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I've been playing Starcraft since I was a kid (1998-99?). It was my first PC game, my first strategy game, even my first game with sound and online support for that matter. I can remember getting on battle.net with one of my closest friends at all hours of the night to do comp stomps because we hated the thought of playing legit against other people. I moved on to Diablo, then Diablo 2, then Halo 2 hardcore but never really getting anywhere outside of PuGs, then moved on to World of Warcraft during alpha, playing that through my tenure in the Navy, and then playing on a top world PvE level up until Cataclysm came out, then mixed that with "high-level" and "pro" play for Modern Warfare 2 on PC.
At that point I finally decided to throw the towel in and try something new out, and while I did pick up Starcraft 2 on opening night, I had only played through the campaign for the story. I had fooled around in 2v2 and 1v1 ladder for a short time on and off through past seasons, then I found myself falling in love with the competitive side of SC2. I watched MLG, stayed up all night to watch GSL live, watched Day9 and State of the Game every chance I had. I found myself being a huge EG fan, watching streams every single day of IdrA, Machine, oGsMC, DRG, and so many others just to entertain myself at first.
Then this current season rolled around. I was off work on the day that the season started and said "screw this, I'm gonna push hard", qualified Bronze as Protoss, then took 3 straight hard losses and put my foot down and decided to try and put what I learned with Zerg to the test. After about 5 matches I was top 8 in my bracket, and after 3 more I was in the number 1 spot, where I stayed for the next day or two and then got dropped down to second. Once that happened I knew I was hooked. I've been fighting hard to stay at the top of my bracket and get better as I moved on.
I've been reading the forums, watching Day9, streams, and tournaments as much as I can to try and learn what to do to make myself better than I already am. I'm even constantly harassing a good friend of mine who is a consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg about how to improve. I've finally hit this point where it feels like I'm face first into a brick wall and can only go backwards from the low level I'm already at. Today alone I took 6 straight losses, and only one of those being to a Protoss cheese.
I'm following strats to the best of my abilities, trying to learn about timings and how to properly scout as Zerg (seeing as all I ever hear is how we're a purely reactive race), and even when I do these things (to what seems like) "right", I keep failing. I always miss this ONE thing, or more often than not cant figure out what I missed even with the knowledge reviewed from replays.
My complaint is NOT that the learning curve is too high, it's not that the game is imbalanced, it's not that things are too hard or that I'm just bad. My complaint isn't even a complaint honestly, it feels more like a plea for help. I feel like I cant find footing in the fundamentals of the game properly. Like even with all the research and knowledge in front of me like I cant get off the ground properly as any race, much less the race I want to play.
Where does someone who's low level (and proud of where he is at low level) go to hit the restart button and boot camp himself to the fundamentals?
Where does someone go to learn how to do the things that constantly get discussed in countless topics on forums all over properly?
Where does someone go to get to the Gold and Plat level + and feel comfortable there?
How does anyone learn how to defend against cheese (because honestly that seems like all my bracket is made up of)?
100 wins in bronze league feels great, but if you honestly and openly feel like you aren't learning anything from playing EVERY SINGLE DAY then how else do you feel but held down?
Where do you start?
EDIT: I want to clarify a few things.
First - After reading through the responses here, some of them have kinda suggested that I had said that I was playing competitively since I was a kid. I HAVE NOT. This is my first season of competitive play of any kind.
Second - Nowhere in my opening post did I mean to suggest that I expected my high level MW2 play to translate over to SC2. Two totally different worlds, and I know it the hard way.
Third - I thought I had written this out pretty well in its own paragraph, but I'll restate it here. I'm in no way stating the game is imbalanced, a unit is OP, or that the learning curve for SC2 is too high/hard.
Fourth - What I meant when I put consistent Diamond/GM player for my friend is that he has played at both levels. Diamond this season due to not qualifying soon enough due to work/family, but played at the GM level last season.
ANSWERS SO FAR:
day9 daily 252 - http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-252-secrets-of-hotkeys-apm-and-mouse-movement-4730506
day9 daily 194 - http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-194-newbie-tuesday-drone-timing-4228999
Focus on spending larvae when they're available. Don't have a mass of larvae built up early or mid game.
Keep your resources low as much as possible.
Focus on ONE strategy per matchup, and stay with it.
Dont worry so much about strategy until high plat.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
You start by looking deep inside yourself and giving your self a big slap on the face! Then wake up and start practicing one thing at a time as you discover them by reading the forums or by yourself. Put up some effort, time and break a sweat if you want to get better.
edit: i am not kidding, that's what you need to do. That's what i did.
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A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds).
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I start by looking at the mecanical side of the game without involving too many "cute" strategies. I play Protoss, but I can safely say that i could teach anyone to at least platinum level just by teaching the basics.
For zerg for example I would reccommend using a basic build order to start off with, find some replays of good players, not necessarily the best. I for example learn more from Axslav than i could from Hero for example. See what they do and try to mimic their scouting patterns, their reactions etc.
as zerg you should aim to spend all your larvae without missing injects and without getting supply blocked and use basic strategies to win the game. As soon as you get the basic mechanics under control you start adding new things like creep spread and push your macro abilities to the limit. Eventually when the basics are muscle memory you or someone else should start analyze your own replays and look for faults, and fix them 1 by 1.
Try to teach yourself 1 thing at a time. Don't focus on too many things.
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I disagree the game has a steep learning curve. The issue is with most players, and it sounds like you as well, is you focus way, way too much on the "strategy" and far too little on the "real time" aspect of the game. Once you realize that until at least low Diamond the game is completely about mechanics and you stop focusing on doing the "most optimal thing" and worry more about "doing anything" the game becomes easier to play. Honestly if a player isn't in at least Diamond they just completely "don't get it" -- imho.
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You can start by showing us replays. Many problems can be identified just by watching you play. I know you're trying to be general, but based on what you've said, I really see the only advice being given as "Work hard and don't give up! Mass game!" You must do those things, but you already know that. So please show us some games and we will gladly help as much as possible.
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On December 15 2011 05:25 Therapist. wrote:
You can start by showing us replays. Many problems can be identified just by watching you play. I know you're trying to be general, but based on what you've said, I really see the only advice being given as "Work hard and don't give up! Mass game!" You must do those things, but you already know that. So please show us some games and we will gladly help as much as possible.
I don't know if mass gaming really helps someone out who fundamentally doesn't understand how to be good at Starcraft
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As bronze your goal should be
1. Never stop producing scvs
2. Keep your money as low as possible
It's alright if you stay on one base the whole game in bronze you'll still win if you spend all your money on one base with good mineral saturation
As for the cheese, learn a build order and do it over and over to get it as refined as possible. Do things like scouting at the same food every single game to get used to every single timing. Micro should not be a focus at all. Instead, just send your units to attack and go back to make more units even vs a 2gate proxy. Learn reactions to different cheese builds through experience, and since you're doing the same build over and over your reaction to the cheese should be mechanically performed every game
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You need to be disciplined 1st. With this discipline, pick 1 pro macro build for each of the 3 matchups and ONLY play that build, win or lose. If you have a diamond/masters partner, play with them on 1 map only. At the end of each game, have your partner tell you 1 thing you did poorly, and the next game try and work on that while doing the same thing you did the game before. That's how you simplify learning a really complex game; by limiting the number of different factors that go into a match.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 15 2011 05:24 Tenks wrote:
Once you realize that until at least low Diamond the game is completely about mechanics
This!!! I am numero uno diamond, rape masters frequently! I almost always actually don't know what the hell am i doing strategy wise. My strategy is shit, my scouting is shit, almost every pro aspect of my game is shit... I am actually where i am just because of micro, reasonable macro and pure mechanics. Just because of my aggressive nature and good micro i am able to be high diamond. I have 3-5 builds perfectly timed till about 8-10 minutes and that's it. I couldn't win a 25 minute game even if guy disconnects. :D
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if you really want to work on mechanics, you really just need to crank out a ton of games. for me, i found a buddy who was just as obsessed with starcraft as i was, and anytime both of us were free, we played 2v2s. it was nice, because it took a lot of the pressure off of me, which was why i had trouble getting a lot of 1v1s under my belt. i still feel that pressure, but it bumped me up from being a struggling plat player to a very comfortable diamond player in probably under a month
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Try to make yourself play faster can be a good way to train mecahnics. Past the first few minutes of the game, you should basically never be looking at the screen without doing anything as there is always something to do in game. When not fighting, you should be working on your infrascturcture at base, get upgrades, take expansions, scout, etc...
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i dropped from diamond zerg to bronze random this season to experiment with offracing to random. i lost my first game in bronze league against a gold player yesterday, in pvt, it was quite hilarious ^_^
but anyways you just have to keep your money low and keep making workers and expand. you can simply win with more stuff. of course you need to scout to see if theres any cheese
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On December 15 2011 05:21 FabledIntegral wrote:
A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds).
Not true, I've beaten GMs as Diamond and I know a friend who has as well  50-0 is a bit of a stretch
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Check out this daily on droning
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4210235/
Also work on not getting supply blocked, not missing injects and scouting. That's basically the skills needed to go from bronze to diamond, once you mastered that then you can work on micro and strategies.
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On December 15 2011 05:42 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:21 FabledIntegral wrote:
A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds). Not true, I've beaten GMs as Diamond and I know a friend who has as well 50-0 is a bit of a stretch
You're on sea aren't you? That would be why
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My advice is to pick up one thing you are doing wrong. I would not start with the mechanics, as they are not what is keeping you back, and it is not what is the most basic and fundamental core in the game. You need to just think like "this i need to fix" and then focus completely on it. For example, go for zerg, and your goal can be to always know what the heck your opponent is doing, and react as you find properly.
Don't loose you passion for the game, keep on fighting, i think so many people(like me) can relate to you! 
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Yeah, Day9TV 100-200 episodes were gold for a low level player like me. See for example this or this.
