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On December 15 2011 08:06 Packawana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:04 L3gendary wrote:On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm lol this is a good point. The top 2 at Providence were to be sent to the Blizzard Cup, that was already stated. http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704Jesus, sometimes I wonder if people just read things on here and believe them immediately or if they actually look into it and decide to support their argument.
All 2011 MLGs after Columbus award a code S spot. In addition to that, Providence top 2 is invited to the Blizzard Cup.
That doesn't change the standing agreement. Else it should say "instead of code S status, Providence will only award invitations to the Blizzard Cup".
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On December 15 2011 08:12 DarkSider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:03 oBlade wrote:On December 15 2011 07:57 DarkSider wrote:
Some said manner mules are offensive. Ok go ahead and write a perfect valid rule that should outlaw manner mules when you think you've won the game.
Think how to differentiate dropping mules with the intent of showing to your opponent it's over or dropping them with the intent of repairing your army. Dropping them as accident instead scanning - Is 1 mule an accident ok ? 2 mules ok ? 3 ? Where do you draw the line when it's clear he was intentionally spamming mules and wasn't a finger shake from the emotion ?
Maybe if you drop them close to your army can be seen as a genuine attempt to repair your army ? Ok so let's make it at most 2 inches further from your farther unit on a 19 inch monitor it's allowed to drop mules.
Oh hey but when i intended to drop the mule that hellion was still alive and my mule was in the rules. I was slow, the animation was slow and when my mule dropped the hellion was dead leaving my mule in offside !! But why would you ever have a rule stipulating something about what happens inside the game mechanics to begin with? Because some said dropping mules it's offensive and should be a rule against it. Not everything that happens inside the game is allowed you know .. you need again common sense to know that you can't write DICK with pylons when playing in GSL. There is no explicit rule about it but i'm sure the player who'd do that would get a big kick in the ass.
There are explicit rules about offending audience and other players. DICK with pylons seems to easily fit into this. Probe rushing not so much.
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On December 15 2011 08:12 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ? How do you explain the SlayersCoca incident, where a Korean - contrary to your claims - was banned from Code S AND brutally punished by his team for throwing a game?
It was so obvious it was impossible to ignore it. I am talking about all those games in all those seasons (not to mention the GSTL) where nothing was formally said in the game to indicate it was thrown, but objectively it can be said that they were in fact thrown.
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On December 15 2011 08:13 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:06 CanucksJC wrote:On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it. You still have NOT provided ANY examples. What are the ethical issues here? Who else threw away games? Did someone 'gg' out in the first minute without trying? Did I magically miss some games? Don't be a drama queen. Depends on what you call throwing a game. How about not showing up for a game at all? Has happened in the mlg a ton. Earlier in the year, playing for champ points (6-7-8th place for example). Players couldnt be arsed and didnt show up. And those werent even completely pointless matches. So everyone ever doing that, should get their head on the block?
Well GOM doesn't run MLG so I'm not sure what you expect them to do about that...
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GOM is an Asian organization. Naniwa's behavior is considered extremely disrespectful in Asian culture, particularly because NesTea ranks above Naniwa in terms of seniority. That is all. Sure, Naniwa would not have been kicked if this happened in a Western tournament, like NASL. GOM is not imposing their principles on other organisations. So why should the community impose their principles on GOM? No officially promulgated rules were broken, but respect - particularly for your elders is an unspoken one. Don't understand all this cultural imperialism. Just because something doesn't fit in your narrow Western mentality box does not make it a bad or wrong decision.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 15 2011 08:12 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ? How do you explain the SlayersCoca incident, where a Korean - contrary to your claims - was banned from Code S AND brutally punished by his team for throwing a game?
Money was involved, it was a tournament, and we have no idea what gom would have done, slayers did it
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On December 15 2011 08:12 thopol wrote:
I don't like how the way that Gom viewed their responsibility for the incident was a footnote with no apology to fans. I'm sure Naniwa didn't want to take responsibility, but he did it. They should have the courtesy to apologise for their format, even if it isn't sincere.
Anyway, it's nice that they clarified some things, specifically how they viewed the actions to be unprofessional. I was a little fuzzy on that, but their idea was pretty clear.
There is nothing flaw about the format, most sports have meaningless games. You can put 70%, even 50% effort into it, but 0% effort is intolerable.
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ?
because the things you say to be considered seriously is an insult itself to other readers.
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On December 15 2011 08:06 Packawana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:04 L3gendary wrote:On December 15 2011 08:02 Fjodorov wrote:
If the there was in fact no code s prize for MLG providence, but instead a spot in Blizzard cup, then Leenock was the one who earned won that prize. Yet GOMTV say Naniwa won earned the spot in blizzard cup from MLG providence... hmm lol this is a good point. The top 2 at Providence were to be sent to the Blizzard Cup, that was already stated. http://www.gomtv.net/2011blizzardcup/news/66704Jesus, sometimes I wonder if people just read things on here and believe them immediately or if they actually look into it and decide to support their argument.
That does in no way state that the Blizzard cup seed was given in place of Code S.
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The punishment is too harsh.
