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Well the problem with people in low leagues is nearly always mindset and number of games played (and the two are strongly linked)
Try this: When you lose a game you must examine why you lost. And the answer is not "he cheesed me" or "X unit is OP" it's stuff like, "I made drones when it wasnt safe to do so (or vice versa)" or "I engaged badly with my army"
This really helps your mindset when laddering. Say you lose a game because speedlings get into your main base early in the game - you then consider why this happened. Was your own speed late? Were you droning too hard? Do you need better simcity at your natural? Should you have a bane nest or roach warren by that time? If you can end a game and take a breath and say "ok i know what i need to fix" then it makes playing more games easier.
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix.
edit: also something i notice with my bronzy friends is that they just don't think about playing the game right - It's possible to just decide to play faster and do it. Conciously consider your camera positioning and movement. To move an army from A to B you can double tap the hotkey or click the minimap, select units (if you didnt have them hotkeyed), click somewhere else on the minimap, press a and left click with the mouse. It's not a very time-consuming thing. You do not need to click click click click all the way round the map. Nor do you need to have the camera in your base the whole time to oversee you build. Always try to think of the quickest + most efficient way to perform an action.
Try developing a cycle of activities to do in game;
Check Minimap
Control army
Check Minimap
Check minerals, gas, supply
Check Minimap
Build units (without going back to your base with cam)
Check Minimap
Check hatches or queens depending on preference (using hotkeys only) for larva inject progression
Check Minimap
Inject larvae if necessary
Check Minimap
Eventually you will just develop a constant awareness of the minimap and your minerals/gas/supply and the rest will become much easier. One thing i personally still find hard is remembering to build units in the middle of big battles. Often you don't need to control units really that much - move a group forward a step here, target down an immortal there etc. Rest of the time you're just watching it or doing the unnecessary click click click in front of units to move them around. This is time you should spend differently.
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I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps.
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On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix.
Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad.
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On December 15 2011 05:42 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:21 FabledIntegral wrote:
A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds). Not true, I've beaten GMs as Diamond and I know a friend who has as well  50-0 is a bit of a stretch
Sorry to get derailed, but as a High Master's player myself, I can play any race and go 50-0 against a diamond, guaranteed. I know this from playing 1v1 Obs games and checking ranks...
It has to do with either harassing with 1 scv and killing two scvs, or forcing a super-quick wall-off/four spines/a late expansion, or any number of micro tricks. That is not even including simply expanding somewhat early and playing ultra-safe, getting 1.5 times the other guy's economy at the same time.
If you've beaten GMs as diamond, they were the fake GMs who are there because of some kind of exploit or else you are just waiting to be placed into master --regardless, games that were flukes. IMHO, going 150-0 against Diamonds as a GM is not a stretch at all, again assuming you know you are facing diamonds and play as I stated above. Saying Diamond/GM is completely wrong.
On topic, the way I improved from Platinum to Master's was, until low Master's, purely taking builds from pros of all races (I played Random then) and executing them as best I could. Examples: 3 rax, 3 gate robo, Spanishiwa no-gas until ~44 food and then all gases. If you do any legitimate strategy and learn how to execute it properly, you will improve rapidly.
Defense against cheese is all about rational scouting --with your drone, single lings, and overlords-- and, again, builds or strategies that actually make sense.
P.S. Watch your replays and find your errors.
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On December 15 2011 05:21 diLLa wrote:
I start by looking at the mecanical side of the game without involving too many "cute" strategies. I play Protoss, but I can safely say that i could teach anyone to at least platinum level just by teaching the basics.
For zerg for example I would reccommend using a basic build order to start off with, find some replays of good players, not necessarily the best. I for example learn more from Axslav than i could from Hero for example. See what they do and try to mimic their scouting patterns, their reactions etc.
as zerg you should aim to spend all your larvae without missing injects and without getting supply blocked and use basic strategies to win the game. As soon as you get the basic mechanics under control you start adding new things like creep spread and push your macro abilities to the limit. Eventually when the basics are muscle memory you or someone else should start analyze your own replays and look for faults, and fix them 1 by 1.