I went from bronze (never played RTS before) to diamond in 111 games (I play terran, ironic, isn't it). And as others have said, it came from making one single build crisp and mechanically perfect. I always learned by tiny little increments: if someone did something (DT rush for example), I'd go and grind out games with a friend or customs, trying to find a solution that worked for me and, also, perfecting the solution. I wanted my mind and fingers to work quickly and efficiently without too much thinking being involved. But it's probably more important just to make a ton of stuff without missing building placement times, drones and supply. Remember, time is a resource in sc2, every second you waste makes you weaker.
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"Diamond/GM"? What?
That's like saying "My friend is a consistent Bronze/Master player".
...
On topic:
Work on finding holes in your play and patching them up. It doesn't matter which holes you choose to focus on, just work on improving them.
For example, I disliked completing builds a good 30 to 40 seconds late. By just focusing on doing the build properly, I was able to improve drastically in a short period of time.
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Diamond/GM Level is a silly thing to say first of all, but you remind me of my friend who came from competitive cod and thought he was going to be the best at starcraft 2 and was stuck in bronze after 300 games without knowing how to improve.
Basically what it comes down to is you need to work on mechanics, you say you don't know how to improve anymore? You are in Bronze League man that is like insanely easy to say whats wrong or know what you are doing wrong unless you completely have 0 understanding on how this game works which can not be true since you watch so much starcraft 2.
You need to focus on your mechanics and improving your mechanics(Macro mostly). Than you need to work on having somewhat of a build order which is not a huge deal until you get to the higher leagues. Its also important for you to know that no matter how you lose, it is not because of balance, and if you ever blame balance you will improve very slowly at this game.
If you truly can not for the life of you figure out what you did wrong when you lose, you need to check out the thread on teamliquid that shows you how to analyze your replays
+ Show Spoiler +
A good mindset to improve, focusing on what to improve and always blaming your self for losing is very important. A few things I noticed about your post was that you slightly seem to think balance may be a tad bit of an issue such as the part with "only one of the games lost was to protoss cheese" Perhaps I am wrong by the way I interpreted it but even games such as that can teach you a whole lot.
If you have any questions or need help in general you can message me on TL.
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Well the problem with people in low leagues is nearly always mindset and number of games played (and the two are strongly linked)
Try this: When you lose a game you must examine why you lost. And the answer is not "he cheesed me" or "X unit is OP" it's stuff like, "I made drones when it wasnt safe to do so (or vice versa)" or "I engaged badly with my army"
This really helps your mindset when laddering. Say you lose a game because speedlings get into your main base early in the game - you then consider why this happened. Was your own speed late? Were you droning too hard? Do you need better simcity at your natural? Should you have a bane nest or roach warren by that time? If you can end a game and take a breath and say "ok i know what i need to fix" then it makes playing more games easier.
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix.
edit: also something i notice with my bronzy friends is that they just don't think about playing the game right - It's possible to just decide to play faster and do it. Conciously consider your camera positioning and movement. To move an army from A to B you can double tap the hotkey or click the minimap, select units (if you didnt have them hotkeyed), click somewhere else on the minimap, press a and left click with the mouse. It's not a very time-consuming thing. You do not need to click click click click all the way round the map. Nor do you need to have the camera in your base the whole time to oversee you build. Always try to think of the quickest + most efficient way to perform an action.
Try developing a cycle of activities to do in game;
Check Minimap
Control army
Check Minimap
Check minerals, gas, supply
Check Minimap
Build units (without going back to your base with cam)
Check Minimap
Check hatches or queens depending on preference (using hotkeys only) for larva inject progression
Check Minimap
Inject larvae if necessary
Check Minimap
Eventually you will just develop a constant awareness of the minimap and your minerals/gas/supply and the rest will become much easier. One thing i personally still find hard is remembering to build units in the middle of big battles. Often you don't need to control units really that much - move a group forward a step here, target down an immortal there etc. Rest of the time you're just watching it or doing the unnecessary click click click in front of units to move them around. This is time you should spend differently.
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I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps.
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On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix.
Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad.
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On December 15 2011 05:42 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:21 FabledIntegral wrote:
A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds). Not true, I've beaten GMs as Diamond and I know a friend who has as well 50-0 is a bit of a stretch
Sorry to get derailed, but as a High Master's player myself, I can play any race and go 50-0 against a diamond, guaranteed. I know this from playing 1v1 Obs games and checking ranks...
It has to do with either harassing with 1 scv and killing two scvs, or forcing a super-quick wall-off/four spines/a late expansion, or any number of micro tricks. That is not even including simply expanding somewhat early and playing ultra-safe, getting 1.5 times the other guy's economy at the same time.
If you've beaten GMs as diamond, they were the fake GMs who are there because of some kind of exploit or else you are just waiting to be placed into master --regardless, games that were flukes. IMHO, going 150-0 against Diamonds as a GM is not a stretch at all, again assuming you know you are facing diamonds and play as I stated above. Saying Diamond/GM is completely wrong.
On topic, the way I improved from Platinum to Master's was, until low Master's, purely taking builds from pros of all races (I played Random then) and executing them as best I could. Examples: 3 rax, 3 gate robo, Spanishiwa no-gas until ~44 food and then all gases. If you do any legitimate strategy and learn how to execute it properly, you will improve rapidly.
Defense against cheese is all about rational scouting --with your drone, single lings, and overlords-- and, again, builds or strategies that actually make sense.
P.S. Watch your replays and find your errors.
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On December 15 2011 05:21 diLLa wrote:
I start by looking at the mecanical side of the game without involving too many "cute" strategies. I play Protoss, but I can safely say that i could teach anyone to at least platinum level just by teaching the basics.
For zerg for example I would reccommend using a basic build order to start off with, find some replays of good players, not necessarily the best. I for example learn more from Axslav than i could from Hero for example. See what they do and try to mimic their scouting patterns, their reactions etc.
as zerg you should aim to spend all your larvae without missing injects and without getting supply blocked and use basic strategies to win the game. As soon as you get the basic mechanics under control you start adding new things like creep spread and push your macro abilities to the limit. Eventually when the basics are muscle memory you or someone else should start analyze your own replays and look for faults, and fix them 1 by 1.
Try to teach yourself 1 thing at a time. Don't focus on too many things.
This, I can't stress this enough. In my last year of playing this game and trying to read as much guides on improving as possible I feel this is the way to go for any new player.
Day 9 has been doing dailys of Zenio lately with some notebook analysis which I would also recommend anyone who doesn't know well how to analyse replays and improve based on what the pro players are doing.
Also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=266019
Read that and try to check out your spending quotient for every game you play each day. Very underrated tool to see how well you macro.
For cheese defense, try to identify your opponents builds, but for your league most importantly their expansions. If you don't see an expansion at for example 6 minutes start making a bigger army. Executing your safe macro build order also helps allot in cheese defense.
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Ok so you say you've watched dailies and watch tournaments right? So you more or less have an idea of what you SHOULD be doing but your problem is putting what you've learned into practice. Everyone has this problem, regardless of league.
My suggestion is to watch your replays and see where you went wrong. Serious self-analysis basically. If you can cast aside your emotions from a win or loss and just analyze your play as many games as you can, you'll find big gaping holes that you can improve on. And you should be working on these "holes" one a time (I mean, you're in bronze...so just take it easy, you can only go UP). Also this self-analysis helps for all levels (the earlier you learn it, the better), you just need to know what you should be looking for.
And finally..
On December 15 2011 05:24 Tenks wrote:
I disagree the game has a steep learning curve. The issue is with most players, and it sounds like you as well, is you focus way, way too much on the "strategy" and far too little on the "real time" aspect of the game. Once you realize that until at least low Diamond the game is completely about mechanics and you stop focusing on doing the "most optimal thing" and worry more about "doing anything" the game becomes easier to play. Honestly if a player isn't in at least Diamond they just completely "don't get it" -- imho.
Totally agreed on that. Just work on the simple aspects of the game (to the point where it's nailed down 100%). I.e. let's say you're working on keeping your money low. If you're like any other player, you'll be able to do this when you're under 0 pressure. That's not nailing it 100%. When you check your replays, take a look at how terrible your spending becomes around times where you're under pressure or exerting pressure. If you can still spend in those scenarios, I'd say it's more or less 100% nailed. You have to assume any possible scenario in which your problem can occur, not just in your comfort zone (otherwise it'll seem like you never improve, because you don't know where to be looking in your replays).
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On December 15 2011 05:10 Sippycup wrote:
Where do you start?
So. I hope you don't take anything I say as me trying to be mean or hurtful.
I think the first really important part of learning is accepting that you are terrible. It's not to hurt your ego or anything like that, but in reality ANYTHING you could potentially blame on anything else...you can actually just blame on you being terrible, which lets you control it. It keeps you from getting in a spot where _____is too hard, or _____ is too imba, or _____ is too strong if not scouted. You actually can't get stuck in anything like that because your end answer for why something went badly is, "Oh because I'm learning and I could have done better."
There's a lot you can learn without picking a race, however I think it's best to pick a race. That doesn't mean pick a race and then switch races when things start to go badly.
Know what you're practicing and why, and don't think beyond that.
For example, if you go into a team game, know that realistically you aren't going to get any useful strategy information for 1v1s. You will a little, but realistically, not a lot. However, it's a perfectly good place to work on your unit production. Most 2v2 maps aren't expansion friendly, but you can work on constant unit production; you can work on unit control; you can work on mouse accuracy; you can work on scouting a little bit and trying to have map control.
Keep it simple
I actually mean this to the absolute extreme. I don't care what you scout him doing. Do what you're doing and just keep doing it. Go into the game with a plan on what you're going to do. You don't need to say, "Oh I'm spawning on Meta, so I'm going to ______".
"Today I'm going to go 3 rax all day long. I'm going to contantly make units and workers; I'm going to try to have vision of the map; and I'm going to try _______." That's all you need to focus on. As you really master things you can become more complicated. As you really rank up you can start to worry about strategy and alternate builds and all this other stuff. Really though, even though that might seem really boring and simple, 1. It's not, and 2. Until you can do THAT, you're not actually going to be able to do anything else well. You don't have the decision making skill or the fundamentals to be able to do more than that right now. Picking one set of things and just saying, "this is what I am doing today" WILL make you practice a lot more than you think and be aware of a lot more than you think and you'll find yourself thinking about things and figuring things out and learning a lot more than just that one build from it.