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On December 15 2011 08:09 illsick wrote:and something that is strange is also this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=293877Nani: "Even if I win Blizzard Cup nothing will change. I think prestige is important but in my opinion Code S is the most prestigious tournament in the world. So I want to continue challenge myself in Code S." What was the interviewer thinking after a response like that? No one in the GOM studio cared to correct him by saying that he wasn't in code S yet but that he was in the running for a spot with other foreigners? I think that GOM was lying, they had opportunities to claim otherwise about the code S spot in question when all different types of media announced that nani had earned it, including one of the two parties involved with the exchange program (MLG). I think it was easier for them to say people had the wrong impression that naniwa got a code S spot (I mean how could someone have the right impression when all sorts of media stated otherwise?) than to say he was kicked out of code S.
This, GOMTV can't even admit that this is a punishment. First they announce that they are removing Naniwas Code S invite.
*Massive community outcry*
"Oh and by the way, forgot to tell you. He was not really invited in the first place, so technically this is not even a punishment"
-.-
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On December 15 2011 08:14 Starcraftmazter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:12 iamthedave wrote:On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ? How do you explain the SlayersCoca incident, where a Korean - contrary to your claims - was banned from Code S AND brutally punished by his team for throwing a game? It was so obvious it was impossible to ignore it. I am talking about all those games in all those seasons (not to mention the GSTL) where nothing was formally said in the game to indicate it was thrown, but objectively it can be said that they were in fact thrown.
You can think it's objective. But I have NEVER seen a game in GSL/GSTL that I thought was thrown. I've thought that some team players weren't practicing their heart out for the GSTL, but never that they lost without trying at all.
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On December 15 2011 07:57 DarkSider wrote:
Because some said dropping mules it's offensive and should be a rule against it. Not everything that happens inside the game is allowed you know .. you need again common sense to know that you can't write DICK with pylons when playing in GSL. There is no explicit rule about it but i'm sure the player who'd do that would get a big kick in the ass.
Writing Dick in a GSL match wtih pylons would be quite an achievement however
Maybe this is a good thing to happen though, Hopefully the rules will be clarified, additional rules that maybe speak for themselves but can avoid nasty situations like these.
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ?
there's no point in arguing with someone who deliberately ignore facts and manipulates the truth even when it's so obvious in front of them.
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On December 15 2011 08:13 manloveman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:06 CanucksJC wrote:On December 15 2011 08:03 Starcraftmazter wrote:
To me, it seems that GomTV is mostly only supported by fanboys who are somewhat immature at least, who are unable to see the various ethical issues surrounding this incident and double standards displayed by GomTV.
Throwing games is potentially a big problem, and it is never looked at or discussed. Then arbitrarily one person gets punished for doing it in a specific way, while the rest are not even touched. There is a lot of figure out here from the community and the tournament organisers, there is a lot which must be done to make things right in regards to this single issue.
But none of this is being done, GomTV are quite happy making a scapegoat out of Naniwa for what is a much broader issue in Starcraft 2 eSports.
This is a very big problem and it raises all sorts of ethical questions. The vast majority of people supporting GomTV are either not looking at this (which in my view is the main issue here), or simply cannot fathom it. You still have NOT provided ANY examples. What are the ethical issues here? Who else threw away games? Did someone 'gg' out in the first minute without trying? Did I magically miss some games? Don't be a drama queen. Depends on what you call throwing a game. How about not showing up for a game at all? Has happened in the mlg a ton. Earlier in the year, playing for champ points (6-7-8th place for example). Players couldnt be arsed and didnt show up. And those werent even completely pointless matches. So everyone ever doing that, should get their head on the block?
I hate to point this out to you, but GomTV are not the international law enforcers of Starcraft.
When has this happened in the GSL?
It's like when people bring up Idra's BM. He's incredibly BM in foreign tournaments. Did you ever see him cuss out Korean players when he was in the GSL? No. He was on good behaviour in all of his GSL matches. Gom care about how people behave on their stage, in their tournament, because that's the one they run.
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On December 15 2011 08:12 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Starcraftmazter wrote:On December 15 2011 08:07 JoeSchmoe wrote:
i think you need to get your brain checked. This is exactly what I am talking about. Most people who are supporting GOM in this are little kids who resort to insults, and never stage any counter-arguments. How can you be expected to be taken seriously ? How do you explain the SlayersCoca incident, where a Korean - contrary to your claims - was banned from Code S AND brutally punished by his team for throwing a game?
he never was banned from Code S/gom, but instead forfeited it by himself.
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On December 15 2011 08:10 SCST wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:01 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 15 2011 07:54 SCST wrote:On December 15 2011 07:50 Tyrant0 wrote:On December 15 2011 07:41 SCST wrote:
Again I love how people in this thread are constantly whining about how GOM has "no right" to take away a Code S spot for Naniwa. WRONG. GOM owns the tournament, they pay for it and decide every aspect of their own tournament. They can change the rules, break them or whatever they want.