Try to teach yourself 1 thing at a time. Don't focus on too many things.
This, I can't stress this enough. In my last year of playing this game and trying to read as much guides on improving as possible I feel this is the way to go for any new player.
Day 9 has been doing dailys of Zenio lately with some notebook analysis which I would also recommend anyone who doesn't know well how to analyse replays and improve based on what the pro players are doing.
Also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019
Read that and try to check out your spending quotient for every game you play each day. Very underrated tool to see how well you macro.
For cheese defense, try to identify your opponents builds, but for your league most importantly their expansions. If you don't see an expansion at for example 6 minutes start making a bigger army. Executing your safe macro build order also helps allot in cheese defense.
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Ok so you say you've watched dailies and watch tournaments right? So you more or less have an idea of what you SHOULD be doing but your problem is putting what you've learned into practice. Everyone has this problem, regardless of league.
My suggestion is to watch your replays and see where you went wrong. Serious self-analysis basically. If you can cast aside your emotions from a win or loss and just analyze your play as many games as you can, you'll find big gaping holes that you can improve on. And you should be working on these "holes" one a time (I mean, you're in bronze...so just take it easy, you can only go UP). Also this self-analysis helps for all levels (the earlier you learn it, the better), you just need to know what you should be looking for.
And finally..
On December 15 2011 05:24 Tenks wrote:
I disagree the game has a steep learning curve. The issue is with most players, and it sounds like you as well, is you focus way, way too much on the "strategy" and far too little on the "real time" aspect of the game. Once you realize that until at least low Diamond the game is completely about mechanics and you stop focusing on doing the "most optimal thing" and worry more about "doing anything" the game becomes easier to play. Honestly if a player isn't in at least Diamond they just completely "don't get it" -- imho.
Totally agreed on that. Just work on the simple aspects of the game (to the point where it's nailed down 100%). I.e. let's say you're working on keeping your money low. If you're like any other player, you'll be able to do this when you're under 0 pressure. That's not nailing it 100%. When you check your replays, take a look at how terrible your spending becomes around times where you're under pressure or exerting pressure. If you can still spend in those scenarios, I'd say it's more or less 100% nailed. You have to assume any possible scenario in which your problem can occur, not just in your comfort zone (otherwise it'll seem like you never improve, because you don't know where to be looking in your replays).
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On December 15 2011 05:10 Sippycup wrote:
Where do you start?
So. I hope you don't take anything I say as me trying to be mean or hurtful.
I think the first really important part of learning is accepting that you are terrible. It's not to hurt your ego or anything like that, but in reality ANYTHING you could potentially blame on anything else...you can actually just blame on you being terrible, which lets you control it. It keeps you from getting in a spot where _____is too hard, or _____ is too imba, or _____ is too strong if not scouted. You actually can't get stuck in anything like that because your end answer for why something went badly is, "Oh because I'm learning and I could have done better."
There's a lot you can learn without picking a race, however I think it's best to pick a race. That doesn't mean pick a race and then switch races when things start to go badly.
Know what you're practicing and why, and don't think beyond that.
For example, if you go into a team game, know that realistically you aren't going to get any useful strategy information for 1v1s. You will a little, but realistically, not a lot. However, it's a perfectly good place to work on your unit production. Most 2v2 maps aren't expansion friendly, but you can work on constant unit production; you can work on unit control; you can work on mouse accuracy; you can work on scouting a little bit and trying to have map control.
Keep it simple
I actually mean this to the absolute extreme. I don't care what you scout him doing. Do what you're doing and just keep doing it. Go into the game with a plan on what you're going to do. You don't need to say, "Oh I'm spawning on Meta, so I'm going to ______".