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Watch yo replays, bro. Those can tell you a lot about what you're doing wrong and what you can improve on.
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On December 15 2011 05:26 GhostKorean wrote:
As bronze your goal should be
1. Never stop producing scvs
2. Keep your money as low as possible
It's alright if you stay on one base the whole game in bronze you'll still win if you spend all your money on one base with good mineral saturation
As for the cheese, learn a build order and do it over and over to get it as refined as possible. Do things like scouting at the same food every single game to get used to every single timing. Micro should not be a focus at all. Instead, just send your units to attack and go back to make more units even vs a 2gate proxy. Learn reactions to different cheese builds through experience, and since you're doing the same build over and over your reaction to the cheese should be mechanically performed every game
I like this post because it gives two very clear things the OP can do to improve.
@OP listen to this guy. Even if you just do number 1 you'll see your play improve dramatically.
As for #2 that means that if you're money starts to get high it's time to either build more infrastructure or expand. And mass gaming will help in so far as it can make your perception of the game speed easier. It will slow down the game for you so you can have an easier time processing all the information that is flying at you.
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play co-op vs computers. 2v2 medium, then 3v3 medium, then 2v2 hard, then 3v3 hard etc (very hard / insane really are more about abusing the ai). you will learn mechanics grinding that out, in a relatively stress-free environment.
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On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps.
Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
So you exactly prove his point....
Masters players hopefully should have some baseline level of macro and micro.
OP: Don't get discouraged! If ladder is too mentally draining, then play things like dargleins micro and multitask trainer or grab some buds and crank out 10 games. Regardless of what the most efficient improvement strategy may be, you will never stick with it if you aren't enjoying yourself. Also, people LOVE teaching, so anytime you lose a game, especially vs. a better player, just ask for some tips.
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
numbers are bullshit, you cant say how good someone macros or multitasks with any numbers. You have too feel if you are too slow / cant do stuff you would like to do in the game.
I can try to give some tips, but its very hard for me, since i will simply never understand how players can be in bronze after 13 years of playing bw / sc2. its probably just missing talent. Its even harder for me to understand when i compare it to myself - i played 3 years of wc3, not at a very high level - and when i start to offrace i get instantly into master without even knowing shit about what i do. i guess talent is just a huge factor, but obviously there are always ways to improve:
i personally always tell people to take a standard replay of a very high level player for each matchup of their race and write down every single move they do and at what time they do it, like the first 10 minutes of the game. every worker, every pylon, the whole placement, as much in detail as possible. Then you go into a game with the CPU and simply repeat the build as good as possible, with pausing the game every 30 seconds if youre too slow to read and play.
When you did this, compare it to the pro replay you copy again and make it so often, that you eventually can nearly copy his build without looking at the paper.
The next step would be to do the same thing on other maps. This whole procedure you do vs all races (the replays should be a complete standard bo like nogas-fe tank marine transition @ TvZ e.g.).
NOW, when youre confident you can play the build, even without understanding why the pro did the things he did, enter battlenet and play exactly the 3 build orders you trained to death. The more you play the build, the more you understand how to react to specific things that could accure and how to react correctly. Make sure to watch the pro replay from time to time again to compare it to your games - im sure you will still see huge differences, but thats normal players below masters.
If you dont get a feeling for "what to do when the opponent does X" with your build, try to watch more and more replays with comparable build orders from your race and learn by watching how other players react. You dont have to go into detail too much now, since you just need small informations - your build stays the same the whole time.
I think with this model, even though it costs a lot of time and work to do, you should rise from bronze to gold within 2-3 months. Repeating a build, you will also train your macro and multitasking a lot better than normally, when you play random builds.
Later... a lot later, lets say in platinum, you can start to implement different builds into your play to become more variaty in strategy (although its easily possible to get into master with 1 single build per race). You should be able to identify the ins and outs of new builds much easier once you did it with 1 build step by step and very slowly.
Hope i could help you! gl
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Learn one build for all three matchups. It should be a build that allows for a variety of learning situations (fast expand, push, rush, fast tech, harass, etc). Only use that build on ladder until high Plat/low Diamond. Find a pro replay of that build and make sure your execution is perfectly in sync with theirs.
Every building goes down THE INSTANT you have the money for it. You NEVER cut worker production unless it's planned for ahead of time or in the build order. You NEVER get supply blocked. Your mechanics must be crisp, extremely precise, and second nature; if you have to think at all about what you're doing mechanically, then you haven't mastered that mechanic yet.
Don't worry about strategy yet; simply executing a good build and making a lot of stuff wins games fast in Bronze-Plat. It's only above that level where those things start to actually matter in this game; until then, Starcraft II is a one player game for you.
Stop watching streams. They won't help. They are replays that you cannot control, and are therefore inferior in almost every way. The only exception I find mildly useful as a Protoss player is EG.Axslav, and that's only because he essentially gives free strategy lectures when he streams. After a basic strategic level, there isn't much to be gained from that either. So stay away from most streams unless you want to see the most minute of mechanical improvements that can be made.
Replays are your friend and your lover. Learn to love them, study them, and study them well and often. Only study the best of the best of your race, and your own replays. Mix analysis in with laddering as a way to take a break or gain morale. Analyze some of your wins and ALL your losses.
Balance is NEVER the reason you lose. YOU are the reason you lose. There is no other factor. Ask yourself what your first major mistake was, and how you can improve it. Then focus on that improvement the next chance you get. Do that until said improvement is second nature.
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Well, just to keep it very simple since you are asking where to start I would definetly work on just making drones and try your best to hit injects. Practice your games focusing solely on your macro. Dont focus too much on micro, just keep on droning and hitting injects and make enough units not to die  take it one step at a time from there! Bronze players tends to be quite passive atleast from what im hearing.
Also when you get better at macroing, I would recommend watching MrBitters videos even though some of it starts to get abit updated there is still things of good value there. Look him up on youtube or blip! GL :D
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On December 15 2011 06:01 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix. Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad.
The problem is that the ladder doesn't really let you control many different variables, making it harder to work on something specific. For instance, you can't even choose the matchup, nor the map, so it's hard to practice a particular build that way.
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On December 15 2011 06:19 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though. So you exactly prove his point.... Masters players hopefully should have some baseline level of macro and micro. OP: Don't get discouraged! If ladder is too mentally draining, then play things like dargleins micro and multitask trainer or grab some buds and crank out 10 games. Regardless of what the most efficient improvement strategy may be, you will never stick with it if you aren't enjoying yourself. Also, people LOVE teaching, so anytime you lose a game, especially vs. a better player, just ask for some tips.
No, because I assume I have some game knowledge but it's hard to judge that I suppose.
Like: I should crush my way to diamond with those mechanics alone, and I have not completely terrible game knowledge hence I should be masters.
I guess there should be something wrong in my play anyway but it's hard to assume that when you have double the macro and apm of your opponent and lose anyway. But again why am I not master yet in that case T.T there must be something wrong.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 15 2011 06:38 Bojas wrote:
But again why am I not master yet in that case T.T there must be something wrong.
You will be master when you are ready young padawan! Be patient and just keep grinding those games.
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On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though.
You don't need APM for masters league, you need proper builds, proper scouting, and proper responses... That's it. I'm assuming you know how to box your units and pull back stray ones in a fight.
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On December 15 2011 06:37 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:01 Tenks wrote:On December 15 2011 05:59 Zrana wrote:
If you play to improve, not play to win, then every loss is just someone pointing out mistakes in your play that you should fix. Unfortunately most players view the ladder as just a handy tool to keep track of their win/loss and rarely play with meaning. I generally always go into a game with the idea of something I need to work on and if I win that is just gravy. If I lose and I didn't work on that aspect well that is really the only time I rage. It is generally raging at myself for being so bad. The problem is that the ladder doesn't really let you control many different variables, making it harder to work on something specific. For instance, you can't even choose the matchup, nor the map, so it's hard to practice a particular build that way.
This is true, laddering is basically for people without practice partners (sadly). Would be nice if blizz implemented a way to search for players of a specific race.
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First reply had it right. Wake yourself up. Stop practicing sloppily, start learning the game and practicing FOR REAL. Scout more, watch your replays more. You should be able to learn so easily just from watching your replays and identifying mistakes that cost you the game.
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I went from Bronze to gold top 8 almost instantly when it hit me. I was watching MLG grandfinals and they were calling Leenock's strats all-ins. He was essentially 7 roach rushing and I realized that was why I was screwed if I failed. I tried to make a big army, then it would be killed and i would have no eco. I then started to scout more, learned how to scout pushed, learned when to make drones and when to not. I use 15 hatch alot not against terran. i just started feeling OP because when i scouted i countered a terran perfectly and there was nothing he could do. of course this is only gold. harder in better divisions. but yeah scout. make drones. dont just make a big damn army,
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I don't think that it's a hard game to learn at the lower levels, it's just newer players don't really know how to self improve at the game.
Learning basic mechanics and macro are not really that hard to do. It comes with playing a lot of games as well as watching replays to see which element of each skill that needs to be worked on.
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Don't think about strategy nonsense.
Play to win.
Play to have fun.
Play for the sake of playing.
if you get caught up in improving and all that nonsense, you're going to do worse. Fact: you don't need to read anything about build orders or strategy or watch vods or anything to get to masters, especially not on the NA server.
just stfu, stop writing blogs, stop reading guides, stop watching replays, and go play. that's really all there is to it. Unless you're planning to make money off it, it's just a game. remember that.
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eh you had my problem watch more stuff then you prob play, I had your problem best advice I heard was never float money. that alone will get you to at least plat. to get above plat can be something as simple as abusing something or make the right stuff
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On December 15 2011 09:36 Fishgle wrote:
if you get caught up in improving and all that nonsense, you're going to do worse. .
No offense but I think that's one of the most preposterous things I've ever read on TL.
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No offense, but seriously you suck cause your mechanics suck. Not even because of scouting necessarily. If you never miss a larvae inject and build a queen/hatchery you'll get to gold pretty fast. try backspace injecting.