You on the other hand (person complaining about this), most likely sit on your butt and watch the games from a couch eating Cheetos. If you want to let Naniwa play in a tournament and act like a pre-teen, then create your own tournament. What you want is irrelevant. What Naniwa wants is irrelevant. GOM can do whatever they want, and if they don't want a disrespectful punk on their show then all the whining and Cheeto-throwing in the world isn't going to change that. Individuals thinking "waaa it's unfair" seriously need to grow up. There aren't enough consequences for jerks in this world, it should be applauded when someone or something finally grows the balls to enforce some repercussions. And that's the issue. You're giving ALL the power to GOM and taking any shred thats left from the players/fans. In your demented world, GOM calls every shot. Us fans are going to sit in our fucking chairs and pay for their service, or fuck off because we're irrelevant. If GOM wanted to ban a player because they didn't wear a GOM patch every where they went, even when outside of Korea, well then FUCK YOU gom owns the GSL they do what they want. (This is all examples of a corrupt organization and don't represent GOM) It's exactly this stupid line of thinking where someone is willing to take it up the ass because they were told to. You could bet your fucking ass if the players/fans were to take it upon themselves and completely stop watching/participating in GSL they'd change their stance right quick. And this is not even to bash GOM any more than I have, or to incite everyone to protest the GSL. It's bashing this hard right line of thinking where the power of leagues are absolute and the fans/players are expected to bow their heads, and never fight for their own benefit. GSL definitely doesn't hold all the cards, and can definitely be held responsible; not because it happened to Naniwa but because it could happen to anyone. Whoa, it's not ME who's "giving all the power to GOM" - what kid of logic is this? GOM has all the power because they OWN the tournamnet. What is it about "this is a business that pays for their own tournament" that people just don't get? You think fans should control a business? Or players? I'm laughing my ass off thinking about that. I can only imagine a tournament were the "largest ego" decides the rules of the tournament. In that case, Irda would be allowed to forfeit all Protoss matches on grounds of "imbalance", and Naniwa would be allowed to go around slapping the faces of event staff because he "felt like it". Time to come back to reality and the adult world. You're damn fucking right they do. If no one watched/played for GOMtv, they'd change their ways or go out of business. Welcome to the free market, theres too much content to watch and not enough time. People have to pick and choose, and they can certainly choose not to watch the GSL. While this is much too controversial and not quite as bad of a transgression as possible from gom to warrant, you don't think people would do it? Imagine if kespa ran the KSL and HuK accidentally typo'ed GG, and was DQ'ed. The entire foreign community would be in an uproar, and if kespa told them to deal with it, they'd lose every foreign fan/player immediately. Time to come back to reality and not pretend conservative land where we bend over backwards to corporate power. And im not even fucking suggesting any of this about GOM. The sad part is I have to make this case for people like you who want it to be that way so badly. Equating what happened with Naniwa to "corporate power" is an absolute joke. I of all people am against corporate power and greed (see IPL charity event thread for proof). The key point in your argument is: you're pissed and want to influence the way GOM does business by threatening to cancel viewership. This is a valid way to alter business in the free market. However, what you're not considering is that GOMtv knows that the viewership that will protest punishing a jerk-child like Naniwa is extremely small and mostly just foaming-at-the-mouth Naniwa fans. They've deemed that it's worth it to maintain the integrity of their tournament and not let an ego-maniac like Naniwa treat them like shit. by punishing him. The vast majority of people, especially their primary audience (Koreans) agree with this punishment. You can disagree and flame GOM all you want, but it's not going to change anything.
Saying GOM can do whatever they want because it's their tournament is a joke. No, they can't do what they want, because eventually the community will backlash. They're getting away this time, but to encourage further power grabs is insanity. And knowing how convenient it is to pick apart an argument as it is literally read and not what is to be implied, i'll restate: No, they can't do ridiculous, controversial shit towards the players/fans as much as they want. Knowing you, you're certainly not above it.
No, the key point is that players/fans have the POWER to influence the way gom does business, and you're content to say we don't and give them all of it. Naniwa is a difficult case cause what he did was wrong and it should never happen again, but GOM had a crappy format to begin with, it was fairly minor, and gave him a huge punishment. If GOM is allowed to continue making such massive knee jerk responses, they will continue and it can only get worse.
The amount of bias towards Naniwa as well only leads me to believe it's simply convenient to cite such non-sense. If anything shrugging off foreign fans as 'foaming-at-the-mouth Naniwa fans,' as actually being the case by GSL (which its not) would only further escalate any conspiratorial mongering of Korea discriminating against the foreign community. (for illiterate dbags, these are not my views)
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On December 15 2011 08:13 careohx wrote:
lol Slasher was so akward on his show. clearly afraid to say anything on the matter
Indeed, well I understand him though, if he doesn't have MLGs POV/statement infront of him, it'd just be stupid to open his mouth about it. It will be interesting to hear what MLG has to say, that it was naniwa is pretty irrelevant, but assuming there weren't any actual decisions before providence about it being Blizzard cup and not code s seed(like everything indicates there weren't, since else MLG would have been lying to everyone), Gom kind of gave them a big "fuck you" too.
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On December 15 2011 08:15 careohx wrote:
Exactly.
You're right, Liquipedia missed a line, correct 4-point rule is here.
1st to 3rd can get Code S if the higher ranking players already have Code S.
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EPT