"Today I'm going to go 3 rax all day long. I'm going to contantly make units and workers; I'm going to try to have vision of the map; and I'm going to try _______." That's all you need to focus on. As you really master things you can become more complicated. As you really rank up you can start to worry about strategy and alternate builds and all this other stuff. Really though, even though that might seem really boring and simple, 1. It's not, and 2. Until you can do THAT, you're not actually going to be able to do anything else well. You don't have the decision making skill or the fundamentals to be able to do more than that right now. Picking one set of things and just saying, "this is what I am doing today" WILL make you practice a lot more than you think and be aware of a lot more than you think and you'll find yourself thinking about things and figuring things out and learning a lot more than just that one build from it.
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Watch yo replays, bro. Those can tell you a lot about what you're doing wrong and what you can improve on.
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On December 15 2011 05:26 GhostKorean wrote:
As bronze your goal should be
1. Never stop producing scvs
2. Keep your money as low as possible
It's alright if you stay on one base the whole game in bronze you'll still win if you spend all your money on one base with good mineral saturation
As for the cheese, learn a build order and do it over and over to get it as refined as possible. Do things like scouting at the same food every single game to get used to every single timing. Micro should not be a focus at all. Instead, just send your units to attack and go back to make more units even vs a 2gate proxy. Learn reactions to different cheese builds through experience, and since you're doing the same build over and over your reaction to the cheese should be mechanically performed every game
I like this post because it gives two very clear things the OP can do to improve.
@OP listen to this guy. Even if you just do number 1 you'll see your play improve dramatically.
As for #2 that means that if you're money starts to get high it's time to either build more infrastructure or expand. And mass gaming will help in so far as it can make your perception of the game speed easier. It will slow down the game for you so you can have an easier time processing all the information that is flying at you.
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play co-op vs computers. 2v2 medium, then 3v3 medium, then 2v2 hard, then 3v3 hard etc (very hard / insane really are more about abusing the ai). you will learn mechanics grinding that out, in a relatively stress-free environment.
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On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps.
Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
So you exactly prove his point....
Masters players hopefully should have some baseline level of macro and micro.
OP: Don't get discouraged! If ladder is too mentally draining, then play things like dargleins micro and multitask trainer or grab some buds and crank out 10 games. Regardless of what the most efficient improvement strategy may be, you will never stick with it if you aren't enjoying yourself. Also, people LOVE teaching, so anytime you lose a game, especially vs. a better player, just ask for some tips.
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
numbers are bullshit, you cant say how good someone macros or multitasks with any numbers. You have too feel if you are too slow / cant do stuff you would like to do in the game.
I can try to give some tips, but its very hard for me, since i will simply never understand how players can be in bronze after 13 years of playing bw / sc2. its probably just missing talent. Its even harder for me to understand when i compare it to myself - i played 3 years of wc3, not at a very high level - and when i start to offrace i get instantly into master without even knowing shit about what i do. i guess talent is just a huge factor, but obviously there are always ways to improve:
i personally always tell people to take a standard replay of a very high level player for each matchup of their race and write down every single move they do and at what time they do it, like the first 10 minutes of the game. every worker, every pylon, the whole placement, as much in detail as possible. Then you go into a game with the CPU and simply repeat the build as good as possible, with pausing the game every 30 seconds if youre too slow to read and play.
When you did this, compare it to the pro replay you copy again and make it so often, that you eventually can nearly copy his build without looking at the paper.
The next step would be to do the same thing on other maps. This whole procedure you do vs all races (the replays should be a complete standard bo like nogas-fe tank marine transition @ TvZ e.g.).
NOW, when youre confident you can play the build, even without understanding why the pro did the things he did, enter battlenet and play exactly the 3 build orders you trained to death. The more you play the build, the more you understand how to react to specific things that could accure and how to react correctly. Make sure to watch the pro replay from time to time again to compare it to your games - im sure you will still see huge differences, but thats normal players below masters.
If you dont get a feeling for "what to do when the opponent does X" with your build, try to watch more and more replays with comparable build orders from your race and learn by watching how other players react. You dont have to go into detail too much now, since you just need small informations - your build stays the same the whole time.
I think with this model, even though it costs a lot of time and work to do, you should rise from bronze to gold within 2-3 months. Repeating a build, you will also train your macro and multitasking a lot better than normally, when you play random builds.