Zerg tips-
You should download a replay from a pro play for every race and repeat their build up to about 100 when they play against a similar build as what you see.
Try Yabot. learn hotkeys. I would go roach hydra every matchup. count your drones. 16 only on minerals. if you get to 16 either build units or expand.
The easiest fix--- build like 3 spine crawlers for every matchup, and spore crawelrs for protoss and drone behind it. if you see units. build roaches or roaches and hydras. Never ever ever miss a larvae inject. for every two mining bases get 3 hatcheries.
good luck.
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First I'd like to just say THANK YOU to every single post in reply, even the ones I feel are a bit too harsh or didn't read all of what I opened with. Ya'll giving me a push like this and actually giving me things to look in to makes me feel really good about practicing all day tomorrow (or later today, whatever).
I'm going to be reading more in to the responses, checking more of these tips, and looking in to practicing with other people off ladder tomorrow.
Also, I edited a few things in the opening post for clarification.
Please, feel free to continue to post suggestions and talk more. If it weren't 2AM I would pick specific things out right now to ask more about, but again... it's 2AM and I need sleep to play in the right mindset.
Again, the response to this is overwhelming to me, I didn't expect this much information, I honestly expected flames. Thank you guys very very much!
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On December 15 2011 05:29 Mesha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:24 Tenks wrote:
Once you realize that until at least low Diamond the game is completely about mechanics This!!! I am numero uno diamond, rape masters frequently! I almost always actually don't know what the hell am i doing strategy wise. My strategy is shit, my scouting is shit, almost every pro aspect of my game is shit... I am actually where i am just because of micro, reasonable macro and pure mechanics. Just because of my aggressive nature and good micro i am able to be high diamond. I have 3-5 builds perfectly timed till about 8-10 minutes and that's it. I couldn't win a 25 minute game even if guy disconnects. :D
cuz all-in = skill right
I think you should listen to day9 when he says know what you generally want to do in each match up. Eg take a fast third and get a army of A, B and C. Just play the style you like to play, if you like short games, learn some all ins. (liquidpedia has many listed by BO) or if you like macro games, try taking ridiculously early 2nd and 3rd bases and see if you can hold it.
I prefer macro games, so for Tvt and Pvt I 1rax FE, while TvZ I do the standard reactor helion expo.
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Ok, new day, completely open schedule from now till 6PM EST.
Practice, all day.
Responses:
-I spent all of the time after I got home from work last night watching the day9 daily on drone timing, and I really feel like it opened my eyes quite a bit as to what my issues are. I find myself constantly having a fear that I've build "too many drones" on 2 base, especially early game, and I get smashed by a small force, even when I have an army of some size ready to defend. I'm constantly worried about losing queens to defense, and I'm not using spine crawlers and lings to the best of my ability against any opponent.
*Today I'm gonna focus on ZvZ and ZvP and how to play with a proper economy and HOW TO SCOUT THE FRONT so that I can play to react early to early-mid game.
*I'm going to try and rely on power units early game to hold down the fort till around a 3'rd hatch then start making aggressive pokes and muta harassing.
*I'm going to focus on ONE BUILD for each matchup, but focus on economy and upgrades for early game and reactionary unit production instead of massing a huge army.
More as I keep checking this thread. Thank you all so much, and again, please feel free to keep comments coming! I'm reading near all of them.
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Focus. On. Macro.
At bronze strategies don't work. Don't even bother watching Day9 until ~gold. All that matters is not getting supply blocked, not letting your money pile up, constantly injecting, and hotkeying your production. Its better to die with too many workers than too few. Don't even bother microing or even thinking about strategy yet. I 100% guarantee that I could beat any bronze player with only one unit from a race if I had to (save workers and motherships).
'
All that matters is macro in bronze.
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On December 15 2011 05:10 Sippycup wrote:
Where does someone who's low level (and proud of where he is at low level) go to hit the restart button and boot camp himself to the fundamentals?
Where does someone go to learn how to do the things that constantly get discussed in countless topics on forums all over properly?
Where does someone go to get to the Gold and Plat level + and feel comfortable there?
How does anyone learn how to defend against cheese (because honestly that seems like all my bracket is made up of)?
Well, I've been thinking about writing a big guide for bronze/silver players how to get to platinum. However, I've decided not to since there's just SO MUCH of that already.
This forum has TONS of resources in the strategy forum on how to improve, how to scout, how to macro. There's a billion youtube channels where peoeple teach n00bs how to defend a 6 pool, how to macro etc decently.
It seems that your problem is that you've missed all of those resources... so it doesn't feel worth it for me, and probably anyone else, to write guides, because people who need them won't be reading them.
I've still thinking about doing it, because I feel maybe I can bring something new to the table.. I find many guides are written by master+ players, who tell newbies to learn X and Y strategies, builds etc, and don't focus on showing that none of that is needed if you're in bronze/silver, all you need is macro and focusing on what's important. I'm platinum myself, and I can teach anyone, probably in less than 5 hours, to play like me and get to platinum, because I'm not a pro and I don't do anything advanced. If I can do it, anyone can, and you don't need to be fast or smart to play like me.
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On December 15 2011 22:52 Papulatus wrote:
Focus. On. Macro.
At bronze strategies don't work. Don't even bother watching Day9 until ~gold. All that matters is not getting supply blocked, not letting your money pile up, constantly injecting, and hotkeying your production. Its better to die with too many workers than too few. Don't even bother microing or even thinking about strategy yet. I 100% guarantee that I could beat any bronze player with only one unit from a race if I had to (save workers and motherships).
'
All that matters is macro in bronze.
Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling. Two hours to break down a replay? It should take you 45 minutes to an hour for a thorough, multiple play-through assessment at most.
Low level players cannot appreciate most of what he talks about anyway; they can more efficiently spend their time grinding mechanics or watching their own replays.
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On December 15 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:
... Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling. Two hours to break down a replay? It should take you 45 minutes to an hour for a thorough, multiple play-through assessment at most ...
In general I like the daily, some of the newbie tuesday episodes were really helpful to me, but I was wondering whether only I felt this way about his profuse speaking. Often I must rewind the daily to get his point, sometimes I must really, really pay attention to get what he is actually talking about and sometimes even he loses his thoughts.
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On December 15 2011 23:25 Gesh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:
... Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling. Two hours to break down a replay? It should take you 45 minutes to an hour for a thorough, multiple play-through assessment at most ...
In general I like the daily, some of the newbie tuesday episodes were really helpful to me, but I was wondering whether only I felt this way about his profuse speaking. Often I must rewind the daily to get his point, sometimes I must really, really pay attention to get what he is actually talking about and sometimes even he loses his thoughts.
I think anyone that tries to speak to 5000+ people per day (not to mention VoDs), for an hour+ and tries to keep their composure and focus will do just the opposite.
I feel like I learned a lot from the dailys that I watched last night and this morning, and honestly it's because of the depth that he goes in to for the fine details, not to mention the repetition. ANY musician will tell you that practice and repetition are the keys to success at your instrument, and I feel that the same applies to any level of competitive SC play.
If you know WHY you're doing something as a baseline mechanic to a new player, you're probably less inclined to fool with it until you get it solid. For instance - "Oh, I'm constantly making workers on any race in order to not just maintain but expand my economy as my force and my enemy's force grows, so I have the room to replace anything I may lose from an engagement really fast." instead of "I feel like I've made enough drones, I'm stopping."
So far today in my matches against hard and very hard Protoss I've noticed that around 10 mins I seem to have a really huge surplus of minerals, and I'm pretty sure it's due to over-droning, but I'm not 100% sure. I've been trying to take a third around 10-11 mins, and it seems to be working, but I still have a surplus of minerals and a tad over on gas. I can never seem to whittle things down to that 0 level.
EDIT: On second thought, maybe it's due to me just building units as a reactionary measure when I notice some kind of push is coming. I think things will be totally different when I'm playing on ladder again.
Does that mean I'm focusing TOO much on my economy mid game?
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A steep learning curve means that something is easy to learn btw...
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On December 16 2011 00:19 IMoperator wrote:
A steep learning curve means that something is easy to learn btw...
I didn't say the curve was steep, I said there was a curve.
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if you learn when to drone and when to build units (macro), you will basically win any game at bronze level that is more than 5 minutes long. then eventually after you have macro down you can read on what to scout for, and also with more experience you'll naturally learn what to scout for, for example, if you see a terran with 2 gas and staying on 1 base, you may not know what he's doing during the game but as you play more of these builds and watch the replay, you will learn all the possible situations that you may be in.
what really helped me after ret started streaming in BW was basically copy what the progamers you see on stream do. The way they play, the way their screen looks, try to do what they do
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On December 15 2011 07:12 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:12 Bojas wrote:On December 15 2011 06:00 jj33 wrote:
I am in Upper masters.
To get into diamond from bronze all you need to practice and get decent with is 1 thing.
Macro and multi tasking that's it.
You can literally power your way to diamond no problem if you have the macro to do so.
There is no secret build or strategy that will magically bring you up, at your level you should only be concerned with macro.
Hope that helps. Maybe it's a different debate, but I right now I am still in upper diamond being stuck. I average about 200 sc2gears apm and 120 eapm and my SQ is like mid masters average. Still not able to hit masters somehow, I have awful micro though. You don't need APM for masters league, you need proper builds, proper scouting, and proper responses... That's it. I'm assuming you know how to box your units and pull back stray ones in a fight.
All you need for masters + Show Spoiler +IS TO WIN AGAINST OTHER MASTER LEAGUE PLAYERS
Different people have different strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure I could get to master league off of my mechanics alone, but other people could get in by understanding the game or having really strong, crisp all-in builds.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 15 2011 16:01 IamNatural wrote: cuz all-in = skill right
Just to clarify, i wasn't bragging, i was just making a plastic picture for the guy we are trying to help giving him example with what he can be high diamond. And it's not all ins, its good builds, builds have expo and every thing but somehow my play style is blind to everything beyond 10th minute .
