant in this situation - it's a failure by a party to perform an obligation agreed to in the contract. Progaming would likely fall under labor laws and that's not my area of expertise. So, the question is if an agreement was made between Naniwa and GOM and if it was an express contract or implied contract. I'm unaware if if there were verbal or written terms and conditions, so I'd assume this is an implied contract where parties indicate consensus through conduct. I'm not saying any of this is enforceable because contracts aren't my expertise and South Korea certainly has a different legal system than Canada. I'd honestly be more concerned with Chae Jung Won's (he is not my superior, he will not be referred to as "mr") comments - it seems like Naniwa was given code S and he admitted that in his statement. Anyways, I think this is an overreaction on GOM's part. This community has blown things out of proportion and instead of discussing the event intelligently, the trolls prevailed (as they always have). In my view: why waste a special strategy on a meaningless game? I would have walked out too for wasting my time - GOM is just mad about the views the match was going to attract. Here come the flames... okay dude keep in mind that if naniwa was in fact in a contract with gomtv to participate as code s this would be IN THE FUTURE because GOMtv did not receive the service that they expected from Naniwa, GOMtv has the right to VOID any FUTURE contracts with the party Also, farnham has already posted some stuff on korean law and he actually knows what he's talking about
Obviously the contract is regarding a tournament in the future. How would you know the expectations laid out in that contract? I highly doubt there would be a code of conduct clause if he SIGNED an agreement - further doubt is cast on the fact that this was likely an implied contract. If you're about to reference GOM's silly professional rule, don't even bother - it's an ambiguous rule and the context can be twisted any way you want. LEGALLY voiding a contract is not this simple, but apparently you think it is - how about you and I sign a serious contract and you try to void it?
Also, care to link me to farnham's legal posts? I'd love to see more of your uneducated legal posts though, keep it up.
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On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ?
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On December 15 2011 08:07 Starcraftmazter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:06 CanucksJC wrote:On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it. You still have NOT provided ANY examples. What are the ethical issues here? Who else threw away games? Did someone 'gg' out in the first minute without trying? Did I magically miss some games? Don't be a drama queen. There are many examples, like Hero vs DRG in the Blizzard Cup. It does not matter whether you throw the game immediately or it takes longer - this is NOT a metric which should be used to determine whether a game is thrown or not.
Lol so now Hero is throwing away games? Jesus people....
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EPT