Later... a lot later, lets say in platinum, you can start to implement different builds into your play to become more variaty in strategy (although its easily possible to get into master with 1 single build per race). You should be able to identify the ins and outs of new builds much easier once you did it with 1 build step by step and very slowly.
Hope i could help you! gl
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Learn one build for all three matchups. It should be a build that allows for a variety of learning situations (fast expand, push, rush, fast tech, harass, etc). Only use that build on ladder until high Plat/low Diamond. Find a pro replay of that build and make sure your execution is perfectly in sync with theirs.
Every building goes down THE INSTANT you have the money for it. You NEVER cut worker production unless it's planned for ahead of time or in the build order. You NEVER get supply blocked. Your mechanics must be crisp, extremely precise, and second nature; if you have to think at all about what you're doing mechanically, then you haven't mastered that mechanic yet.
Don't worry about strategy yet; simply executing a good build and making a lot of stuff wins games fast in Bronze-Plat. It's only above that level where those things start to actually matter in this game; until then, Starcraft II is a one player game for you.
Stop watching streams. They won't help. They are replays that you cannot control, and are therefore inferior in almost every way. The only exception I find mildly useful as a Protoss player is EG.Axslav, and that's only because he essentially gives free strategy lectures when he streams. After a basic strategic level, there isn't much to be gained from that either. So stay away from most streams unless you want to see the most minute of mechanical improvements that can be made.
Replays are your friend and your lover. Learn to love them, study them, and study them well and often. Only study the best of the best of your race, and your own replays. Mix analysis in with laddering as a way to take a break or gain morale. Analyze some of your wins and ALL your losses.
Balance is NEVER the reason you lose. YOU are the reason you lose. There is no other factor. Ask yourself what your first major mistake was, and how you can improve it. Then focus on that improvement the next chance you get. Do that until said improvement is second nature.
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Well, just to keep it very simple since you are asking where to start I would definetly work on just making drones and try your best to hit injects. Practice your games focusing solely on your macro. Dont focus too much on micro, just keep on droning and hitting injects and make enough units not to die  take it one step at a time from there! Bronze players tends to be quite passive atleast from what im hearing.
Also when you get better at macroing, I would recommend watching MrBitters videos even though some of it starts to get abit updated there is still things of good value there. Look him up on youtube or blip! GL :D
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On December 15 2011 06:01 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix. Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad.
The problem is that the ladder doesn't really let you control many different variables, making it harder to work on something specific. For instance, you can't even choose the matchup, nor the map, so it's hard to practice a particular build that way.
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On December 15 2011 06:19 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though. So you exactly prove his point.... Masters players hopefully should have some baseline level of macro and micro. OP: Don't get discouraged! If ladder is too mentally draining, then play things like dargleins micro and multitask trainer or grab some buds and crank out 10 games. Regardless of what the most efficient improvement strategy may be, you will never stick with it if you aren't enjoying yourself. Also, people LOVE teaching, so anytime you lose a game, especially vs. a better player, just ask for some tips.
No, because I assume I have some game knowledge but it's hard to judge that I suppose.
Like: I should crush my way to diamond with those mechanics alone, and I have not completely terrible game knowledge hence I should be masters.
I guess there should be something wrong in my play anyway but it's hard to assume that when you have double the macro and apm of your opponent and lose anyway. But again why am I not master yet in that case T.T there must be something wrong.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:38 Bojas wrote:
But again why am I not master yet in that case T.T there must be something wrong.
You will be master when you are ready young padawan! Be patient and just keep grinding those games. 
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
You don't need APM for masters league, you need proper builds, proper scouting, and proper responses... That's it. I'm assuming you know how to box your units and pull back stray ones in a fight.
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On December 15 2011 06:37 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:01 Tenks wrote:On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix. Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad. The problem is that the ladder doesn't really let you control many different variables, making it harder to work on something specific. For instance, you can't even choose the matchup, nor the map, so it's hard to practice a particular build that way.
This is true, laddering is basically for people without practice partners (sadly). Would be nice if blizz implemented a way to search for players of a specific race.
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EPT