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If you have a huge mineral surplus 10 minutes in, its not because you have over-droned. You are definitely lacking the Zerg resource larva. So at ten minutes in, this most definitely means not enough Queens or being very late with your injects. Whenever you see your minerals jump that high, you should automatically know you are behind on larva.
to solve: best way > Hit injects
second best way > Make more hatches
Make more queens > spread creep
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 15 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:
Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling.
This is the first time in my life i don't feel alone about the Day9Daily crap. Everybody likes that and shit but i would rather watch my room's wall than daily. I love him as a caster and master of ceremony but his show and his head in the frame for that long... ooo man it's a fucking torture. ..."let's pause... what is he thinking...you might think he is thinking about this but he is thinking about this...lets look at the resources...25 minerals..can i build ..."
I just don't understand that so many people like that show. Day9 is great caster and master of ceremony but his show is just bad. My opinion.
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On December 15 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 22:52 Papulatus wrote:
Focus. On. Macro.
At bronze strategies don't work. Don't even bother watching Day9 until ~gold. All that matters is not getting supply blocked, not letting your money pile up, constantly injecting, and hotkeying your production. Its better to die with too many workers than too few. Don't even bother microing or even thinking about strategy yet. I 100% guarantee that I could beat any bronze player with only one unit from a race if I had to (save workers and motherships).
'
All that matters is macro in bronze. Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling. Two hours to break down a replay? It should take you 45 minutes to an hour for a thorough, multiple play-through assessment at most. Low level players cannot appreciate most of what he talks about anyway; they can more efficiently spend their time grinding mechanics or watching their own replays.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you don't appreciate Day9 as a resource then you have nothing useful to say about Starcraft 2. You don't have to like his show. But calling him "worthless" is indicative of a gross misunderstanding of this game and how to go about improving at it.
He has earned his place as the god of knowledge in the Starcraft 2 pantheon. Everyone can learn from him.
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On December 15 2011 05:26 GhostKorean wrote:
As bronze your goal should be
1. Never stop producing scvs
2. Keep your money as low as possible
It's alright if you stay on one base the whole game in bronze you'll still win if you spend all your money on one base with good mineral saturation
As for the cheese, learn a build order and do it over and over to get it as refined as possible. Do things like scouting at the same food every single game to get used to every single timing. Micro should not be a focus at all. Instead, just send your units to attack and go back to make more units even vs a 2gate proxy. Learn reactions to different cheese builds through experience, and since you're doing the same build over and over your reaction to the cheese should be mechanically performed every game
I don't get it. I was placed in Gold after buying the game and doing my placement matches, but one of the matches involved someone leaving 15 seconds in. My MMR ended up slipping down to Bronze players while I remained in Gold.
I'd say about half the players I get matched with don't have a clear direction with their builds (or remain on one base) and I crush them pretty easily (working on the quickly part). The other half, though... have clear build orders and micro very well. I don't know if I'm just running into a TON of smurf accounts or what... but most people generalize that getting out of bronze is keeping your money low and a-moving your units to your opponents base.
A ZvP I played the other day, I lost because his phoenix harass (which I scouted and had spores up for) was micro'd very well and I ended up losing two queens and a good number of drones. I was able to re-expand but by that time he had his death ball fully operational and tore through all of my units easily and forced the gg.
A ZvT I played the other day took me an hour and 8 minutes to win. His tank positioning and base defense rendered my muta/ling/bling almost useless. I contained him to three bases most of the game, and meanwhile expanded all over my half of the map, spreading creep as I went. I was on 7 or 8 bases when finally after a few small trades in the middle of the map, he moved out to take out my expos and I had a sizable Destiny-style spine wall at my nat and third so I took my rebuilt army and base traded essentially, was able to take out his buildings before he could get to mine. To break through his defenses in retrospect I should have gone greater spire much earlier and taken a force of broods, corruptors and queens to push through his defense. But that's hardly a-moving and would have been pretty micro intensive.
In all of my games I hit my timings on my 14/14 pretty on point, and for most of the game I'm waiting on money to become available unless I'm saving up for something.
/rant
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On December 16 2011 00:08 Sippycup wrote:
EDIT: On second thought, maybe it's due to me just building units as a reactionary measure when I notice some kind of push is coming. I think things will be totally different when I'm playing on ladder again.
Does that mean I'm focusing TOO much on my economy mid game?
Economy is the most important thing, but of course as Zerg the trick is knowing when to switch to making stuff. Here are some thoughts about everything BUT economy:
Speaking from somewhere around the gold/platinum threshold I can tell you a couple things that have very much reduced my fear in the early game. All this assumes that you're keeping your money low (say, under 500):
First, IF you nail larva injects, expand fast enough, and have good enough map vision to see exactly when your opponent moves out of his base and with what, on larger maps you can pretty much do nothing but drone up until the opponent moves out, then spam units. The trick to this is that you must get your income high enough that you can spam units and not run dry on income when you have to -- what you don't want is to have a low income and not be able to use all the larva you've piled up. You also usually wouldn't want to save minerals up for this, since spending those minerals on drones or tech up front will put you in a better position than not. This works best when your opponent is being aggressive and attacking early with a relatively small force.
Second: If you see that your opponent is just hanging back with a massive army, which from my bronze league memories is pretty common, you can feel comfortable switching from econ to unit production once you feel you can swiftly make enough to match them. I'd like to do this no earlier than having two bases saturated and a third coming up, then mix in units while getting the third saturated.
Third: Know the earliest possible timings that you would need anti-air or detection in case someone tries to surprise you with a DT, banshee, or void ray rush. Most of these can't come much earlier than 7 to 7:30. I always try to drop an evolution chamber by about six minutes and grab an early upgrade of some kind, usually melee +1 for terran or ranged +1 for protoss, because having the evo chamber down lets me drop spine crawlers if I should scout anything that makes me think one of those rushes might be coming, and the upgrade makes sure that it serves a purpose if that doesn't happen. Also, poking at their front provides good information -- if they have no army at 7 minutes, or just zealots or marines but they grabbed their gas, it's a good sign one of those might be happening.
Fourth: If you are stuck defending and are out of larva but have money, spine crawlers. Drop them the MOMENT you see the opponent move out, because they may not finish in time to matter on smaller maps, and you may need to use what army you have to hold back an attack while they come up. Spending a lot on spine crawlers is often unnecessary, though, so save it for when you need it and don't go nuts. A spine crawler behind each mineral line and a couple at the natural's choke can really shut down the terrans who blindly go reactor hellion.
Finally: Once you're on three saturated bases and have a macro hatch as well, just try maxing out and attacking. A good deal of the time when I do this, I find the other guy has a lot less than I do, and I wonder what he's been doing all game.
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On December 16 2011 00:43 Mesha wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 23:04 HyTex wrote:
Day[9] is a worthless resource. You can learn more from studying the pro replay he talks about in each Daily than you can listening to his verbose rambling. This is the first time in my life i don't feel alone about the Day9Daily crap. Everybody likes that and shit but i would rather watch my room's wall than daily. I love him as a caster and master of ceremony but his show and his head in the frame for that long... ooo man it's a fucking torture. ..."let's pause... what is he thinking...you might think he is thinking about this but he is thinking about this...lets look at the resources...25 minerals..can i build ..." I just don't understand that so many people like that show. Day9 is great caster and master of ceremony but his show is just bad. My opinion.
I think there are a few dailies that are really worth the hour to go sit and watch them. If you are new to the game and don't already have a foundation, the daily is a good way to build the foundation (Most of the Newby Tuesdays, the one on how to analyze a replay, and how to refine a build). That being said, most of the dailies are just fluff and you would get better if you just spent that hour practicing instead of watching the daily.
@OP If you spend your time focusing on improving, and not focusing on winning, then you will improve much faster. Make the goal of every game to just live as long as possible (especially if you're zerg), and then winning will just come naturally. Learn a safe style and keep playing until you can fix all the holes in your play. If you are zerg, I would suggest something like Spanishiwa's style of mass queens + drones + a few spinecrawlers, especially for ZvP
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On December 16 2011 00:55 DarK[A] wrote:
but most people generalize that getting out of bronze is keeping your money low and a-moving your units to your opponents base.
It's more true for Terran and Protoss. Terran and Protoss have very strong basic unit compositions and a requirement to produce units continuously all-game that mean that if they're building an appropriate number and type of production buildings and keeping them busy, and if they have stronger mechanics than their opponent, then they'll at least have an army with which they can do something at all times.
Zerg's individual units are weaker, anti-air is either very limited (in the form of the queen or spore crawlers) or requires a lair upgrade (hydralisks), and there are some very hard counters vs. their common compositions (like colossi vs. ground units.) Zerg has a very strong answer to just about everything, but it requires more attention to see what your opponent is doing and adapt. Fortunately, the nature of Zerg production is such that a complete upending of one's unit composition is a lot less expensive than for the other races.
If you pitted me against any bronze player who wasn't someone who deliberately tanked their rating to get there, I'll win nearly every game by keeping my money low and a-moving, but that doesn't mean I won't also be watching them and picking a unit composition to crush what they're doing.
Interestingly, when Destiny, on his stream, played on a smurf account for a day or so to prove that unit composition and strategy isn't the issue in lower leagues, he chose a mass queen build to do this. Queens are kind of the exception to the Zerg's unit weaknesses, in that they can be very hard to kill, have a strong attack vs. ground and air, and can heal each other. His demonstration wasn't too convincing to me, because making only queens sidesteps the problems that one runs into with standard Zerg builds IF one has excellent creep spread and transfuse micro. And of course saying "no strategy" doesn't mean that Destiny can turn off the part of his brain that figures out where and when to attack -- that's probably pretty automatic.
In all of my games I hit my timings on my 14/14 pretty on point, and for most of the game I'm waiting on money to become available unless I'm saving up for something.
If this is true, you're not expanding enough or you're not building enough drones. Three fully saturated bases should be enough income to make keeping up seem difficult.
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On December 16 2011 00:36 Mesha wrote:Just to clarify, i wasn't bragging, i was just making a plastic picture for the guy we are trying to help giving him example with what he can be high diamond. And it's not all ins, its good builds, builds have expo and every thing but somehow my play style is blind to everything beyond 10th minute .
... That's completely the opposite, that means you have terrible mechanics, you're just able to follow a build. Your macro is actually probably terrible and that's the main portion on mechanics.
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On December 16 2011 01:16 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:55 DarK[A] wrote:
but most people generalize that getting out of bronze is keeping your money low and a-moving your units to your opponents base. It's more true for Terran and Protoss. Terran and Protoss have very strong basic unit compositions and a requirement to produce units continuously all-game that mean that if they're building an appropriate number and type of production buildings and keeping them busy, and if they have stronger mechanics than their opponent, then they'll at least have an army with which they can do something at all times. Zerg's individual units are weaker, anti-air is either very limited (in the form of the queen or spore crawlers) or requires a lair upgrade (hydralisks), and there are some very hard counters vs. their common compositions (like colossi vs. ground units.) Zerg has a very strong answer to just about everything, but it requires more attention to see what your opponent is doing and adapt. Fortunately, the nature of Zerg production is such that a complete upending of one's unit composition is a lot less expensive than for the other races. If you pitted me against any bronze player who wasn't someone who deliberately tanked their rating to get there, I'll win nearly every game by keeping my money low and a-moving, but that doesn't mean I won't also be watching them and picking a unit composition to crush what they're doing. Interestingly, when Destiny, on his stream, played on a smurf account for a day or so to prove that unit composition and strategy isn't the issue in lower leagues, he chose a mass queen build to do this. Queens are kind of the exception to the Zerg's unit weaknesses, in that they can be very hard to kill, have a strong attack vs. ground and air, and can heal each other. His demonstration wasn't too convincing to me, because making only queens sidesteps the problems that one runs into with standard Zerg builds IF one has excellent creep spread and transfuse micro. And of course saying "no strategy" doesn't mean that Destiny can turn off the part of his brain that figures out where and when to attack -- that's probably pretty automatic. Show nested quote +In all of my games I hit my timings on my 14/14 pretty on point, and for most of the game I'm waiting on money to become available unless I'm saving up for something. If this is true, you're not expanding enough or you're not building enough drones. Three fully saturated bases should be enough income to make keeping up seem difficult.
I worded that pretty poorly. By the time I'm on 3+ bases I'm having a lot of trouble finding things to spend money on. I mean early timings in the build.
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On December 16 2011 01:23 DarK[A] wrote:
I worded that pretty poorly. By the time I'm on 3+ bases I'm having a lot of trouble finding things to spend money on. I mean early timings in the build.
Once you're maxed out, of course, it's OK to let money pile up, though teching up can be a good choice. If you're having trouble finding things to spend money on before you're maxed, you probably are either missing larva injects or not building extra hatches early enough. I try to get a first expo up around 20-25 supply unless my opponent is rushing me, then a macro hatch maybe around 40 and a third by about 60.
Ideally, you'll be making larva faster than you can spend your money, and you'll be having trouble moving your fingers fast enough to spend the money you are making.
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On December 16 2011 01:32 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:23 DarK[A] wrote:
I worded that pretty poorly. By the time I'm on 3+ bases I'm having a lot of trouble finding things to spend money on. I mean early timings in the build. Once you're maxed out, of course, it's OK to let money pile up, though teching up can be a good choice. If you're having trouble finding things to spend money on before you're maxed, you probably are either missing larva injects or not building extra hatches early enough. I try to get a first expo up around 20-25 supply unless my opponent is rushing me, then a macro hatch maybe around 40 and a third by about 60. Ideally, you'll be making larva faster than you can spend your money, and you'll be having trouble moving your fingers fast enough to spend the money you are making.
Tech. That amount of people I see as zerg sit on Lair tech, not even doing upgrades on their units ...
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On December 16 2011 01:34 coko wrote:
Tech. That amount of people I see as zerg sit on Lair tech, not even doing upgrades on their units ...
Yeah, I used to be a lot worse about that than I am now. If you fall behind far enough on your upgrades, it may not matter what you're doing, you'll still lose.
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On December 16 2011 01:34 coko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 01:32 Lysenko wrote:On December 16 2011 01:23 DarK[A] wrote:
I worded that pretty poorly. By the time I'm on 3+ bases I'm having a lot of trouble finding things to spend money on. I mean early timings in the build. Once you're maxed out, of course, it's OK to let money pile up, though teching up can be a good choice. If you're having trouble finding things to spend money on before you're maxed, you probably are either missing larva injects or not building extra hatches early enough. I try to get a first expo up around 20-25 supply unless my opponent is rushing me, then a macro hatch maybe around 40 and a third by about 60. Ideally, you'll be making larva faster than you can spend your money, and you'll be having trouble moving your fingers fast enough to spend the money you are making. Tech. That amount of people I see as zerg sit on Lair tech, not even doing upgrades on their units ...
Yeah I typically have upgrades constantly going, sometimes with 2 evo chambers.
In response to the other post, I usually expand on 21 food unless I have early aggression from my opponent that I'm dealing with. I definitely don't throw down as many macro hatches as I should, though.
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On December 15 2011 05:58 Kamikiri wrote:Diamond/GM Level is a silly thing to say first of all, but you remind me of my friend who came from competitive cod and thought he was going to be the best at starcraft 2 and was stuck in bronze after 300 games without knowing how to improve. Basically what it comes down to is you need to work on mechanics, you say you don't know how to improve anymore? You are in Bronze League man that is like insanely easy to say whats wrong or know what you are doing wrong unless you completely have 0 understanding on how this game works which can not be true since you watch so much starcraft 2. You need to focus on your mechanics and improving your mechanics(Macro mostly). Than you need to work on having somewhat of a build order which is not a huge deal until you get to the higher leagues. Its also important for you to know that no matter how you lose, it is not because of balance, and if you ever blame balance you will improve very slowly at this game. If you truly can not for the life of you figure out what you did wrong when you lose, you need to check out the thread on teamliquid that shows you how to analyze your replays + Show Spoiler +A good mindset to improve, focusing on what to improve and always blaming your self for losing is very important. A few things I noticed about your post was that you slightly seem to think balance may be a tad bit of an issue such as the part with "only one of the games lost was to protoss cheese" Perhaps I am wrong by the way I interpreted it but even games such as that can teach you a whole lot. If you have any questions or need help in general you can message me on TL.
Analyzing your replays is one of the greatest ways to improve. A lot of things become obvious when you watch through your opponents vision or through both. You cannot just grind out games and expect to improve. You have to be making conscious efforts on certain aspects that you know for a fact to be bad. I cannot say what you are doing wrong, but I imagine it is that you are stuck in the same gear, and you aren't really shifting out of it.
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On December 16 2011 01:46 Hexxed wrote:
Analyzing your replays is one of the greatest ways to improve. A lot of things become obvious when you watch through your opponents vision or through both
Absolutely true, though I find that many people who feel they're stuck may just not know what to look for when looking at their own replays. Hopefully some of the specific comments in this thread will give the OP some ideas.
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On December 15 2011 05:42 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:21 FabledIntegral wrote:
A consistent Diamond/GM level Zerg? How does that work :o. A GM would go 50-0 without dropping a single game to a Diamond, assuming he KNEW it was a Diamond (thus he wouldn't do any risky builds). Not true, I've beaten GMs as Diamond and I know a friend who has as well 50-0 is a bit of a stretch
I'm midhigh masters and I have trouble taking a game out of 50 against a top masters player.
From low to high masters is like bronze to masters all over again in terms of skill difference.
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Yeah I guess just overall it gets frustrating when most of TL and reddit just says "macro better" or something to that nature. I've played along with Day9's mental checklist video, so I can build and rally units, hit injects, spread creep, and micro /split my units at the same time pretty consistently. You'd think that would be enough to beat 90% of bronze players but I guess it might not be.
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the SC2 learning curve is very wide then narrows extremely fast in the last last 1%
this game is honestly easy compared to other games to get "good" at, it is only at the top level where it becomes a challenge.
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Alright so.. a few big things I noticed that you weren't doing/ problems I noticed with your gameplay:
1) Scouting.
Yes, you scouted him early with a Drone, that's fine and good. But you're Zerg! You have the fastest units in the game (Zerglings) as well as the earliest flying units in the game (Overlords). You should have a few Overlords and Zerglings positioned in strategic places around the map (Overlords over water/high ground near enemies base, Zerglings at Xel'Naga watch towers and a couple patrolling expansions nearby your enemies base). And don't forget Overseers once you get Lair.
I checked the replay, and even though you had the army advantage nearly the entire game, you almost never had much more map vision than your opponent.. You should see exactly when he decides to leave his base and is moving in for an attack, so you have enough time to prepare (make attacking units).
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2) Afraid to attack.
I noticed 2 times in the game where you crushed his army completely, then delayed the counter-attack by several minutes.
The first around 31 minutes, his army was gone at 31:20 yet you waited to attack him til 34:40. If you destroy a big army like that, your opponent isn't going to have much left at home if you attack right away. Plus you have Zerglings to reinforce, which only take a few seconds to get across the map after they spawn.
The second was around 38 minutes... You crushed his very small army, and didn't attack until 42 minutes.
Not only does this give him time to rebuild his army, it drags the game on longer.. leaving more time for you to make mistakes and for your opponent to damage your economy.
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3) Too passive.
You should either be expanding aggressively or harassing/attacking your opponent aggressively. The better choice for a particular game will become more clear the more you play and get used to scouting and are able to recognize what your opponent is doing.
In this particular game, you didn't actually attempt to attack his base until around 17 minutes.. And it was a very unsuccessful attack. You actually forgot about your Mutas for that attack... Which could have helped at least a little.
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4) Spread your creep!
This one is very plain and simple; you didn't spread creep at any point in the game!
Creep serves a couple purposes for Zerg. It's good for scouting (anywhere you have creep tumors, you have vision on the map). It also gives your units a significant speed boost, which means your melee units spend less time running towards tanks and dying.
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Of course there are plenty of little things and I'm sure a few more big things that you could have done better, but these are just a few that I noticed that, if improved, can help you become a better player.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Good luck!
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On December 16 2011 01:17 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 00:36 Mesha wrote:On December 15 2011 16:01 IamNatural wrote: cuz all-in = skill right Just to clarify, i wasn't bragging, i was just making a plastic picture for the guy we are trying to help giving him example with what he can be high diamond. And it's not all ins, its good builds, builds have expo and every thing but somehow my play style is blind to everything beyond 10th minute . ... That's completely the opposite, that means you have terrible mechanics, you're just able to follow a build. Your macro is actually probably terrible and that's the main portion on mechanics.
I think we have different understandings of these words. Since english is not my native language i consider mechanics as the ability to efficiently spend my APM. By doing that i watch my economy, army, build, micro in battles and eventually multitask as best i can. You say i have terrible mechanics and say i just follow a build. It is true that i follow a build but answer me this- could i rape a master with only following a build or do i need decent mechanics to manage everything to actually do something with that build? I don't know, i really hate to discuss all this subjects in deep since its hard to express what i think and everything could be rationalized and turned up side down so its never ending story. Its true that I AM NOT a macro player. I said it myself. But i still think i have good mechanics but just don't like long games and never actually practice long macro games so my mechanics for that part of the game are pure shit. Macro is main portion of mechanics but it just not the same to macro up to 10 minutes and say play a 30 minute game with constant harassing and stuff. If you are pokebunny the pro player, you know more than me and you are probably right about everything but the thing i was saying is true in my case - but i can't do anything if what i said is misunderstood or misheard.
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Whenever you lose, make sure you know why and what to do instead. Watch your replays and pinpoint the cause of your loss.
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Remember, also, that skill doesn't rise linearly. You'll have jumps and spurts and then plane out for a while. There's way too much info here and elsewhere on how to improve for me to comment on that, but know that having a bad day (i.e. losing 6 straight games, or 9 or 12 if you're me >.>) doesn't mean you're stuck indefinitely. Just keep a cool head and be a student of the game and eventually you'll have another break through.
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On December 16 2011 02:42 Sippycup wrote:
Ok, so as requested I've gone ahead and got a replay up and running and loaded to gamereplays.org.
I watched your replay in some detail. Here are some thoughts:
First, you should be expanding faster. By the time you got a third, your main was clogged with drones. Even after the third was up, your main was oversaturated and your third didn't have enough drones. Of course, you also had a ton of money piled up, which leads to point 2...
Second: I'd recommend working on improving your larva inject timing. It usually breaks down for most people at some point, but you'll be best off if you can keep it going at least until you have four hatches up, whether expansions or macro hatches.
Third: None of the above will help if you don't use your larvae as they are produced. Here's a key factoid about larva production: hatches generate more larvae two different ways, with injects and with a default regeneration that's on a timer. The timer-based regeneration stops if you have more than 3 larvae unused at the hatch. To get the most out of that regeneration, you should be using your larvae as soon as you possibly can after they appear and do everything you can to avoid piling up past 3 until you're maxed on supply.
Basically, the overall picture I saw in that game was that you're not earning as much income as you can because you're slow to expand and slow to transfer drones. Also, because you only checked your larva status intermittently, you'd let a crap ton pile up and then spend them all in one burst, which deprived you of the extra stream of them you would have had from their regeneration.
There was a point where you were at 158/170-something supply, with over 2k minerals and 1k gas, and about 30 larvae piled up. That was enough to get you to max supply if you'd used them.
Here are some things I do that might help you out, given all of this:
I hotkey my hatcheries and hit that hotkey every few seconds no matter what I'm doing in the game. The moment I see available larva, I'll spam something, drones, units, whatever makes sense. Get in the habit of checking your larva status when you're looking elsewhere on the map to scout, or whatever.
I know when a base is saturated by ctrl-clicking on the drones. Two and a half rows, or 20 drones, is optimal assuming two gas geysers are up. Up to 28 drones increases the mineral income from the base, but it's better to take the extra 8 to another base coming up.
Set milestones for your expansions. Something arbitrary like expanding on 20, 60, 100 supply is probably a good place to start. Expand whenever you are out of larva -- but don't saturate more than three bases, because that will eat into your army. Instead, transfer drones from base to base as they get mined out. The additional hatcheries serve as extra larva production until you're ready to start mining from them.
A few points that are probably less important:
Particularly vs. Terran, focus on spreading creep rapidly across the map toward them. The creep tumors give you vision and a LOT of warning, which is very important, because it is essential to engage a moving Terran army when tanks are unsieged, unless you have an enormous numerical advantage. Also, speed-upgraded banelings on creep move rather fast.
Try placing a ling at each location the other player may go to expand. Then, when they show up to grab the expansion, you'll see them. Even if they see you doing this they probably won't run around the map just to kill one ling per empty expo.
You could refine your early game build order a good deal more. Your first priority after your pool comes up should probably be to get a queen immediately. Ling speed can wait a few seconds. Anyway, a 14 gas 14 pool build optimally will leave you with about 250 minerals and 100 gas when the pool comes up, which is enough to start speed and a queen immediately, and having the queen up will get you ahead faster in economy.
Around the 24 minute mark, you ran into the tank/PF/thor defended front with about 60 zerglings and 16 or so banelings with speed, and thousands of minerals and gas in the bank. Your attack didn't do that much damage. Now, tank and PF are optimal anti-zergling and baneling defense, and that many thors are optimal anti-muta defense, so I probably would have just avoided attacking there and then. However, if you'd spent your money on turning those 60 zerglings into banelings, and rolled them all in there directly at the PF, you would have destroyed your opponent's only mining base and probably all the SCVs there too.
Basically, if I were to play a Terran who turtles that long on two bases, my plan is to cover the entire map with creep and expos, max out right outside their front door, build up a ton of resources and larva, tech up, and wait. The longer they stay in there, the worse it gets for them, the creep lets me see everything they're doing before they do it, and all I have to do is send in an overseer every few minutes to make sure they're not getting clever with battlecruisers or something.
Edit: I don't mind playing super-passively vs. a turtling Terran. It's remarkably easy to throw a maxed-out army at a Terran front and lose everything if they're hyper-focused on defending. However, I do watch and shut down their expansions, and once their couple of bases are completely mined out, they have no choice but to come to me, at which point I can clean up.
The Terrans to be afraid of are the ones who drop you every 2 minutes for the whole game, then show up with a sizeable army.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
I just want to say one last advice and i ll stop spamming your thread . Don't measure your progress on daily basis!!! Measure your progress and compare with your previous skills on at least monthly basis! Good luck man. That's it from me.
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Just make sure you constantly inject, if you find yourself with a ton of extra minerals outside of an incoming battle, make a lot of overlords so you dont get supply blocked at the wrong moment later on.
Also, try to harass them if you find yourself not knowing what to do, most bronze players will stop whatever it is they are doing and watch battles if any of their units or structures are being attacked.
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Truly, the only way to improve at this game is to play the macro game. You have to not care about your record, and rather care only about improving your macro game. First focus on your macro; once mastered, look into the "cheese" builds that pro-players employ to surprise their opponents in series, as these can be useful for series and taking quick games on the ladder if you've, say, played one too many ZvZ's. It's also always nice to have variety. You have to just force yourself to play a macro game. It's the only way to fundamentally improve. Even if you could rush in and kill your opponent...keep macroing up, draw the game out for as long as you can. It will really help with the multitasking.
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On December 16 2011 04:00 CadaverSculptor wrote:
Even if you could rush in and kill your opponent...keep macroing up, draw the game out for as long as you can. It will really help with the multitasking.
Plus, practicing a macro game as a rule will force you to practice identifying and defending rushes of various kinds, and believe me, there's nothing at all like seeing someone attempt some all-in rush that you spotted three minutes before and precisely countered.
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On December 16 2011 04:00 CadaverSculptor wrote:
Truly, the only way to improve at this game is to play the macro game. You have to not care about your record, and rather care only about improving your macro game. First focus on your macro; once mastered, look into the "cheese" builds that pro-players use to surprise their opponents in series, as these can be useful for series and taking quick games on the ladder if you've played, say, one too many ZvZ's. It's also always nice to have variety. You have to just force yourself to play a macro game. It's the only way to fundamentally improve. Even if you could rush in and kill your opponent...keep macroing up, draw the game out for as long as you can. It will really help with the multitasking.
I definitely believe in not caring about one's record and focusing on improving only (no.1 in Bronze is more like an insult, and a positive win rate is only useful to tell you that something has improved, if you haven't worked on anything, you receive no information). Yet, don't play only macro games, learn 1 or 2 cheeses. Go into a match where you know you need to execute perfectly for 5-10 minutes or need to play from a huge disadvantage if you mess up. I've actually become a much better player from learning the 111, as it forces one to think differently than in a macro game. Micro and tactics play a huge role, and as I only really won by out-macroing before, I've learnt a ton. But macro is still the ultimate goal, just spend 50-100 games drilling some tricky all-in build.
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If you are still stuck in bronze, you almost certainly have some fundamental problem(s) with your macro. I just saw that you posted a couple of replays, which is a great way to get some advice.
Having said that, I feel that the main problem most people in bronze have is they're trying to do too much at once. Keep it simple. Learn 1 build. Make it a simple, safe and standard build. Something like speedling expand. Don't worry about different builds for different MUs. If expanding is throwing your game into a tailspin, don't do it. If scouting (or multitasking in general) is messing you up, don't do it. Don't do anything that disrupts just refining down one build. Once you get that down so you can do it in your sleep and it's very crisp, add something to it (expand, scouting, etc). Refine this down so you have it cold. Repeat. Eventually, learn more builds and how to adapt your build to what your opponent is doing, but only after you have the basics down.
Don't worry about winning. Your goal is not to win, it's to learn. Yeah, I know, it's hard to lose. Any competitive person will hate losing, but to improve you have to get past that and look at your losses as opportunities to learn so that you'll get better and not lose to that again.
I see a lot of people who "practice" by just throwing themselves at the ladder, over and over and over, until they get frustrated. If you don't know what you're doing wrong, just mashing out games isn't going to fix it. Practice is an important part of learning, but only if it's smart practice. Find out what you're doing wrong, and spend 10 games doing nothing but make sure that it doesn't happen (or however many until you feel like you have it figured out).
Last of all, don't get discouraged. SC2 is a hard game, and it takes almost everybody a LONG time to improve. Those "I made masters in a month" people as usually full of it, or they cheesed their way to victory. Think of it like getting to an expert level at playing basketball, how long would that take you? Years, I'd wager.
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well, i think Z has a steep learning curve as you rely a lot on scouting (and understand what you see). So you need to have good knowledge of the other races in order to advance. You can compensate bad scouting and bad game sense by playing a cautious build order which basically hits all the timings (early pool for safe expansion, get detection in time, get some safety spines, larvae pooling). If you train to execute a safe build perfectly, you can reach diamond no problem. At this point you'll probably need to start cutting corners and take some risks in order to keep your win rate.
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Masters zerg/protoss that offers free 30 min lessons. Pst me if your interested
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On December 16 2011 04:47 Sippycup wrote:
Got another replay. ZvP this time. Tried to be more aggressive and focus a tad less on my economy. I ended up having way more resources than I needed again, only supply blocked myself 2-3 times.
Watched this one too.
Again, I think that working on using all your larvae as they come up will be the best thing you can possibly do for your macro. It's one thing to have money piling up, but if you have a ton of larvae, a ton of money, and a ton of excess supply, you could have a bigger army in seconds if you attend to it.
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On December 15 2011 05:26 GhostKorean wrote:
As bronze your goal should be
1. Never stop producing scvs
2. Keep your money as low as possible
It's alright if you stay on one base the whole game in bronze you'll still win if you spend all your money on one base with good mineral saturation
As for the cheese, learn a build order and do it over and over to get it as refined as possible. Do things like scouting at the same food every single game to get used to every single timing. Micro should not be a focus at all. Instead, just send your units to attack and go back to make more units even vs a 2gate proxy. Learn reactions to different cheese builds through experience, and since you're doing the same build over and over your reaction to the cheese should be mechanically performed every game
The basic harvesters, money, and not get supply blocked will apply all the way to diamond. There are so many people in diamond league that don't make enough probes and can't spend their money on 2 or 3 bases still. It is definitely the key to get to masters or at least diamond for sure. If you can spend your money, constantly make probes, and not get supply blocked too early (you'll die to a rush) you will be able to find out how to play the game and defend against strategies because you're doing it right. The money that comes with making consistent probes is extremely significant.
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Advice:
- Play 3 games in a row, don't stop in between games. As soon as you hit the score screen, queue up another game.
- Once you finish, pick one of the games to review. Ideally a game you lost, and a game you were most confused about.
- Review the replay of that game, and find 3 things that you can work on pertaining to what happened in that game specifically. Make sure your criticisms are constructive and they are things you can realistically improve on in the next few games.
- Repeat. As much as you can.
^ This advice should get you into diamond at least, and GM if you have enough hours to spend which you probably don't.
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Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
Hey man, just by accident i stumbled upon one of dApollo's videos and it is titled "Starcraft II - Zerg Tutorial Working up from Bronze League - Part1". Hahaha, it is perfect for you. Here is the link dApollo zerg tutorial. He is good at what he does, he is good player and a caster. From what i have seen in this video, he is good teacher also.
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I've had the same problem as you when i first picked up the game. I was getting roflstomped in bronze not because of mechanics but because i had no clue what i was reading on my opponents. Had no clue how to stop bunker rushes, or all the pretty toss allins. Didnt use hotkeys, supply blocks and so on.
How i got out of bronze quickly was with 7 rr, belive it or not, and that got me up to gold. After i got up to gold i actually started reading my opponents starting build easily and reacted properly. Im not saying you should cheese non-stop but you rly need to get out of bronze to enjoy some better game.
Mass some games with a good executed 7rr and you will see how much its gonna improve your early game mechanics.
Only after you start understanding the game you should actually bother with fancy stuff. I know cheesing ur way out of bronze sounds lame but only after you hit better opponents u can start progressing as a player.
In 4 months time,on and off, playing ladder ive got up to high diamond and my understanding of the game improved immensely.
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On December 16 2011 00:08 Sippycup wrote:
So far today in my matches against hard and very hard Protoss I've noticed that around 10 mins I seem to have a really huge surplus of minerals, and I'm pretty sure it's due to over-droning, but I'm not 100% sure. I've been trying to take a third around 10-11 mins, and it seems to be working, but I still have a surplus of minerals and a tad over on gas. I can never seem to whittle things down to that 0 level.
EDIT: On second thought, maybe it's due to me just building units as a reactionary measure when I notice some kind of push is coming. I think things will be totally different when I'm playing on ladder again.
Does that mean I'm focusing TOO much on my economy mid game?
It probably means you're missing larvae injects. It also means you're definitely on the right track. The first step is to improve your macro/economy. Something you've seem to have accomplished. Now you need to start focussing on those injects. A small hint by the way: ctrl+click on a drone in a base. If you see 4 drones on the bottom line, that means that base is fully saturated. No need for more drones there, so just rally that hatch to a mineral patch in another base. The trick now is to try to keep those minerals down by making units. Keep in mind though, your first priority should always be to drone as much as possible and only make units if you feel some early aggression is coming your way.
But yeah, once you're around that 10-11 minute mark and you see +1K minerals start making units. Throw down a macro hatch too.
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your Country52797 Posts
Making workers is not enough past bronze league.
Silver-plat players will consistantly make the same number of workers, with micro being the deciding factor, and I have seen a very small gap between the silvers that make half as many workers as I do and the silvers that make only 30-40 workers (large difference). The trick in low leagues, I believe, is to grasp all the fundamentals and then focus on 1-2 areas at a time.
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I can give you a bit of advice, I only just left Bronze about a week or so ago(to Gold, I'm also a Zerg). It's a lot harder than just making drones/scvs/probes. In bronze you're going to basically see three types of play, ground all ins, mass air and crappy macro builds.
I used the standard Zerg safe build for myself(probably not the best but it worked for me in bronze):
build drones until you have 9 supply
then build overlord at 9 supply
then build drones until 14 supply
then build extractor and then pool (stick 3 drones on gas when extractor finishes and mine 100 gas then take them out, and start ling speed)
drone up to 15 drones
build queen at 15 supply
build overlord at 17 supply
build starter lings at 17 supply (need 2-6 lings = 1-3 larva worth) (also put 3 drones back on gas if you want/need gas units like banes/roaches)
build expand at around 22 food
build spine when expand is up if needed (aka silly harass marines/zealots)
extra stuff:
Lair at 40 supply (for the mutas :D!)
Roach Warren at around 30 supply
Build 3-4 spines if you see an all in coming and then get roach or ling/bane depending on composition
For Toss/Terran:
Scout tons in the game with sacrificial overlords/lings to find out what they're making in their base and what units their amassing at their gates (Scout with a drone when you build your 12th drone, and send overlords to the nearest 2 bases either side of you at the start of the game, then scout every 2 in game mins but try to keep some starter lings/your scouting drone running around their base to force them to follow you and distract them)
What you need to look out for is 2 base only with no expands and a shit ton of marines/stalkers/whatever is up there waiting above the ramp = 2 base ground all in. Then you need to get at least 3 bases (stay on two if he is just about to push out) and get some info on what sort of stuff he has, loads of marines/stalkers/zealots + tanks/immortals + maybe 1-2 Colossi = ling/bane + muta
If you see a ton of spines/cannons/turrets/bunkers then you know it's a 1-2 base air all in (much less likely with Terran but some tards go battle cruisers...). At this stage you get a few queens (aim for around 4-5 against void ray harass) rush to spire (try and get lair around 40 food) with two base and go for corrupter (better at killing air than muta but useless otherwise unless you get broodlords) if it is air only, but Muta can work well when they're in small numbers and is better for your counter push once you get roaches + Bane to destroy cannons/bunkers etc.
If you see them taking their third earlish (in bronze like 15-20 mins) then you know he wants to macro and you can go ahead and take as many bases as you like, just watch out for drops by spreading overlords and make sure your creep spread is up and you get the right unit composition for their army by scouting with overlord/some lings.
For Zerg:
This is a horrible matchup as it is very knife edge even at bronze (creep spread, not losing workers/queens to lings/banes and larva injecting are super super important here more so than other matches):
I prefer doing a 9 pool with ZvZ as you can apply early pressure and not risk getting an expand, but it can easily backfire (make sure you scout as well, I usually scout with 9th supply drone if going 14 pool/gas or 6th supply if doing 9 pool). You can do the 14 gas/pool build still but you need a spine crawler in the mineral line next to the pool once the pool is up to deter the lings, and your queen should stay wedged between the pool and the hatchery to prevent lings from killing it off. Once that is done transition to ling/bane and be really careful of his banelings and then you can transition with roach once his ling forces have been dealt with.
If you just see spine crawlers at his base... be worried he is getting fast mutas usually so drop the evo chamber and get some spores up and get another queen. Once lair is done you can get hyrdas to defend against them and go for a roach/hydra push, but in all honesty I feel like if I don't get to muta first then the game is over, but you can hinder him if you kill off his starting mutas with your queens/spores. One way if you're behind tech wise and he gets a few mutas you can immediately build more queens at your most likely two bases (kill off mutas and transfuse micro them), and then straight away just immediately pull all workers and worker/roach rush with as many as possible. You can in most situations easily kill off his base before he does yours in with mutas, and they'll GG as soon as they see it coming.
Also general things:
Always try to expand every 7 in game minutes.
Always Larva Inject (use the inject then shift + backspace and click method)
Always get upgrades through out the game for ground/flying(if you're using flying units which you should be, muta are awesome)
Always Spend your money, if you see above say 700 minerals (and you can't keep it down through spending on drones/units, drop down another macro hatch or expand)
Always aim for around 60-70 drones total (if some die you make more) it should be 24 drones for minerals on both bases + 3 on each gas so for bases = 48 + 12 = 60 drones :D!!!! (you can check this by cntrl clicking a drone to see how many you have and just selecting them normally)
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EPT
